How do we know that the Church has infallible authority?

[guanophore]

Ah, so the church died for our salvation and through its blood we are healed.

Jesus makes his crucified flesh and blood that was given for our healing available through His Church.

I am not saying the church is not necessary and we should certainly obey the elders in authority. I am saying that only belief in Christ through faith is needed for salvation. Belief in the authority of the RCC and the papacy is not needed for salvation and totally absent from scripture.

News Flash, kaycee. The Authority Jesus left in charge was Peter. He commissioned Peter to feed and care for the sheep. To the extent that you reject God’s Appointed elder, you reject Him. Furthermore, your assertion that “only belief in Christ” is needed is not scriptural, or Apostlic. It will not do to pick out one verse of the NT, and leave out all the rest. In doing so, you are rejecting the Teaching of the Apostles.

I can accept that answer. I don’t think that one should chose to be catholic unless they can in good concious submit to the authority of the RCC and the Pope. Why else would one be Catholic?

Because that is the Church that Jesus founded!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The reason people believed in Jesus in the first place is because His church told them about Him in the first place.

Either the people who told other people about Jesus told the truth and had the authority to speak the truth about Him or they didn’t.

As long as James 2:24 is the truth salvation by faith alone is a Satanic lie!

Even if someone outside the disciples believed in Jesus–Jesus commissioned the discipled to preach the gospel and baptize all nations.

He gave them that authority! So even if a person had faith in Jesus they either respected the authority of the disicples to Baptize and authoratatively preach the gospel that Jesus orally gave them or they didn’t.

They didn’t have a choice to respect that authority or not–Jesus gave that authority–to not respect it–to not respect the authority given to the church by Jesus is plain and simple not to respect Jesus!

And Why did Jesus say “Paul why do you persecute Me?”

Could it even be remotely possible that Jesus was being consistent–hadn’t He earlier said to the apostles “Whoever receives you receives me and whoever Rejects you Rejects me?”

When Saul was persecuting the early christians he was Rejecting them who Jesus had sent!

See you can’t reject the authoratative church that Jesus sent because when you do you reject Him!

Jesus said anyone who will not listen to the church should be treated like a publican or a sinner.

The question one should ask themselves is “Do I listen to that church that Jesus is talking about?” If you Reject its authority you persecute it exactly like Saul!

If you are truely converted like Saul was to Paul–then you will respect its authority. Did not Paul go see Peter and the rest of the disicples?

When he saw them he was not given a list of scriptures to believe in–he heard them give the Oral Authoratative Truth that Jesus Orally gave them.

He respected that truth and their authority. And you know what? Respecting that authority to Orally give the Sacred traditions that Jesus gave them did not Kill Paul!

Why does it kill Protestants?

One simple reason–the whole thing does come down to authority.

If Protestants can’t reject that authority then they have no leg to stand on. Alot of them do know this–that is why they always try to run away to only their interpretation of written scriptures given much later.

Paul respected Peter as head of the church. Tell me this: How could Paul go preach the gospel if he hadn’t heard the gospel from the disciples who were eyewitness and had actually Heard the words that Jesus gave?

Paul preached the gospel Before any wrtitten scripture was gvien him by the Holy Spirit–his letters were written before the gospels.

The only way he could preach the gospel was by hearing it from the disciples who had rthe deposit of the faith!

They had the authority that Jesus gave them–it didn’t come from Sola Scrioptura or from the Bible–it came from Jesus Himself!

And that gospel could not be preached by an Invisible church that had no authority! It couldn’t be believed by hearers of that word that didn’t respect that authority?

And why did people back then trust that authority? Because the words that the disciples preached–and those words about the authority that Jesus gave them–seemed consistent with the truth!

They had been with Jesus more than anyone. And don’t think for a minute that the fact of the fruits they exhibited did not make a difference!

When Peter prayed to Tabitha and she rose from the dead–do you think people said “Who cares–that doesn’t prove any authority–I only believe written scriptures?”

No! The fruits bore witness to the truth and the authority that Jesus gave!

And none of the people back then who Believed and had not seen with their own eyes Jesus or heard His words to the disicples–none of them were bothered by that authority or the authority of the church.

If there was a problem with the church’s authority–with bishops who the disicples and the apostles had laid hands on–there would have been a Protestant church in the 1st century.

There wasn’t! The Holy Spirit guided them into all truth–people respected the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who does not respect that same church does not respect the Holy Spirit. It’s that simple!

 

[JohnnyReb]

Most Protestants have been raised with Sola Scriptura, and really don’t know the identity of the pillar and bulwark of the truth. They also are taught to believe that the HS will guide them into all truth, so that whatever they think the scripture means, that is what is true.

Well that’s simply not true in reality. It might sound great in theory, but it does not work in real life, hence all the competing claims of all denominations (derived from Sola Scriptura, no less) and why I’m coming home.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Because that is the Church that Jesus founded!

I’m convinced, but I don’t think Kaycee is.

 

[mikezieg8]

HI,
In your response does that mean the Bible makes mistakes?. The Bible is not mistaken and shows everything. The facts are not mistakes. God shows (Humanity)us and you how sinful we really are and in need of God who is perfect and w/O sin. God who is a spirit(JN4) came in the flesh thru a virgin woman which was foretold in (Isaiah7:14) around 700Yrs. prior to Jesus birth. (Rom8:3 )Paul writes about the incarnation.
Granted versions are being written by man in their own opinions or understanding.EX: The Message bible
I sure hope you are serious and not having fun of some sort. Who do you know that would die for You? Do you think you would be worth dying for? Better yet, who would you die for? Would you give your life for an enemy of yours, that they might live? This is what Christ did for ALL mankind. His kindness leads to repentance(Rom.2:4) Read( Eph2:7-10)
Have a good fourth.

Mikezieg8

 

[guanophore]

HI,
In your response does that mean the Bible makes mistakes?.

No, but many people make mistakes interpreting it.

The Bible is not mistaken and shows everything. The facts are not mistakes.

This is some of that erroneous sola scriptura thinking I was speaking about. The Bible does not “show everything”. I wish it did! I would love to know what Jesus was talking about for 40 days while he was rattling around after the resurrection!

God shows (Humanity)us and you how sinful we really are and in need of God who is perfect and w/O sin. God who is a spirit(JN4) came in the flesh thru a virgin woman which was foretold in (Isaiah7:14) around 700Yrs. prior to Jesus birth. (Rom8:3 )Paul writes about the incarnation.

I agree with you that the Bible has the basics unto salvation, however, it was never intended to be separated from the sacred tratition which produced it.

Granted versions are being written by man in their own opinions or understanding.EX: The Message bible

Not only poor translations, but people reading who are uneducated and uninformed, resulting in erroneous interpretations.

I sure hope you are serious and not having fun of some sort. Who do you know that would die for You? Do you think you would be worth dying for? Better yet, who would you die for? Would you give your life for an enemy of yours, that they might live? This is what Christ did for ALL mankind. His kindness leads to repentance(Rom.2:4) Read( Eph2:7-10)
Have a good fourth.

Mikezieg8

It is no joke. The Bible does not say that it has everything in it, either, and it directs people who have disputes about it to go outside of itself.

 

[guanophore]

I’m convinced, but I don’t think Kaycee is.

I can assure you that kaycee is not!

Rom 5:1
"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

As a former Catholic having been baptized and confirmed, my peace with God was conditional on my staying in a state of grace.

I have true Peace knowing my salvation is not of myself and has been secured by GOD.

 

[Sams_Son]

Do we believe in a church for salvation? I would rather believe in Jesus and you should too.

Catholic and Protestants alike love Jesus. We both accept that Jesus was the second person of the Trinity; We believe in the Trinity, we believe in the virgin birth; and we we believe in the resurrection. Our differences seem to hinge on justification. How are we saved? Catholics believe we are justified by faith and works together. Protestants believe we are justified by faith alone. One of us is wrong…

Which group is wrong?

Really, which group is wrong?

I think the question can be answered by delving into the issue of authority. The questioner asked “How do we know the Church has infallible authority?” Well, one of the responders stated that he believes the Bible is the source of infallibility. Well if the Bible did not exist at the time of Christ and many decades after that how were the earliest Christians saved? The answer is simple…By word of mouth, first from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ…to the Apostles, and then to us. Sometime during the fourth Century a group of men…yes men…I’ll say it again…Men…gathered together led by the Holy Spirit (history will support the fact that these men were bishops in union with the Pope) readers who disagree…please don’t disagree just because your pastor told you this want true…check it out yourself. I promise…I’ll do the same. Getting back to my point…These Men led by the Holy Spirit decided which books were inspired and which were not, and that is when the Bible as we know it became what is is today. Well it those Men were not infallible…then how can you state unequivocally that the Bible is infallible. The Church…the Pope must have been infallible or else the Bible…made of of a series of books which that counsel deem inspired would be wrong. And if they were wrong then the Bible you so love could be wrong. Please think about this…For me it was the turning point in my Catholic faith. It’s all about authority and who has it.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It really is sad that some people think that Jesus came and died for us just so that we could be justified by a legal fiction!

True justification = Continuance in transforming grace.

That kind of grace eventually will sancty us all the way to perfection so that we can enter Heaven.

The dung comvered by Jesus’ righteousness advanced by Martin Luther not only lets what is Unclean into Heaven–it renders Jesus as not being God enough to transform us to perfection–if not in our lives here–then in Purgatory.

Jesus didn’t die just to pronounce us righteous–He died to Transform us to righteousness.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that. The Protestant Once Saved Always Saved crowd can’t stomach that. It would require receptivity to the Master Potter Jesus working with us who are clay until death!

That is Too Hard of them!

Too many people forget the rest of that story in Jeremiah.

See there is some clay that never bends to the Potters’s hands. A beautiful vessel is never made.

Jeremiah was commanded by God to take the vessels before the Elders of Israel and Smash them against the Rocks.

The message from God was even though Israel was chosen by Him–if they would not bend to His will then they would end up like the ugly vessels–Smashed to pieces.

This would later happen as Israel was destroyed by its enemies.

The “Once Saved Always Saved Crowd”–like the “Ain’t it great I’m a Chosen People Crowd” of Jeremiah’s day will one day end up Smashed to pieces!

Such bending to God’s authority and the authority that Jesus gave to the disciples and leaders of His church would require us to do as Paul said to do and to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling.”

Someone should ask Kaycee if he obeys Paul who gave us that command–inspired by the Holy Spirit–and bearing witness to Jesus?

Anyone who doesn’t “Work out their salvation with fear and trembling” does not obey God. It is that simple!

 

[kaycee]

I’m convinced, but I don’t think Kaycee is.

Thats because the arguments are not very convincing and history does not bear testimony to the papacy until well after Constantine. That is exactly why cardinal Newman proposed the development theory. He admitted that history did not support the claims of the papacy.

 

[kaycee]

It is not an either/or kaycee. There is only one church, it is His Body. He is the Head. They two are not separate from one another. Those who reject the Church have rejected the Head, or tried to chop off the head, maybe?

Apparently not true, the Orthodox church is not condemned by RCC.

 

[kaycee]

News Flash, kaycee. The Authority Jesus left in charge was Peter. He commissioned Peter to feed and care for the sheep. To the extent that you reject God’s Appointed elder, you reject Him.

Peter was not the only one given that task! I have certainly accepted Peter’s authority and all the other apostles authority! They have written to me in God’s Word!

Furthermore, your assertion that “only belief in Christ” is needed is not scriptural, or Apostlic. It will not do to pick out one verse of the NT, and leave out all the rest. In doing so, you are rejecting the Teaching of the Apostles.

Yikes, there are buckets full of verses that speak of Salvation by Faith without any additional requirements. Pleeeaasssse!

 

[Sams_Son]

I’m certainly not a apologist, but your statement that the papacy started after Constantine does not hold up, as the earliest Christian wrote about the successors to Peter and actually listed their names form the third century all the way back to Peter. Look it up. Take a look at Saint Ignatious Writing and Clement of Rome.

 

[Sams_Son]

I’m not trying to be right. My hope is that all believers come together as one. As a Catholic I don’t have to interpret the Bible myself, the Magisterium of the Church does that for me. If the United States needs an interpreter for the Constitution…The Supreme Court then why is it so hard to believe that God would not appoint an interpreter of His Word? HOw can six billion people decide what God’s word means. It doesnt make sense.

 

[kaycee]

Really, which group is wrong?

I think the question can be answered by delving into the issue of authority. The questioner asked “How do we know the Church has infallible authority?” Well, one of the responders stated that he believes the Bible is the source of infallibility. Well if the Bible did not exist at the time of Christ and many decades after that how were the earliest Christians saved? The answer is simple…By word of mouth, first from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ…to the Apostles, and then to us. Sometime during the fourth Century a group of men…yes men…I’ll say it again…Men…gathered together led by the Holy Spirit (history will support the fact that these men were bishops in union with the Pope) readers who disagree…please don’t disagree just because your pastor told you this want true…check it out yourself. I promise…I’ll do the same. Getting back to my point…These Men led by the Holy Spirit decided which books were inspired and which were not, and that is when the Bible as we know it became what is is today. Well it those Men were not infallible…then how can you state unequivocally that the Bible is infallible. The Church…the Pope must have been infallible or else the Bible…made of of a series of books which that counsel deem inspired would be wrong. And if they were wrong then the Bible you so love could be wrong. Please think about this…For me it was the turning point in my Catholic faith. It’s all about authority and who has it.

Well, God has the authority. If God can inspire men to pen the Holy scripture, does HE REALLY NEED infallible men to keep it?

 

[kaycee]

I’m not trying to be right. My hope is that all believers come together as one. As a Catholic I don’t have to interpret the Bible myself, the Magisterium of the Church does that for me. If the United States needs an interpreter for the Constitution…The Supreme Court then why is it so hard to believe that God would not appoint an interpreter of His Word? HOw can six billion people decide what God’s word means. It doesnt make sense.

Can you show me anywhere in scripture where it says that mere men cannot read and interpret for themselves?

Jesus held men accountable for knowing scripture (without a magisterium).

 

[kaycee]

I’m certainly not a apologist, but your statement that the papacy started after Constantine does not hold up, as the earliest Christian wrote about the successors to Peter and actually listed their names form the third century all the way back to Peter. Look it up. Take a look at Saint Ignatious Writing and Clement of Rome.

Having a list of Bishops of Rome does not show universal authority.

 

[guanophore]

Apparently not true, the Orthodox church is not condemned by RCC.

The Church does not “condemn” anyone! Rather, she teaches that it is for God to look upon the hearts of man. There is only One Church, One Body, One Baptism, One Faith, One Lord.

 

[guanophore]

Peter was not the only one given that task! I have certainly accepted Peter’s authority and all the other apostles authority! They have written to me in God’s Word!

Yikes, there are buckets full of verses that speak of Salvation by Faith without any additional requirements. Pleeeaasssse!

Yes, but they are not to be taken in isolation from other verses concerning salvation that do not mention faith. The whole must be taken together.

Well, God has the authority. If God can inspire men to pen the Holy scripture, does HE REALLY NEED infallible men to keep it?

I wouldn’t call it a “need”, no. He chose to work through those fallible men. He chose them, and gave them authority, which they passed on to their successors. This is how he decided to keep His word.

Can you show me anywhere in scripture where it says that mere men cannot read and interpret for themselves?

God has given man free will, and has allowed him to choose to make as many errors as he wishes. All those who wish to read and interpret may do so.

Jesus held men accountable for knowing scripture (without a magisterium).

This is false, kaycee. There was a magesterium. Ever since Moses, who interpreted for the people, judges were appointed, and the teachers sat in the seat of Moses. That seat was transferred to Peter.

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

Apparently not true, the Orthodox church is not condemned by RCC.

CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”**323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”**324