How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

[cap76]

What does Vatican ii do with the The Council of Trent, Session iv, Decrees of Justfication, chapter 16, canons(especially canon 30) which reads:
If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened,* let him be anathema**.*

Protestants hold tenaciously to an understanding that justification is simply a declaration that someone is righteous, or just, or innocent. The reason for this is they understand that Christ’s death accomplished the complete remission of sin for all believers, and the blotting of all their sin. And that because of what Christ accomplished, “there is therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8

How does Vatican ii dismiss the RCC regard for Protestants as “the accursed”?
How can the RCC reconcile with those who hold to doctrines so contrary to their own?

 

[PJM]

=cap76;9973539]What does Vatican ii do with the The Council of Trent, Session iv, Decrees of Justfication, chapter 16, canons(especially canon 30) which reads:
If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened,* let him be anathema***.

Protestants hold tenaciously to an understanding that justification is simply a declaration that someone is righteous, or just, or innocent. The reason for this is they understand that Christ’s death accomplished the complete remission of sin for all believers, and the blotting of all their sin. And that because of what Christ accomplished, “there is therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8

How does Vatican ii dismiss the RCC regard for Protestants as “the accursed”?
How can the RCC reconcile with those who hold to doctrines so contrary to their own?

TRENT deified pretty much ALL that we Carholics ARE to believe, accept, and practice.

Vatican II did not intend to acomplish that same goal. It served more of a clarification it seems to me, than did TRENT and both were under vastly differing circumstances.

TRENT intended to DEFINE and DEFEND what the CC is, was, and is to be in a time of rampant herisies.

Vatican II was more about “modernizing” IMO what many felt was “outdated” practices.

 

[cap76]

TRENT deified pretty much ALL that we Carholics ARE to believe, accept, and practice.

Vatican II did not intend to acomplish that same goal. It served more of a clarification it seems to me, than did TRENT and both were under vastly differing circumstances.

TRENT intended to DEFINE and DEFEND what the CC is, was, and is to be in a time of rampant herisies.

Vatican II was more about “modernizing” IMO what many felt was “outdated” practices.

Does this mean the anathema’s pronounced by Trent no longer apply?

 

[R_C]

No.

Last time I checked, our protestant brothers are still not in full communion with the Catholic Church and may not partake of the Holy Eucharist.

However, there is a difference. The Catechism states:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

 

[cap76]

No.

Last time I checked, our protestant brothers are still not in full communion with the Catholic Church and may not partake of the Holy Eucharist.

However, there is a difference. The Catechism states:

How could someone be incorporated into Christ and considered a brother while refused admittance to the Holy Eucharist? Is the Holy Eucharist essential to salvation?

Besides, it is the doctrines anathematized by Trent which separates the Protestants from the RCC not their birth.

 

[R_C]

How could someone be incorporated into Christ and considered a brother while refused admittance to the Holy Eucharist? Is the Holy Eucharist essential to salvation?

Besides, it is the doctrines anathematized by Trent which separates the Protestants from the RCC not their birth.

**Baptism **is essential to salvation. And even there, the Sacred Tradition has discerned that salvation is truly universal, therefore there are mysterious ways that extend it to those, for instance, who by invincible ignorance do not know Christ, for Deus non alligatur Sacramentis (“God is not tied to the Sacraments”).

We are all creatures of God, therefore all brothers. All the Baptized, by virtue of their valid Baptism, are incorporated into the mystical body of Christ, and therefore are our brothers in Christ. However, we cannot admit them to partake of the Holy Eucharist for their own sake, because they do not know - or rather, refuse to accept - what it truly is.

You are right to say that it is the doctrines that separates them, but someone born into a protestant doctrine cannot be accused of being a schismatic or heretic…only someone previously Catholic could become such by denying some of the teachings of the Church or separating from Her.

We still affirm that the one Church subsists in the Catholic Church governed by Peter’s successor and the bishops in communion with him. All are called to work towards the restoration of the unity of the Church, which must become by the will of Christ “one flock with one shepherd”.

(Please note that if I post something without any source for verification, it counts only as my thoughts on the matter, which may be erroneous and I may be recalling wrong or have learned something incorrectly.)

 

[PJM]

=cap76;9973879]Does this mean the anathema’s pronounced by Trent no longer apply?

NO!

The Decrees of an World-wide Council are held as Infallible. Neither Doctrine nor dogma may [can] be changed. BUT a futher understanding and defination are possible.

THOSE THINGS THAT ARE ONLY “PRACTICES” NOT SIMPLY BELIEFS CAN BE CHANGED.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[T_More]

I think the bigger question is how can we reconcile some of the problematic statments in the VII documents in light of the rest of the Church’s councils, not just the Council of Trent.

I simply can’t see how one can, on examination of the prior infallible teachings of the Church from previous councils, decrees, Papal Bulls, etc., and Sacred Tradition, reconcile specific areas of the documents such Lumen Gentium, Dignitatis Humanae and Unitatis Redintegratio, no matter how much the hermeneutic of continuity is used.

 

[moon1234]

You have just come to the problem that plagues the SSPX and many other people not a part of SSPX that study the history of the Church.

It makes you wonder WHY Rome will not address these issues.

For many, including myself, I just detach from most of the modern documents. They are not held infallible so I do not ascribe any meaning to them where they seem to contradict prior teaching of the Church.

It becomes much harder when you are questioned by those who know only 1960 and beyond. I, mostly, just avoid these people. They, for the most part, do not want to hear that what they have learned may not be in harmony with what the Church has taught in the past.

I am raising my family with the TLM and trying my best to impart an authentic Catholic faith on them. They need to be able to recogize what is in harmony with tradition and what is innovation or just the whim of the times. This is not easy.

I find that attending Mass (for me that is TLM), going to confession and praying help. You may find some insights here: alfonsogalvez.com/en/

Fr. Galvez is one of those ports in the storm for me.

 

[thewanderer]

What does Vatican ii do with the The Council of Trent, Session iv, Decrees of Justfication, chapter 16, canons(especially canon 30) which reads:
If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened,* let him be anathema***.

Protestants hold tenaciously to an understanding that justification is simply a declaration that someone is righteous, or just, or innocent. The reason for this is they understand that Christ’s death accomplished the complete remission of sin for all believers, and the blotting of all their sin. And that because of what Christ accomplished, “there is therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8

How does Vatican ii dismiss the RCC regard for Protestants as “the accursed”?
How can the RCC reconcile with those who hold to doctrines so contrary to their own?

First, its important to note that not all protestants hold this teaching.

Second, its important to realize that some people are ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own. Or honestly seek the truth but have not yet realized the mistakes that have been inculcated into them by others. Such people are not truly culpable for their mistaken beliefs.

Third, even for those who are truly culpable for their mistaken beliefs it is important to recognize that in any attempt of dialogue with another (and if you ever wish to show another the truth some amount of dialogue will be necessary) it is extremely important to find the common groun between you first and emphasize this common ground so that you have a good starting place on which to base your discussion. In other words, you emphasize what it is that they have correct, and applaud them for their correct beliefs, and then go on to discuss the areas where you disagree using your common ground as fuel for your arguments for the truth. Holding all protestants at a distance and looking down on them and refusing to acknowledge what truth they do possess will not help them see the truth of Catholicism, instead it will drive them further away. And of course I am not advocating a watering down of the truth, but rather a recognition of the bits of truth that are contained in other religions. For instance, protestants believe that Christ is God, that he came to save us, that the Bible is the Word of God, etc. All of those things are true, and it is great that protestants recognize them as such. Why in the world would it be wrong to praise them for at least having got as much right as they have? To give them encouragement to hold on to those correct beliefs so that they will not fall so far away from the truth as to lose faith in Christ or the Bible?

 

[PJM]

=T More;9978587]I think the bigger question is how can we reconcile some of the problematic statments in the VII documents in light of the rest of the Church’s councils, not just the Council of Trent.

I simply can’t see how one can, on examination of the prior infallible teachings of the Church from previous councils, decrees, Papal Bulls, etc., and Sacred Tradition, reconcile specific areas of the documents such Lumen Gentium, Dignitatis Humanae and Unitatis Redintegratio, no matter how much the hermeneutic of continuity is used.

Friend, would you please be more specific and provide some examples

 

[T_More]

Friend, would you please be more specific and provide some examples

Sure.

*“This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, continues to exist (subsists) in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines.” Lumen Gentium. *

**“We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present, namely: Indifferentism, that vicious “vice-filled”] manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt they will perish in eternity unless they hold to the Catholic faith and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE.” Pope Gregory XVI

“If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and that of those who have not yet come to the true faith is equal: let him be anathema.” I Vatican Council

“Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church. Neither salvation nor salvation can be found outside the Catholic Church. It is a SIN to believe that there is salvation outside the Castholic Church.” Ven. Pope Pius IX

“All graces given to those outside the Church are given them for the purpose of bringing them inside the Church.” St. Augustine **

*"All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation. Lumen Gentium *

**"It is an error in a matter of divine truth to imagine the Church as invisible, by which many Christian communities, although they differ from each other in theirfaith, are united by a bond that is invisible to the senses. Pope Pius XII

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all can be saved.” Lateran Council IV Pope Innocent III

“Faith in Christ cannot be maintained pure and unalloyed when it is not protected and supported by faith in the Church. Faith in Christ and faith in the Church stand together. If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from her, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.” Pope Pius XI

“Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted.” Catechism of Trent **

“These Christians are indeed in some real way joined to us in the Holy Spirit for, by His gifts and graces, His sanctifying power is also active in them, and He has strengthened some of them even to the shedding of their blood.” Lumen Gentium

**“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation; for their is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Truth, grace, the Sacraments: all the certain norms for our journey to God come from the Church. The Catholic Church is the extension of Jesus Christ in time and space. Outside this Body the Holy Spirit does not give life to anyone. Those who are enemies ot unity do not participate in the charity of divine life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. A Christian must fear nothing so much as to be separated from the Body of Christ. If he is separated from Christ’s Body, he is not one of His members; he is not fed by His Spirit.” Pope Paul VI

“If those unwilling to be at agreement in the Church be slain outside the Church, they cannot attain to the rewards fo the Church.” Pope Pelagius II

“No one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” Council of Florence, Pope Eugene IV **

*“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or of His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation.” Lumen Gentium *

**“I confess that the Lord will give over by a very just judgment to the punishment of eternal and inextinguishable fire the wicked who either did not know by way of the Lord or, knowing it, left it when seized by various transgressions, in order that they may burn without end.” Pope Pelagius I

“The saving grace of this religion, the only true religion, through which alone true salvation is truly promised, has never been refused to anyone who was worthy of it; and whoever did lack it was unworthy of it. Consequently, those who have not heard the Gospel, and those who, having heard it have not persevered; and those who, having heard it, have refused to come to Christ; that is, to believe in Him; ALL these have perished in death: the all go in a single lump to condemnation.” St. Augustine

“It is error to believe that there is a natural justice whereby eternal life is promised for good works without any further qualification.” Pope St. Pius V

“Acts which spring from natural goodness have only the appearance of virtue; they cannot last of themselves nor can they merit salvation.” Pope St. Pius X

“He who is separated from the Body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may seem otherwise, will never enjoy eternal life.” Council of Cirta (Regional) **

…more to follow…

 

[T_More]

*Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at any explicit knowledge of God and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Lumen Gentium *

**Belief in God alone seems necessary by a necessity of means, not, however, explicit faith in a Rewarder. Pope St. Innocent XI

It would seem that man is not bound to believe anything explicitly, for no man is bound to do what is not in his power. On the contrary, it is written “He who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that he is a Rewarder to those who seek Him” (Heb.11:6). Therefore, as regards the primary points or articles of faith, man is bound to believe them just as he is bound to have the Faith. Both learned men and simple men are bound to EXPLICIT Faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly those publicly proclaimed and observed throughout the whole Church. St. Thomas Aquinas

The ruin of souls is wrought by this single cause: Ignorance of those most sublime truths, so far beyond the natural understanding of the multitutde, which nonetheless must be known by all men in order that they may attain eternal salvation. We positively maintain that the will of man cannot be upright, nor his conduct good, while his intellect is the slave of crass ignorance. This We solemnly affirm: the majority of those who are condemned to eternal punishment fall into this everlasting misfortune through ignorance of the mysteries of the Faith which must necessarily be known and believed by all who belong to the Elect. Pope St. Pius X

Whoever is separated from the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his life may be in his own opinion, he shall for this very reason – that he is at the same time separated fro the unity of Christ – NOT see life; rather the wrath of God abideth on him. In the Catholic Church there are both good and bad, but those who are separated from her cannot be good. For, though the speech of some of them appears commendable, nevetheless their very separation from the Church makes them bad according to Our Savior:“He who is not with Me is against Me” (Mt 12:30). St. Augustine **

*One cannot charge with the sin of separation those at present born into communities separated from full communion with the Catholic Church and, in them, brought up in the faith of Christ; and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. For, men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Decree on Ecumenism, “Unitatis Redintegratio,” Nov. 21, 1964 *

**Since it is recognized that it is extremely rare to find men entirely devoid of religious sense, some people entertain the hope that nations, in spite of their differing religious viewpoints, may be brought to unite as brothers in the profession of certain doctrines as a common foundation of the spiritual life. Certainly, such efforts as these cannot receive the approval of Catholics, for they rest on the false opinion which regards any religion whatsoever to be more-or-less praiseworthy and good. Those who hold this opinion are in grave error; they even debase the concept of the true religion and lapse, little by little, into naturalism and atheism. Pope Pius XI

It is error to believe that Protestantism is nothing other than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is permitted to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. There is no equality between the condition of those who have adhered to Catholic truth by the gift of Faith and of those who follow a false religion. Venerable Pope Pius IX C) Christ is one and His Church is one; one is the Faith, and one the people cemented together into the strong unity of a Body. That unity cannot be split nor cut up into fragments. Nothing that is separated from the parent stock can ever live or breathe apart - ALL hope of its salvation is lost. If a person calls himself a “Christian,” the Devil too often calls himself “Christ” – and is a liar! Just as the Devil is not Christ, so likewise a man cannot be taken as a Christian if he does not abide in Christ’s Gospel and in the true Faith. St. Cyprian, Doctor of the Church

Children baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason, they make formal profession of heresy; as, for example, by receiving communion in a non-Catholic church. St. Augustine **

…more to follow…

 

[T_More]

All who have been justified by Faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ: they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Unitatis Redintegratio

**Who is to be called a Christian? He who confesses the doctrine of Jesus Christ IN HIS CHURCH. Hence, he who is truly a Christian thoroughly detests all cults and sects found OUTSIDE the doctrine and OUTSIDE the Church of Christ, everywhere and among all peoples, as for example the Jewish, the Mohammedan, and the heretical cults and sects [of Protestants]. St. Peter Canisius, SJ, Doctor of the Church

Christianity is incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is IDENTIFIED with that perfect and spiritual society which has the Roman Pontiff for its visible head. Pope Leo XIII

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII

No one is our brother unless he has the same Father we do. St. Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church

In NO way can men be counted among the children of God unless they take the Church for their Mother. Pope Leo XIII

No one can have God for his Father if he does not have the Church for his Mother. One cannot love Christ without loving the Church which Christ loves. The spirit of the Church is the spirit of Christ, and to the extent to which one loves the Church of Christ does he possess the Holy Spirit. Pope John Paul II **

The life of grace, faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church. Unitatis Redintegratio

**As Christ is the head of the Church, so is the Holy Ghost her soul. ONLY those are really to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and who profess the true Faith and who have not unhappily withdrawn from the Body or, for grave reasons, been excluded by legitimate authority. It follows that those who are divided in faith or in government cannot be living in one Body such as this, and cannot be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. Pius XII

Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to NO ONE; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if a man be separated from the Body of Christ he is not one of His members nor is he fed by His Spirit. Pope Paul VI

If a member be cut off … his life is lost. The Spirit does not follow the amputated member … Outside the Church you can find everything except salvation: you can have dignities, Sacraments, the Gospels, the faith - and preach it, too! - but never can you find salvation except in the Catholic Church. St. Augustine **

The brethren divided from us also carry out many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These actions most certainly can truly engender a life of grace and, one must say, can aptly give access to the communion of salvation. Unitatis Redintegratio

**By means of religious Indifferentism, crafty men deceitfully pretend that people can attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion, as though there could be any fellowship of light with darkness. These men conclude that not only sons of the Church but also others, however estranged they may remain from Catholic unity, are equally on the road to salvation and are able to achieve everlasting life. Words fail Us from utter HORROR in detesting and abhorring this new and terrible insult! Ven. Pope Pius IX

The Church alone has the legitimate worship of sacrifice and the salutary use of the Sacraments. Hence, to possess true holiness, we must belong to her and embrace her, like those who entered the Ark to escape perishing in the Flood. Catechism of Trent

The Holy Catholic Church teaches that God cannot be adored except within her fold; she affirms that all those who are separated from her will not be saved. Pope St. Gregory the Great.

No one is as far from the Pasch of the Lord as heretics. They can have no part with Him who are enemies of this saving Mystery. For they deny the Gospel and contradict the Creed, and they cannot celebrate the Paschal Feast with us. And though they dare to claim the name of “Christian,” nevertheless every creature whose Head is Christ scorns them. Pope St. Leo the Great **

In certain circumstances, it is allowable, indeed desirable, that Catholics join in prayer with their separated brethren. Unitatis Redintegratio

**No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage (Regional)

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople (Ecumenical)

That the faithful and clergy should pray for Christian unity under the leadership of heretics can in no way be tolerated. Ven. Pope Pius IX

Is it permitted for Catholics to be present at, or take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement all who in any way lay claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! It is clear, therefore, why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics. There is only one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from her. Pope Pius XI **

 

[T_More]

By the Sacrament of Baptism, whenever it is properly conferred in the way the Lord determined, and received with the proper disposition of soul, man becomes truly incorporated into Christ and is born to a sharing of the divine life. Unitatis Redintegratio

**If anyone says that baptized persons are freed from all the Precepts of Holy Church, either those contained in Scripture or handed down by Tradition, so that they are not bound to observe them unless of their own accord they wish to submit themselves to these Precepts: Let him be anathema. Council of Trent (Ecumenical)

Do not all those who are baptized belong to the Church? Yes, but membership in the Church requires conditions OTHER than Baptism alone: it requires IDENTICAL Faith and UNITY of communion. Pope Paul VI

Besides a desire to be baptized, Faith is also necessary to obtain the grace of the Sacrament [of Baptism]. Our Lord said: “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved” (Mk 16:16). Catechism of Trent

The Church is one, unified, and articulated after the maner of a physical body. Therefore, whosoever is not joined to the Body is NOT a member of it ,and is NOT in union with Christ its Head. Pope Pius XI

The Church gives us to understand that some people cn receive Baptism outside her, but that NO one can either receive or possess salvation outside her; for, outside the Church there is no remission of sins. St. Augustine

A person would be deceiving himself by the fact that he had been re-bornof water. The branch that has been cut from the vine resembles any other branch, but what does it [outward] form avail if it does not live off the root? Pope Gregory XVI

Whether in the Catholic Church or in any heretical or schismatical church, if anyone receives the Sacrament of Baptism, he receives it intact; but he will not have salvation if he received that Sacrament outside the Catholic Church. Eternal life can never in any way be obtained by one who, with the Sacrament of Baptism, remains a stranger to the Catholic Church. Hold most firmly, and do not doubt at all, that the Sacrament of Baptism can exist among heretics, but that outside the Catholic Church it cannot be of profit. For the unity of this ecclesiastical society is of such value for salvation that he is not saved by Baptism to whom it has not been administered where it ought to have been. Hold most firmly, and do not doubt at all, that everyone baptized outside the Catholic Church cannot be made a partaker of eternal life is before the end of this earthly life he does not return to the Catholic Church and become incorporated with it. St. Fulgentius **

The Christian way of life of these [Protestant] brethren is nourished by Faith in Christ. It is strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the Word of God. Unitatis Redintegratio

**It is impossible to understand the Divine Word outside the Church. St. Hilary of Poitiers, Father and Doctor of the Church.

Neither the true Faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church. Ven. Pope Pius IX

He who does not embrace the teaching of the Church does not have the Habit of Faith. Neither formed nor formless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves ONE SINGLE article of Faith. All who deny one article of Faith, regardless of their reason, are by that very fact excommunicated. St. Thomas Aquinas

He who does not believe according to the Tradition of the Catholic Church is an unbeliever. St. John Damascene, Father and Doctor of the Church

A man cannot be taken for a Christian who does not abide in Christ’s Gospel and in the true Faith. St. Cyprian **

I can quote some others if you wish.

 

[PJM]

=cap76;9973539]What does Vatican ii do with the The Council of Trent, Session iv, Decrees of Justfication, chapter 16, canons(especially canon 30) which reads:
If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened,* let him be anathema***.

Protestants hold tenaciously to an understanding that justification is simply a declaration that someone is righteous, or just, or innocent. The reason for this is they understand that Christ’s death accomplished the complete remission of sin for all believers, and the blotting of all their sin. And that because of what Christ accomplished, “there is therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8

How does Vatican ii dismiss the RCC regard for Protestants as “the accursed”?
How can the RCC reconcile with those who hold to doctrines so contrary to their own?

That friend is a REALLY GREAT question:thumbsup:

Like I said eariler; they had different goals and agendas, so it’s a difficult task.

If your goal is to point out the differences; they are well known.

BUT keep in mind that “INDULTS” have bben issued and make the changes valid.

Also TRENT delt exrensively with Doctrines and Dogmas, while vatican II delt more with “church practices”

Practices can be changed; Dogma and Doctines cannot

If you could be a bit more specific on what you seek; perhaps I or others could be of more help to you?

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[Brendan]

Sure.

*“This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, continues to exist (subsists) in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines.” Lumen Gentium. *…

Come on, that one is so easy a high schooler should be able to answer that one.

When a Lutheran teaches about a Triune God ,that is an element of Truth that is found outside of the visible Church.

When an Episcolalian child is Baptized, that is an element of sanctificiation that is found outside the visable Church.

Lumen Gentium is quite correct. There ARE elements of Truth and Sanctification found outside the visble confines of the Church. But only the Catholic Church has the FULLNESS of Truth.

All of those I listed are, in fact elements of the Church itself, for there is no true teaching of God that is not from the Church, and no Sacraments that not of the Church ( we beleive in ONE Baptism after all ,check your Creed). Those elements do exist outside the Church and only a fool would attempt to claim otherwise.

After all, Lumen Gentium claimed that elements of Sanctification are found outside of the visible Church.

1. Lutheran Baptize using the Tritarian formula
2. Lutherans are outside the visible confines of the Church
3. The Baptism of Lutherans are valid. (Trent S VII De Baptismo)
4. A valid Baptism is an element of Sactification (again Trent S VII)

Ergo, Lumen Gentium is correct ( and in accord with Trent), there are elements of Salvation outside the visible Church.

(FYI, the exact same logic can show that there are elements of Truth, ie that God is a Triune Godhead) outside the visible structure of the Church as well.

 

[T_More]

Come on, that one is so easy a high schooler should be able to answer that one.

When a Lutheran teaches about a Triune God ,that is an element of Truth that is found outside of the visible Church.

When an Episcolalian child is Baptized, that is an element of sanctificiation that is found outside the visable Church.

Lumen Gentium is quite correct. There ARE elements of Truth and Sanctification found outside the visble confines of the Church. But only the Catholic Church has the FULLNESS of Truth.

All of those I listed are, in fact elements of the Church itself, for there is no true teaching of God that is not from the Church, and no Sacraments that not of the Church ( we beleive in ONE Baptism after all ,check your Creed). Those elements do exist outside the Church and only a fool would attempt to claim otherwise.

After all, Lumen Gentium claimed that elements of Sanctification are found outside of the visible Church.

1. Lutheran Baptize using the Tritarian formula
2. Lutherans are outside the visible confines of the Church
3. The Baptism of Lutherans are valid. (Trent S VII De Baptismo)
4. A valid Baptism is an element of Sactification (again Trent S VII)

Ergo, Lumen Gentium is correct ( and in accord with Trent), there are elements of Salvation outside the visible Church.

(FYI, the exact same logic can show that there are elements of Truth, ie that God is a Triune Godhead) outside the visible structure of the Church as well.

Can “elements” of salvation save anyone, or don’t you have to meet the full requirements as commanded by the Voice of God, the Catholic Church? Can “parts” of truth suffice for the fullness of the Catholic Faith, or is all of it demanded of us, as the Church infallibly teaches? Moreover, did Jesus “constitute and organize” His Church on earth as a “society” or not, rather, as a Body – His own continuing (subsisting) Body on earth?

Please show where Trent expressly teaches “elements of Salvation” exist outside of the Church.

 

[T_More]

Ergo, Lumen Gentium is correct ( and in accord with Trent), there are elements of Salvation outside the visible Church.

You are saying something that even this quote from Lumen Gentium does not say. It says sanctification, and your saying salvation. Since the two are not the same, could you explain this?

 

[Brendan]

Can “elements” of salvation save anyone, or don’t you have to meet the full requirements as commanded by the Voice of God, the Catholic Church? Can “parts” of truth suffice for the fullness of the Catholic Faith, or is all of it demanded of us, as the Church infallibly teaches? Moreover, did Jesus “constitute and organize” His Church on earth as a “society” or not, rather, as a Body – His own continuing (subsisting) Body on earth?

Please show where Trent expressly teaches “elements of Salvation” exist outside of the Church.

I did. Trent, Session 7 teaches that Baptism is essential to Salvation, and that the Baptism of heretics is Valid. Are you really trying to claim that Baptism is NOT an element of Salvation???

Now a question for you. If a child is Baptized by a Lutheran, and dies shortly afterward, what does the Church state on the State of Grace of that infants soul?

In regards to ‘elements’, that was the term used by LG. See what a
I posted above and tell me which of the logical points you find Error with ( Specify by number please)