How do we know what Tradition says?

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Since there have been a number of differing beliefs on key issues, such as the Arianist heresy, how can the church judge from tradition what is correct? How does the church use and cite tradition, and how is it used and passed down today? And if it is true that a dogma is not defined untill it’s challenged, why aren’t un-defined beliefs such as limbo counted as tradition?

God bless.
 
Tradition is in two main forms, Scripture and what is often calle d oral tradition - in other words the non written traditions handed down through the Church from the time of the Apostles.

Originally ALL tradition was “oral” tradition, since the gospels and letters weren’t written until at least the 60s AD. A complete new Testament was not approved by the Church until 382 AD, when the presnt NT was defined out at the Councils of Rome and Carthage.

The proof of true oral tradition is simple - it is what has always and everywhere been taught by the Church. This is witnessed in the liturgies of the Church and in the core beliefs that the church has always held, such as the Trinity and the real presence. These doctrines are not clearly defined in the scriptures - hence aberrations like the Arian heresy. The unchanged teaching of the Church is verified in papal pronouncements, Ecumenical Councils, and witnessed by the writings of the early Church Fathers. This is not to say that what any Church father writes is part of Apostolic Tradition. Some fathers, like Tertullian veered from the truth in later writings. It is the CONSENSUS of the Fathers that provides the witness - the teachings that the Fathers together teach as authoritative and always taught.
 
Tradition is in two main forms, Scripture and what is often calle d oral tradition - in other words the non written traditions handed down through the Church from the time of the Apostles.

Originally ALL tradition was “oral” tradition, since the gospels and letters weren’t written until at least the 60s AD. A complete new Testament was not approved by the Church until 382 AD, when the presnt NT was defined out at the Councils of Rome and Carthage.

The proof of true oral tradition is simple - it is what has always and everywhere been taught by the Church. This is witnessed in the liturgies of the Church and in the core beliefs that the church has always held, such as the Trinity and the real presence. These doctrines are not clearly defined in the scriptures - hence aberrations like the Arian heresy. The unchanged teaching of the Church is verified in papal pronouncements, Ecumenical Councils, and witnessed by the writings of the early Church Fathers. This is not to say that what any Church father writes is part of Apostolic Tradition. Some fathers, like Tertullian veered from the truth in later writings. It is the CONSENSUS of the Fathers that provides the witness - the teachings that the Fathers together teach as authoritative and always taught.
So, Tradition is essentially what the church has always and still does teach? So, what part does the Magestiruim play in all this?

Thanks.
 
So, Tradition is essentially what the church has always and still does teach? So, what part does the Magestiruim play in all this?

Thanks.
The Magisterium, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, sorts (sorted) out what teachings are valid Tradition and what are not.
 
yes but is the concept of Magesterium biblical?
Yes…

AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles. Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin. 1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist). Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice. Mt 18:17 - power to discipline. Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
 
More over the “oral” tradition isn’t oral strictly speaking… Beleive it or not, much (if not all) of this oral tradition was recorded in various writings of the fathers. I strongly recommend all Christians read the fathers (not just Catholics). This is where we get Tradition from.
 
Since there have been a number of differing beliefs on key issues, such as the Arianist heresy, how can the church judge from tradition what is correct? How does the church use and cite tradition, and how is it used and passed down today? And if it is true that a dogma is not defined untill it’s challenged, why aren’t un-defined beliefs such as limbo counted as tradition?

God bless.
This article was brought to my attention yesterday…give it a read.

What is Sacred Tradition?
By Mark Shea
mark-shea.com/tradition.html
 
Is the magesterium biblical?

Randy wrote:
Look at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 for evidence.
Ok, let’s look at it. I repeat here what I posted yesterday elsewhere and you be the judge.

At the council of Jerusalem:

There were no cardinals present.

It was not held in Rome.

It was a local church council.

No pope presided.

No appeal is made to infallibility. Appeal was made to Scripture alone.

James-not Peter- gave judgment.

Final decision was made by the apostles plus the elders and the whole local church.

A joint letter was issued giving the results of the council, but it was not a papal encyclical.

The reason is clear: the apostles did not believe in papal rule.
 
Is the magesterium biblical?
The magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, so, yes, it is biblical.
At the council of Jerusalem:

There were no cardinals present.
Cardinals are advisors to the pope, and this position developed later. Is there anything anti-biblical about the head of the Church seeking counsel?
It was not held in Rome.
Most Church councils weren’t, and yet, you, as a Protestant, accept MUCH of what the early councils decided.
It was a local church council.
Right. Nobody travelled from anywhere else to attend. Except Paul. And Barnabas. And Peter. And…you get the idea.
No pope presided.
The head of the Church, Peter, was there. The title developed later, but the office existed then.
No appeal is made to infallibility. Appeal was made to Scripture alone.
Huh? “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”…where is scripture mentioned?
James-not Peter- gave judgment.
In another thread, you encouraged me to read the scriptures. Let me demonstrate that I have:

Peter, James and the Council of Jerusalem

Many non-Catholics claim that Peter could not have been the head of the earthly Church or “pope” because they believe that it was James, not Peter, who gave the final decision concerning circumcision of the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15. This position indicates a complete misunderstanding of the dynamics of the council. Mark Bonocore, a noted Catholic apologist, addressed this misunderstanding in his debate with Jason Engwer in 1999.

Regarding the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, I pointed out in my [opening statement] how Peter gives the definitive teachings and how, after he speaks, all debate comes to an end. However, Engwer rejects this, citing the amendments given by James, and says how James is the only one to render “judgment.” Well, first of all, it must be noted that James bases his remarks on Peter’s teaching:

“Brothers, listen to me. Symeon (i.e., Peter) has described how …” (Acts 15:13-14).

Secondly, look at what James actually says in relation to his “judgment”:

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles” (Acts 15:19).

Well, who is this “we”? Who was “troubling the Gentiles”? Certainly not Peter (Acts 10:44-49, 11:1-18, 15:7-10). Certainly not Paul or Barnabas. So, who? Acts 15:1 tells us:

“Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised …, you cannot be saved.”

It was the Jewish faction under James (bishop of Jerusalem) that was troubling the Gentiles (Acts 15:5, Gal 2:12).

Thus, James is speaking for them, not for the whole council. Indeed, that’s why his remarks are recorded at all—to show that the leader of the Jewish faction subscribed to the decisions of the council, and so silence the Judaizers who Paul will encounter later (Titus 1:10-11).*

*Taken from: Mark Bonocore v. Jason Engwer: Was the Papacy Established by Christ?
bringyou.to/apologetics/debate13.htm

To Bonocore’s comments above, I would add the following:

As leader of the church in Jerusalem, James headed up a congregation which counted among its members many priests and Pharisees who still held to their Jewish roots and believed that Gentiles must become Jews through circumcision in order to become Christians. I refer you to the following:

Acts 4:36-37
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Acts 6:7
7So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Some from among this group had gone to Galatia and upset the Gentile believers there.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

(cont.)
 
From this, we can see that the Council of Jerusalem was divided into two camps: those who believed the Gentile converts should be circumcised and those who did not.

Peter addresses the former with these words: “Now then, why do **you [Judaizers] **try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:10-11)

James addresses them, also: “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon (note that James even used Peter’s Hebrew name when speaking to the Judaizers) has described to us (James must be speaking here to the believers from Jerusalem since those from Galatia would already have been familiar with God’s work in that province!) how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself…19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we (the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem) should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them…” (Acts 15:13-20)

Thus, after hearing Peter’s doctrinal pronouncement, James rose to speak and addressed those from his own flock whom he knew would have the hardest time accepting Peter’s decision. James accepted Peter’s teaching and added his own pastoral comments for the benefit of the pro-circumcision group present and for those who might be tempted to doubt that the leader of the “Judaizers” really had accepted the decision of the full ecumenical council that circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles.
Final decision was made by the apostles plus the elders and the whole local church.
The final decision was made by Peter, and James backed the local judaizers down because he was their Bishop.
A joint letter was issued giving the results of the council, but it was not a papal encyclical.
Okay.
The reason is clear: the apostles did not believe in papal rule.
The reason IS clear: the council issued a declaration just as every council does.
 
yes but is the concept of Magesterium biblical?
The word “Magisterium” comes from the Latin word “magister” which means “teacher”. The Magisterium is the teaching body and authority of the Catholic Church.

What you’re really then asking is if the concept of a “teaching authority” is Biblical, and the answer is an emphatic “Yes!”

Christ gave his disciples the authority to teach:

“And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” - Matthew 28:18-19

“Again Jesus said, 'Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”’ - John 20:21
 
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Randy_Carson:
Dear Randy in all your posts on this Thread …

:thumbsup:Good Job 👍
 
No appeal is made to infallibility. Appeal was made to Scripture alone.
This I find particularly difficult to believe, considering that there was no New Testament scripture in existance at this point to appeal to. And surely, they wouldn’t appear to the Jewish scripture…
 
From this, we can see that the Council of Jerusalem was divided into two camps: those who believed the Gentile converts should be circumcised and those who did not.

Peter addresses the former with these words: “Now then, why do **you [Judaizers] **try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:10-11)

James addresses them, also: “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon (note that James even used Peter’s Hebrew name when speaking to the Judaizers) has described to us (James must be speaking here to the believers from Jerusalem since those from Galatia would already have been familiar with God’s work in that province!) how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself…19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we (the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem) should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them…” (Acts 15:13-20)

Thus, after hearing Peter’s doctrinal pronouncement, James rose to speak and addressed those from his own flock whom he knew would have the hardest time accepting Peter’s decision. James accepted Peter’s teaching and added his own pastoral comments for the benefit of the pro-circumcision group present and for those who might be tempted to doubt that the leader of the “Judaizers” really had accepted the decision of the full ecumenical council that circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles.

The final decision was made by Peter, and James backed the local judaizers down because he was their Bishop.

Okay.

The reason IS clear: the council issued a declaration just as every council does.
Both Posts were well put & accurate TY for your Time & Love in sharing them.
 
yes but is the concept of Magesterium biblical?
Yes it is, but so what? Where does the Bible say everything necessary is in the Bible.

The most that the Bible itself says is that the Bible “is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction”. It doesn’t even say that it is the only thing that is profitable for these things.

Now, what does the Bible say about The Church, the Bible says that “The Church of the living God is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth”, IOW it is The Church that is the Foundation and upholder of Truth
 
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