How do we know that the Church has infallible authority?

[Sams_Son]

I could not have said it better. But in defense of our protestant brothers and sisters, many, not all, have been told all their lives that the Catholic Church is a cult and that its members are not Christians. This indoctrination is very difficult to overcome.

Many Catholics do not believe in the complete authority of the Church. I watched footage of President Kennedy explaining to a group of protestant pastors how he would deal with his Catholicism as it related to the presidency. As much as I respect this man he was so wrong about the Church’s authority over him as a Catholic.

We Catholics must, must submit to the Church’s authority. If we accept that it is the Church that Christ established then how can we get away from that.

It’s one thing to submit to authority which is rooted in false teachings. It’s quite another to submit to the Church established by Christ Himself

 

[Chris_B]

Having a list of Bishops of Rome does not show universal authority.

Perhaps not, but men were more simple back then. They took their authority as being universal. Other than heretics, there really was one Church back then (And now, too, aside from Schismatic churches). The Papacy has always been since the days of Peter. It may have developed over time, but in no way does that undermine it’s claims. Revelation from God developed over time too. Does that undermine it’s authority and truth?

 

[milde]

We Catholics must, must submit to the Church’s authority.

The church was created by and is controlled by men. I for one cannot submit blindly to other mortal men. It’s simply not a wise decision. My father’s generation was all about submitting to a big corporation that took care of you all your life with promises of pensions for an easy retirement. Clearly that didn’t work out. China and Russia want you to submit to government as they too have the answer on how to live. Government will take care of you they say. Clearly that hasn’t worked too well either.

Ohhhhhh, but these men of the church are different you say?

They just may be different. They may be inspired by God as they say they are. So far I don’t have much evidence of that. And Christians are taught from birth that a request for evidence means you are weak. Weak in your faith. Baaaaaad to be weak in faith. Don’t ask such questions.

I’m not buying the whole argument that I am somehow weak and by submitting all reason and thinking to church leaders I become strong. (Edited)

 

[Chris_B]

Hi,
Well if the Bible did not exist at the time of Christ and many decades after that how were the earliest Christians saved?

The very earliest had the Apostles, and the ones after that had the Early Fathers and early Papacy. The Bible itself was defined later on.

Abraham was saved in Gen.15:6 He believed in the LORD and it was counted **to him ** for Righteousness. Romans4:3What sayeth the scripture(Old Testament) Abraham Believed GOD and it was counted unto Him as righteousness ( Galatians3:6)Even as Abraham believed God(who?) God! and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Romans10:11 For the **Scripture sayeth(Old ****Testament) **or this scripture written by Paul?

The “Scripture” referred to was the Septuagint (“LXX”). That is, the Old Testament. Ironic that this collection included all of the Deuterocanon that the Protestants reject.

2Peter3:15,16 as our beloved brother hath writtenv16 in his epistles. All scripture was completed at the end of Revelation I believe. We have our 27 Canonical Books of New Testament.

Written, sure, but not truly defined until the Church Councils quite awhile later. That said, at the time John the Divine completed Revelation on Patmos, a few of the Gospels may not have been totally completed.

I have been reading the Catechism and listening to Catholic Apologists . Seems they are starting to read God’s Word for themselves now. A good book to read is “A Letter Between a Catholic and an Evangelical” I really marked up this book. You get both sides and you have to decide. They both are not in agreement of Scripture alone or the Traditions Oral and written,Councils,Popes,catechisms,church fathers,dogmas,gift of infallability ,Bishops schoos of C120Cardinals alone.

And Scripture as we see it today comes from a collection of all of that. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

Whew!!! I hear Catholics say even a child can understand scripture and it is so clear.

No, those Catholics are certainly wrong. I remember trying to interpret it as a child (Granted, since I’m only 18, that wasn’t very long ago…), and I was a pretty well-educated child, yet still failing to grasp it. In fact, I still have difficulties. So no, the Bible certainly isn’t “clear”.

My Mom said she was not allowed to read the Bible by her Catholic church. Only the Priest could read it and understand it.

That’s never been part of actual Dogma. If an individual Parish says something like that, it was foolish to claim.

My Mom died Saturday. I now have to travel from Oregon to MN to her Catholic Church. People will pay to have a Mass or Masses said for her,$450 for the Mass Tuesday at the funeral.

Really? The Requiem Mass for my Grandfather was actually very cheap. $450 seems excessive, but you know, Churches do need money for upkeep, and some don’t get enough from the collection plates.

All 5 of us kids went to the Parochial School thru 8th grade. We read our Catechisms but never the Bible. Why not? Now we have all left the Catholic Church and have read what the Bible says. Oh, my Dad even started to read the Bible before he died.

Clearly ignoring the Magisterium’s blatant promotion of reading Scripture. If, in your time as a Catholic, you didn’t read the Bible, then you made a mistake. Nothing the Church itself should be blamed for.

 

[Chris_B]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

Not impressed.

I could say the same thing about what you’ve said. What are you getting at?

 

[Chris_B]

They just may be different. They may be inspired by God as they say they are. So far I don’t have much evidence of that. And Christians are taught from birth that a request for evidence means you are weak. Weak in your faith. Baaaaaad to be weak in faith. Don’t ask such questions.

I’d love to hear where questions have been discouraged. Questions have been asked, and answers rejected, because they were not what the questioner wanted to hear. Similar to the fact that many Jews rejected Jesus because he wasn’t like the messiah they were expecting.

I’m not buying the whole argument that I am somehow weak and by submitting all reason and thinking to church leaders I become strong. (Edited)

We are not to submit all reason and thinking to Church leaders. They can teach infallibly on Morals and Faith, but where does that say that we are to submit all reason and thinking?

 

[milde]

We are not to submit all reason and thinking to Church leaders. They can teach infallibly on Morals and Faith, but where does that say that we are to submit all reason and thinking?

They are obviously more than just teachers. They are correct. Always. Period. Infallible. If you disagree then you are wrong and they are right. The default and only answer to any argument is that they are right.

And since I don’t buy it I’m told that I am weak in my faith. And who wants to be weak? Such weakness could have you burning in hell for eternity. In fact it will in many cases if you listen to the infallible ones.

So it’s just easier to agree and have faith than to think and question. See how it all works?

 

[Sams_Son]

I can’t and perhaps will never get you to understand what submission to the Church means. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. God Bless you.

 

[milde]

I can’t and perhaps will never get you to understand what submission to the Church means. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. God Bless you.

That’s pretty much my point. People who have difficulty explaining whatever it is they are selling worry me.

 

[Sams_Son]

What are u worried about? I’m not running for anything. I Have no power over you. I will never be in a position over you. Your comment is ludicrous. What your worried about is believing in something greater than yourself.

I will tell you what we Catholics believe:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

That’s it. we don’t add to it or take from it. One God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One Church which is holy and apostolic.

You see I have long accepted that Jesus was God, the second person of the trinity. I have accepted that He establish His Church on earth and that that Church has authority, and if I choose not to submit to its authority then it’s only logical that I am choosing not to submit to His authority.

The Catholic Church is the only Church on earth that can claim what it claims. It is the only church which can trace it roots all the way back to Christ. If you can show me another, please do. History supports it. You may not like it. You may not agree with it. But that does not mean it’s not true. God Bless you.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

The Catholic Church is the only Church on earth that can claim what it claims. It is the only church which can trace it roots all the way back to Christ. If you can show me another, please do. History supports it. You may not like it. You may not agree with it. But that does not mean it’s not true. God Bless you.

You and I have different views as to what constitute the church mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 16:18 – “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

My understanding is that this ecclesia is expressed whereever two or three are gathered in Christ’s name. Thus is it not a single institution composed of a particular catechism. Peter fulfilled his role when he preached the first sermon on Pentecost and the church was born. Today, all who respond to that same basic message, whether they join the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, or one of the thousand of protestant churches are all part of the same one universal Church that Christ says will not be overcome. But that doesn’t mean that individuals within it might not be overcome, for certainly history is filled with people who have been overcome and strayed from the faith. And I suggest that even whole groups can go amiss. Some here think that Luther led people astray. Other here think that Luther was pointing out how the leaders of the church in his day were going amiss and that Christ actually used Luther to be sure that the gates of Hell did not overcome the Church. Both are opinions, and only Christ not any human being nor any institution composed of human beings actually knows the facts in that case.

But for me, the Church is bigger than Catholic church. Catholics are all certainly a part of this Church that Christ was referring to, but they are not the only people who are a part of it.

 

[wanner47]

Then tell me how I should approach trusting the church. It’s an organization of mortal men with tremendous power over people. Even a slight understanding of history and politics will make you realize how easily organizations like that become corrupt.

Because the Church is comprised of mortal men **with a special charism granted by the Holy Spirit that prevents them from teaching error when it comes to matters of faith and morals. **

Jesus said in Matthew 23:3 -

The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.

Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them

.

Jesus also instructed us in the Bible to accept the Church’s authority, because that authority was given by Him. He knew very well that it would be headed by mortal men who would make mistakes; after all, He chose Peter as first Pope knowing full well that Peter would deny Him 3 times during his Passion. Yet he still instructed us to listen to and follow the Church, just as St. Paul advised us to adhere to the traditions and teachings of the Church. Would either of them do so if we weren’t supposed to?

 

[Sams_Son]

You and I have different views as to what constitute the church mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 16:18 – “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

My understanding is that this ecclesia is expressed whereever two or three are gathered in Christ’s name. Thus is it not a single institution composed of a particular catechism. Peter fulfilled his role when he preached the first sermon on Pentecost and the church was born. Today, all who respond to that same basic message, whether they join the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, or one of the thousand of protestant churches are all part of the same one universal Church that Christ says will not be overcome. But that doesn’t mean that individuals within it might not be overcome, for certainly history is filled with people who have been overcome and strayed from the faith. And I suggest that even whole groups can go amiss. Some here think that Luther led people astray. Other here think that Luther was pointing out how the leaders of the church in his day were going amiss and that Christ actually used Luther to be sure that the gates of Hell did not overcome the Church. Both are opinions, and only Christ not any human being nor any institution composed of human beings actually knows the facts in that case.

But for me, the Church is bigger than Catholic church. Catholics are all certainly a part of this Church that Christ was referring to, but they are not the only people who are a part of it.

Grace Seeker,

Reading your response was a pleasure. It was non judgmental and loving. Thank you. Consider this, the Church Christ established was visible, not invisible.

The following verses give us a clue as to its visibility and addresses your example and/or definition of the church:

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

—Mt. 18:15–17

If the definition of “church” is where two or more are gathered in my name, then what is Mathew referring to when he says “tell it to the church”, or “and if he refuses to listen even to the church”, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

The verse that preceded this verse says “take one or two others along. so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.” By your definition, the two or three others would constitute the church, however here, in scripture, we have a group of men being told to take their problem to the church. What church were they referring to? Clearly, there was a visible church when this scripture was written.

God Bless you

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You do make a good point in the 2 or 3 in Matthew 18. I probably need to be more careful in my wordsmithing.

 

[Ignatius]

This post was moved from a thread on praying to the saints, where it posed questions that were off topic.

SyCarl would do better to ask this question in the "Ask and Apologist’ forum where he will get where he will get a more Authoritative answer.

 

[Ignatius]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

Not impressed.

Apparently not able to make an intelligent response either!!! May the Lord watch and protect you and bring you to the Pillar and Foundation of His Truth.

 

[anthony022071]

St. Irenaeus:

“For it is with this Roman church, by reason of its more powerful pre-eminence that every other church, that is to say all the faithful everywhere, ought to agree, inasmuch as in this church the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those who come from everywhere.” (“Against Heresies,” c. 180 A.D.)

“Where the Church is, there also is the Spirit of God, and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church, and every grace: for the Spirit is truth” (Adv. Haer. III, xxiv, 1)

“Where the charismata of the Lord are given, there must we seek the truth, i.e. with those to whom belongs the ecclesiastical succession from the Apostles, and the unadulterated and incorruptible word. It is they who . . . are the guardians of our faith . . . and securely [sine periculo] expound the Scriptures to us” (op. cit., IV xxvi, 5).

Cyprian of Carthage:

“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?”

“The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste.
She knows one home . . . Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.” (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251]).

 

[anthony022071]

Vincent of Lerins:

“I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or anyone else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they arise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church. But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church’s interpretation?’ For this reason,–because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another, so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novation expounds it one way, Sabellius another, … Arius … another … Pelagius … another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation” (Commoniories,2:4,5 (A.D. 434)

 

[agangbern]

That’s pretty much my point. People who have difficulty explaining whatever it is they are selling worry me.

I think no one is selling anything here…The word selling is a very dangerous figure of speech in matters of faith.

 

[milde]

I think no one is selling anything here…The word selling is a very dangerous figure of speech in matters of faith.

Parse the words however you please. These threats (don’t like that word either?) that I’ve heard all my life about how I’m going to burn in hell are just coming up empty these days. I’m numb to it at this point. It puzzles me how people worship a God that treats people that way. My heart tells me people who believe that were just scared into believing it.