How do we know?

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Ok, so I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about the Catholic Church. I am a strong Catholic myself and so is he. We were talking about what defense we had to know that the Catholic Church is the one true church. We are talking about it from the non-Bible believer point of view, and neither one of us had a good answer to begin with. After discussing it for a little longer, we came across the question:

“Why isn’t Judaism the correct religion since we split away from them? (Similar to the other Christian religions split away from us.) We could claim they refused to believe; but Calvinists could also claim that.”

Any incites on how to answer that question?

Thanks!
-LiveForChrist :signofcross:
 
God established the Jewish Church and the Old Covenant. Only God has the authority to amend that Covenant.

That’s exactly what happened when God (or, more specifically, Jesus) established the Catholic Church - the fulfillment of the Jewish Covenant. We can mount a pretty credible defense of this (perhaps our strongest defense are the writings of the Early Church Fathers, who describe the Apostolic Church in very Catholic terns - a Pope, Sacraments, Eucharist, etc).

By the way, in the Catholic viewpoint, the Catholic Church did not break away from the Jewish Church. God fulfilled the Jewish covenant, so the Jewish Church became the Catholic Church. But some Jews did not go along. Had all the Jews “seen the light” and accepted their own Savior, the seamless transition from Judaism to Catholicism would be much more apparent.

Does anyone claim that Jesus himself established the Presbyterian Church? Did Calvin ever make any claim that Jesus had appeared to him and given him this authority?
 
Jesus Christ fulfills the prophecies of the Old Testament. That was a significant part of the Apostles’ preaching in the New Testament. He fit the prophecies of the awaited Messiah. Plus, there were witnesses that saw him die and alive again, perform miracles, claim divinity, etc…
:o
 
“Why isn’t Judaism the correct religion since we split away from them? (Similar to the other Christian religions split away from us.) We could claim they refused to believe; but Calvinists could also claim that.”

Any incites on how to answer that question?

Thanks!
-LiveForChrist :signofcross:
I think it would be more accurate to say we didn’t split away from them, they split away from us.

There is an entire thread on ‘how do we know’ somewhere on CAF – one good answer was that Cardinal Newman before becoming Catholic investigated using the criteria that God does not change, so His Church is the one that has not changed. He discovered the Catholic Church is the only one that hasn’t changed in 2000 years in its teachings on faith and morals, so he became Catholic.

God bless you.
 
Ok, so I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about the Catholic Church. I am a strong Catholic myself and so is he. We were talking about what defense we had to know that the Catholic Church is the one true church. We are talking about it from the non-Bible believer point of view, and neither one of us had a good answer to begin with. After discussing it for a little longer, we came across the question:

“Why isn’t Judaism the correct religion since we split away from them? (Similar to the other Christian religions split away from us.) We could claim they refused to believe; but Calvinists could also claim that.”

Any incites on how to answer that question?

Thanks!
-LiveForChrist :signofcross:
I will give this a try.the Jewish faith is a true faith it is the faith founded upon the covenant between God and Abraham. They however rejected the Christ and as such kicked his followers out of the synagoges. If they had accepted the Christ we would still be Jewish. Or they would be Christian depends on how you lok at it. however that has nothing to do with the Calvinist or protestant reformation.
 
Ok, so I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about the Catholic Church. I am a strong Catholic myself and so is he. We were talking about what defense we had to know that the Catholic Church is the one true church. We are talking about it from the non-Bible believer point of view,

If you are coming from a non-bible believers point of view, I guess all you have is your FAITH in the bible. What else can you tell a non-believer? Faith is a gift, either you have it or you don’t. Trying to convince a non-believer in the Bible is not your work, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

and neither one of us had a good answer to begin with. After discussing it for a little longer, we came across the question:

“Why isn’t Judaism the correct religion since we split away from them? (Similar to the other Christian religions split away from us.) We could claim they refused to believe; but Calvinists could also claim that.”

The “split” came when Jesus died on that cross and the curtain in the Jewish temple was SPLIT in half. Meaning, we all had entry into the Holy of Holies - not just a Jewish priest on the day of atonement. Jews refused to believe Jesus was their Messiah, they split from the one true church, that would be the Catholic church which was founded by Jesus.

Any incites on how to answer that question?

The defense you have to tell other non-believes is that it is your FAITH, that you were given at baptism through the Holy Spirit. That is all you have to worry about. There is no discussion other than it is your belief and your faith.

Thanks!
-LiveForChrist
 
“Why isn’t Judaism the correct religion since we split away from them? (Similar to the other Christian religions split away from us.) We could claim they refused to believe; but Calvinists could also claim that.”
We didn’t split from Judaism. God came and died, fullfilling the old covenant, and then forming a new. We ARE Judaism, but we are new covenant Jews who are completed in Christ.
 
Ok, so I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about the Catholic Church. I am a strong Catholic myself and so is he. We were talking about what defense we had to know that the Catholic Church is the one true church. We are talking about it from the non-Bible believer point of view, and neither one of us had a good answer to begin with. After discussing it for a little longer, we came across the question:

“Why isn’t Judaism the correct religion since we split away from them? (Similar to the other Christian religions split away from us.) We could claim they refused to believe; but Calvinists could also claim that.”

Any incites on how to answer that question?
Well, let’s take a look at it.

Proposition: Judaism is the correct religion because it predates Christianity, and Christianity “split away from it.” (Like others in this thread, I disagree with the idea that Christianity split away from Judaism, but I’ll leave that for now)

But if we decide that Judaism is the correct religion, we are then hit with the task of trying to discern exactly which type of Judaism is the correct religion. After all, there is a big difference between the practices of Abraham and the Patriarchs (which I will refer to as Abrahamic Judaism) and the practices which were instituted during the time of Moses (which I will call Mosaic Judaism). As a side note, I am aware that the term “Judaism” did not exist in the time of Abraham because it is derived from the name of Judah, son of Jacob/Israel, but I’m just using this term for ease of conversation.

During the time of the Patriarchs, the head of each household was considered a type of priest, and there was no Temple nor synagogues. The head of the household simply erected an altar outside and offered sacrifices. During the time of Moses, as a result of the Golden Calf event, God commanded that only men from the tribe of Levi could be priests, so they were in charge of making sacrifices on behalf of the people. Eventually the Temple was constructed (during the reign of King Solomon) as the only place where sacrifices could be offered, and therefore the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 effectively ended the Levitical priesthood.

So which form of Judaism is supposed to be the “correct religion”, Abrahamic or Mosaic?

If, when compared to Christianity, someone says that Mosaic Judaism is the correct religion because it predates Christianity then using that exact same line of reasoning, one could argue that Abrahamic Judaism is the correct version of Judaism. After all, Abrahamic Judaism predated Mosaic Judaism. And if people decided to practice Abrahamic Judaism, they would have to emulate the practices in the Book of Genesis and throw out the rest of the Bible. Hence, I doubt if many people would sincerely consider this the “correct religion”.

On the other hand, if people decide that the “correct religion” is Mosaic Judaism rather than Abrahamic, then this means that they believe that, even though the Abrahamic version is the oldest type of Judaism, it is important to accept the revelation which God gave through Moses. Hence, it is ok that Mosaic Judaism has many significant changes from Abrahamic Judaism, because God is the one who made the changes.

But while being obedient to what God revealed to Moses, we would naturally be compelled to accept the messianic prophecy from Deuteronomy 18:15 which indicates that the Messiah would be a prophet like Moses, and God commanded the people to heed the Messiah when he comes. According to Christianity, Jesus is the Messiah described in that passage from Deuteronomy, and therefore we are to heed him. This would include being a part of the Church he founded on the Apostles. Therefore, the exact same line of reasoning that allows one to accept Mosaic Judaism over the older Abrahamic Judaism also allows one to accept Christianity over the older Mosaic Judaism.
 
The earliest “Christians” were Jews. It was called the Way. When they were thrown out of the synagogues then is when the term Christians came into use.

In fact, Rosalind Moss (who was a Jew), on her way into Catholicism went to a Mass. She called it a synagogue. Why? Because the worship is very similar.

My priest today sang all the prayers including the Eucharistic prayer. He has a beautiful voice and I love when he does this. :highprayer:

In a synagogue, he would be doing what a cantor does. Except the cantor is not the Rabbi.
 
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