How do we know the bible is infallible?

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I have a friend at work who has difficulty accepting the Churches teaching because he doesn’t recognize them as an authority. He says that if I can convince him that the bible is infallible that everything would fall into place for him.

Are there any articles presenting a good case for the bible being infallible or inerrent?

Help appreciated

Thanks
 
I have a friend at work who has difficulty accepting the Churches teaching because he doesn’t recognize them as an authority. He says that if I can convince him that the bible is infallible that everything would fall into place for him.

Are there any articles presenting a good case for the bible being infallible or inerrent?

Help appreciated

Thanks
Well if you take the Bible as a history, the Bible teaches us that Christ gave the Church infallible ability on the matters of faith and morals. Though this requires belief in Christ.
The Church then teaches that the Bible is inerrant when properly interpretated. The Bible cannot be infallible because the Bible does not make decision, it can be free from error though.

So Bible as history declares the Church infallible, the Church infallibly declares the Bible free from error with proper interpretation. So the reasoning here is not circular.

Pax
 
Well if you take the Bible as a history, the Bible teaches us that Christ gave the Church infallible ability on the matters of faith and morals. Though this requires belief in Christ.
The Church then teaches that the Bible is inerrant when properly interpretated. The Bible cannot be infallible because the Bible does not make decision, it can be free from error though.

So Bible as history declares the Church infallible, the Church infallibly declares the Bible free from error with proper interpretation. So the reasoning here is not circular.

Pax
That is circular reasoning and it will not convince ocuinn’s friend.
 
I have a friend at work who has difficulty accepting the Churches teaching because he doesn’t recognize them as an authority. He says that if I can convince him that the bible is infallible that everything would fall into place for him.
This is not a new question - in fact, it is often at the heart of apologetic dialogue with protestants. The basic premise is described in this CA tract.

Basically, you cannot prove inspiration of Scripture without recourse to some other authority (because Scripture cannot prove its own inspiration). The only authority that is historically and factually able to define the infallible nature of Scripture is the Catholic Church. If your friend rejects the authority of the Catholic Church then THIS is the area you need to examine with him, rather than Scripture itself (prove one and you prove the other – and a lot more).

So I suggest you postpone your discussion of the validity of Scripture while you explore the infallible nature of the Catholic Church herself. You will find many resources here to assist you.
 
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ConallCernach:
Well if you take the Bible as a history, the Bible teaches us that Christ gave the Church infallible ability on the matters of faith and morals. Though this requires belief in Christ.
The Church then teaches that the Bible is inerrant when properly interpretated. The Bible cannot be infallible because the Bible does not make decision, it can be free from error though.

So Bible as history declares the Church infallible, the Church infallibly declares the Bible free from error with proper interpretation. So the reasoning here is not circular.

Pax
That requires that we know that the Bible be accurate, which we do not know that it is. The first part of it was written, what, 35 years after Jesus died?
 
Here’s my response to your friend’s request. You can no more prove that the bible is infallible than you can prove God exists. That leads to two questions. Why does he need proof in the first place? Additionally, what is truth? Can you prove that any of your beliefs are true? Your thoughts could be the figment of an imagination originating from a brain in a glass jar on some unnamed plant. As Catholics we operate under two premises FAITH and REASON. We make certain faith assumptions based on prudent judgment ie. God exists ( Aquinas’ Five Reasons) and from there we grow though Divine Revelation and grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that (CCC1814) Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our beliefs, because he is truth itself. No one can punch that ticket for you. Your bible is not going to be stamped with an authenticity label. God was so loving he gave us free will. He allows us to come to Him. He doesn’t force us. In 1 Corinthians 1:27 King James Version Paul says “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise” Just look around and see the mess that we have created by our wise thinking. The 20th century left us with some 169-175 million people who were killed for their beliefs. Pray for faith forget about needing proof of biblical infallibility.
 
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MyJesuitSon:
Here’s my response to your friend’s request. You can no more prove that the bible is infallible than you can prove God exists. That leads to two questions. Why does he need proof in the first place? Additionally, what is truth? Can you prove that any of your beliefs are true? Your thoughts could be the figment of an imagination originating from a brain in a glass jar on some unnamed plant. As Catholics we operate under two premises FAITH and REASON. We make certain faith assumptions based on prudent judgment ie. God exists ( Aquinas’ Five Reasons) and from there we grow though Divine Revelation and grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that (CCC1814) Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our beliefs, because he is truth itself. No one can punch that ticket for you. Your bible is not going to be stamped with an authenticity label. God was so loving he gave us free will. He allows us to come to Him. He doesn’t force us. In 1 Corinthians 1:27 King James Version Paul says “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise” Just look around and see the mess that we have created by our wise thinking. The 20th century left us with some 169-175 million people who were killed for their beliefs. Pray for faith forget about needing proof of biblical infallibility.
There is a difference between accepting a belief with no evidence to support it and accepting a belief with quite a lot of evidence to support it. I acknowledge that I could be a brain in a vat, but until some evidence comes forth to support that, I’ll file it away.

Aquinas’s arguments are not really that sound.

1). First mover.

Let us agree that an unmoved mover is possible. How do you know that it is God, versus some impersonal natural force?

2). First cause.

Let us agree that an uncaused cause is possible. How do you know that it is God, versus some impersonal natural force?

3). Existence.

Let us agree that a non-contingent existence exists. How do you know that it is God?

4). Argument from degrees.

If the existence of good implies a perfect good, does the existence of evil imply a perfect evil, or the existence of humor imply a master joker?

5). Argument from design.

Natural things do not work towards a goal - and if they did, it’s a bit of a jump from there to the God of the Bible.
 
There is a difference between accepting a belief with no evidence to support it and accepting a belief with quite a lot of evidence to support it. I acknowledge that I could be a brain in a vat, but until some evidence comes forth to support that, I’ll file it away.

Aquinas’s arguments are not really that sound.

1). First mover.

Let us agree that an unmoved mover is possible. How do you know that it is God, versus some impersonal natural force?

2). First cause.

Let us agree that an uncaused cause is possible. How do you know that it is God, versus some impersonal natural force?

3). Existence.

Let us agree that a non-contingent existence exists. How do you know that it is God?

4). Argument from degrees.

If the existence of good implies a perfect good, does the existence of evil imply a perfect evil, or the existence of humor imply a master joker?

5). Argument from design.

Natural things do not work towards a goal - and if they did, it’s a bit of a jump from there to the God of the Bible.
You missed my point by focusing in on Aquinas. And it is not my intent to present or debate arguments on God’s existence. I began my reply stating that you couldn’t prove the infallibility of the bible any more than you could prove that God existed. However there are a lot of arguments that would support it. We use those arguments and whatever evidence as basis for having faith. We don’t believe in things on no basis at all. There is a historical bible and CA concludes: *Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired. * I also pointed out that Faith is a theological virtue. There is a starting point within each of us that asks the questions about our existence and the mystery and meaning of it.
 
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MyJesuitSon:
You missed my point by focusing in on Aquinas. And it is not my intent to present or debate arguments on God’s existence. I began my reply stating that you couldn’t prove the infallibility of the bible any more than you could prove that God existed. However there are a lot of arguments that would support it. We use those arguments and whatever evidence as basis for having faith. We don’t believe in things on no basis at all. There is a historical bible and CA concludes: *Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired. * I also pointed out that Faith is a theological virtue. There is a starting point within each of us that asks the questions about our existence and the mystery and meaning of it.
Why would you make a faith judgment based on faulty arguments? I don’t understand…couldn’t you dig up any flawed argument and believe in based upon faith?
 
I have a friend at work who has difficulty accepting the Churches teaching because he doesn’t recognize them as an authority. He says that if I can convince him that the bible is infallible that everything would fall into place for him.

Are there any articles presenting a good case for the bible being infallible or inerrent?

Help appreciated

Thanks
ocuinn,
We accept what the Bible teaches by faith. Faith is a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit. 1Cor.12:11
2Tim.3;16 reads “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. 17. so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Is your friend a believer? Pray for him. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
Why would you make a faith judgment based on faulty arguments? I don’t understand…couldn’t you dig up any flawed argument and believe in based upon faith?
You don’t understand? It is you who is stating that it is a faulty argument. I hate to burst your bubble but not everyone agrees with you. It is an argument not proof. What is your problem? Your argument to Aquinas is that it could be an “impersonal natural force”. It is an argument not proof. Your argument is equally faulty if by your definition of faulty it means that you don’t agree with it. I really don’t want to go on with this. Faith is not an intellectual tennis match. You can dig up any flawed argument you want and believe whatever you want you have free will baby. Here’s what I believe: there is a Creator, he revealed himself to man specifically Abraham in the Old Testament (a historical book which I believe is inspired by God) The Creator became man, Jesus Christ. He revealed himself to the apostles, died on a cross for our sins, resurrected, and ascended in to heaven etc. (just read the Nicene Creed ) and left them, the apostles with the “deposit of faith”, and started the Church. This comes again from a historical book which is inspired by God. If you believe this is based on a false argument there isn’t much more to discuss. There are arguments in this thread that have been previously stated regarding the bible’s infallibility. I stated before and I will state it again you can no more prove that the bible is infallible that you can prove that God exists. Faith is a theological virtue in the CCC 1813…They inform and give life to all moral virtues. They are infused by God in the souls of the faithful to make them capable to act as his children and meriting eternal life. They are the pledge and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being.
God Bless
 
The Bible is true because the Catholic Church holds it to be so. The Catholic Church has this unerring authority because Jesus promised that it be so. Jesus’ promises are infallibly true because He is the Son of God. We know He is the Son of God due to the testimony of those who knew Him and witnessed His miracles, passion, death, and resurrection. We can trust their testimony because there can really be no more credible a witness to an event. All of the witnesses to Him had nothing material to gain, in fact, they became poor and persecuted. Finally, they suffered tortuous deaths rather than recant.

Think of it this way: in any court trial, how many people would choose being crucified upside down rather than retract their testimony (even if their testimony were true!).

In addition, as more of an aside, what are the odds that a persecuted sect (Christianity) of a persecuted religion (Judaism) would convert the most powerful and advanced world empire in history?
 
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MyJesuitSon:
You don’t understand? It is you who is stating that it is a faulty argument. I hate to burst your bubble but not everyone agrees with you. It is an argument not proof.
The arguments are flawed - I have already shown them to be.
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MyJesuitSon:
What is your problem? Your argument to Aquinas is that it could be an “impersonal natural force”. It is an argument not proof. Your argument is equally faulty if by your definition of faulty it means that you don’t agree with it.
I am not arguing that it was an impersonal natural force, merely that his argument does not rule that out

St. Aquinas’s argument does not establish any of those things. I do not understand why you would believe them.
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Genesis315:
We know He is the Son of God due to the testimony of those who knew Him and witnessed His miracles, passion, death, and resurrection. We can trust their testimony because there can really be no more credible a witness to an event.
Wasn’t the first book of the New Testament, or at least the earliest one we can find copies of, written some 35 years after Jesus died?

I guess it comes down to whether or not you can trust the testimony of humans.
 
That is circular reasoning and it will not convince ocuinn’s friend.
Wrong. Read the fuller explanation:

Proving Inspiration
catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.

An Accurate Text

Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that “For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600.” Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an authentic text, and we can work from it with confidence.

The Bible as Historical Truth

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
 
The Bible is only as infallible as its interpreter
Hi Simon,
Each time we read the bible, the Holy Spirit reveals something new. He knows when we are ready to digest what is being read.
The Bible is truly one of God’s miracles. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
I have a friend at work who has difficulty accepting the Churches teaching because he doesn’t recognize them as an authority. He says that if I can convince him that the bible is infallible that everything would fall into place for him.

Are there any articles presenting a good case for the bible being infallible or inerrent?

Help appreciated

Thanks
Because the Church says so. 😛
 
Because the Church says so. 😛
manny,
'Church can be defined as a building used for public worship. Church is a body of Christian believers, for those who are christian. 🙂 Church is also a christian denomination, which there are many.
To say one church is saved while others are not saved is to sit on God’s Throne. 🙂 It’s a ‘hot seat’
The Bible tells us in, See Mt.7:1-5 not to judge others.
Difficult, isn’t it. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
How do we know the bible is infallible?

The Bible is NOT infallible!

There are many versions of it that attests to that fact! It is not The Bible that is infallible but The Church that gave it “so that the whole world may know” that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate!

Someone has already stated the correct course to take to determine the infallibility of Scriptures. Prove the infallibility of The Church, and Her Scriptures will follow suit.

:cool:
 
Aquinas’s arguments are not really that sound.

1). First mover.

Let us agree that an unmoved mover is possible. How do you know that it is God, versus some impersonal natural force?

2). First cause.

Let us agree that an uncaused cause is possible. How do you know that it is God, versus some impersonal natural force?
A natural force obeys the laws of nature, and thus requires a higher mover or cause.
 
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