How do we respond to the argument that abortion is OK when it saves the Mother's life

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This procedure, removal of a ruptured tube, saves the
life of the mother and produces an INDIRECT ABORTION.
Because of the nature of the procedure, the baby dies. The abortion
is not willed as an abortion. The surgery is carried out
to prevent the death of the mother - NOT to destroy a baby.
That is just casuistry, the procedure involves “removal of a ruptured tube with an embryo inside” which is not equivalent to a simple “ruptured tube” any more than a car with no occupants is equivalent to a car with people inside.
 
That is just casuistry, the procedure involves “removal of a ruptured tube with an embryo inside” which is not equivalent to a simple “ruptured tube” any more than a car with no occupants is equivalent to a car with people inside.
Casuistry is a legitimate discipline, though it should be subordinated to virtue ethics and shouldn’t be the primary approach used in Christian ethics.

The point is that the intention is not to kill the child.

I really appreciate the clear exposition of the Catholic position by a number of posters here–this is what I thought the Catholic position was (and I thoroughly agree with it), but I don’t always hear it expressed that clearly.

I do have a question about the case some months ago in which a Catholic hospital performed an “abortion” to save the mother’s life and was disciplined by the bishop for so doing. What exactly was done in that case and why was it against Catholic teaching? Were there other options that the Catholic medical professionals at that hospital could have followed? And if so, why did no one suggest those options?

Edwin
 
That is just casuistry, the procedure involves “removal of a ruptured tube with an embryo inside” which is not equivalent to a simple “ruptured tube” any more than a car with no occupants is equivalent to a car with people inside.
Yes, of course the baby dies.
I’m repeating Church Teaching regarding indirect abortion.

What is your point?
 
Puzzleannie, you are correct except in failing to note that in the pre-viable stage of pregancy, vaginal delivery or cesarean section also constitute abortion.
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no the do not absolutely constitute direct abortion, although death of the infant might be the unintended consequence of the early delivery. The circumstances under which these can be moral therapies are very narrow and need the services of a competent OB as well as Catholic ethicist but they exist. For instance a cancererous uterus can be removed, which will also of necessity involve a delivery of the fetus in the uterus, but medical science still is obliged to take all steps to save the lives of both patients. that is indirect abortion, not a deliberate action whose sole purpose is to end the life of the child.

each cancerous uterus, ectopic pregnancy or other emergency needs to be approached and evaluated on its merits, treatment initiated be the most ethical and most medically appropriate considering the lives of both patients. In some cases the treatment will almost certainly result in the death of the fetus, but is not the intended consequence. the real life application of these principles is narrow and precise and in an emergency those in charge do their best in the time allowed to them. Which is why Catholic hospitals have to have policies in place, and have to employ doctors who understand and apply them.
 
I do have a question about the case some months ago in which a Catholic hospital performed an “abortion” to save the mother’s life and was disciplined by the bishop for so doing. What exactly was done in that case and why was it against Catholic teaching? Were there other options that the Catholic medical professionals at that hospital could have followed? And if so, why did no one suggest those options?
Edwin
There was an analysis of the case done, and the whole text is available. It was done by M. Therese Lysaught, Ph.D., Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies
Department of Theology, Marquette University

commonwealmagazine.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/St.-Josephs-Hospital-Analysis.pdf

I think there’s a statement from the US Bishops as well, but I don’t have that link available. I believe Bishop Olmstead issued his own statement too. I’m sure someone has it, and will provide it soon.

Edited to add: I found Bishop Olmstead’s statement:
catholicsun.org/2010/may/15/DIOCESE-STATEMENT-051410.pdf
and here’s another:
ncrnews.org/documents/olmsted_statement_dec21_2010.pdf

I didn’t find the link to the US Bishops’ statement though. Does anyone else have that link?

So there’s a lot of material to read about that case as it made big news.
 
no the do not absolutely constitute direct abortion, although death of the infant might be the unintended consequence of the early delivery. The circumstances under which these can be moral therapies are very narrow and need the services of a competent OB as well as Catholic ethicist but they exist. For instance a cancererous uterus can be removed, which will also of necessity involve a delivery of the fetus in the uterus, but medical science still is obliged to take all steps to save the lives of both patients. that is indirect abortion, not a deliberate action whose sole purpose is to end the life of the child.

each cancerous uterus, ectopic pregnancy or other emergency needs to be approached and evaluated on its merits, treatment initiated be the most ethical and most medically appropriate considering the lives of both patients. In some cases the treatment will almost certainly result in the death of the fetus, but is not the intended consequence. the real life application of these principles is narrow and precise and in an emergency those in charge do their best in the time allowed to them. Which is why Catholic hospitals have to have policies in place, and have to employ doctors who understand and apply them.
The point I was trying to make is that in the normal course of things (apart from within discussions such as this) few people make the distinction between direct and indirect abortion; secular medicine doesn’t, public comments from the Church usually don’t stress that either (to the best of my memory). That in mind, we have to consider that simply telling people abortion is not allowed, does not address most life-threatening situations that would exist in a complicated pregnancy. This may account for many people who oppose abortion but believe it is justified in the case of threat to a mother’s life: maybe they just don’t realize there are treatments which predictably lead to the baby’s death that are not necessarily considered immoral by the Church.
 
There was an analysis of the case done, and the whole text is available. It was done by M. Therese Lysaught, Ph.D., Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies
Department of Theology, Marquette University

commonwealmagazine.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/St.-Josephs-Hospital-Analysis.pdf

I think there’s a statement from the US Bishops as well, but I don’t have that link available. I believe Bishop Olmstead issued his own statement too. I’m sure someone has it, and will provide it soon.

Edited to add: I found Bishop Olmstead’s statement:
catholicsun.org/2010/may/15/DIOCESE-STATEMENT-051410.pdf
and here’s another:
ncrnews.org/documents/olmsted_statement_dec21_2010.pdf

I didn’t find the link to the US Bishops’ statement though. Does anyone else have that link?

So there’s a lot of material to read about that case as it made big news.
Rence, thank you so much for that information. I’d like to hear more analysis, though, since this is a case that has caused a lot of scandal in the broader culture (it’s given the impression to many that the Catholic Church really doesn’t care about the life or health of pregnant women). I find Prof. Lysaught’s arguments highly convincing, but I’d like to hear a response from those who support Bishop Olmsted. I also wonder how much the issue here is trust. It sounds as if Bishop +Olmsted has a history of conflict with the hospital and believes he has reasons to mistrust their adherence to Catholic ethical norms. If they have been repeatedly doing things that don’t conform to those norms, he may not have been disposed to believe their representation of what they did, or to look seriously into the question of whether this particular action is really as contrary to Catholic teaching as it seems.

Edwin
 
Rence, thank you so much for that information. I’d like to hear more analysis, though, since this is a case that has caused a lot of scandal in the broader culture (it’s given the impression to many that the Catholic Church really doesn’t care about the life or health of pregnant women). I find Prof. Lysaught’s arguments highly convincing, but I’d like to hear a response from those who support Bishop Olmsted. I also wonder how much the issue here is trust. It sounds as if Bishop +Olmsted has a history of conflict with the hospital and believes he has reasons to mistrust their adherence to Catholic ethical norms. If they have been repeatedly doing things that don’t conform to those norms, he may not have been disposed to believe their representation of what they did, or to look seriously into the question of whether this particular action is really as contrary to Catholic teaching as it seems.
Edwin
I truly believe you hit the nail on the head up there where I underlined. This hospital had a long history of conflict with the Bishop. It’s unfortunate that this churned out the way it did because it leaves onlookers more disturbed and confused. IMOHO, this was more about that struggle between them than the case at hand. The Church does care about the life and health of the woman, but calls health care providers to care for both equally and find a solution for both.

I don’t know if there was a similarly thorough analysis done by someone who supported Bishop Olmstead, but if there is you’ll find it by searching for it. To my knowledge, there wasn’t anything like that done. Just the statements that the Bishop made. What about the Bishop’s diocese website? Have you tried there?l
 
and the child would die anyway? If abortion saves one, isn’t it better than letting 2 die? Even though abortion has intent, doesn’t letting both the mother and child die by refusing one imply you have intent for them to die, if by neglect?
When I was born, my Father was given the problem of saving my Mother or me. He told them to do what was needed to save both, we are both alive today that was in the 1950’s. Today, with the advances in medical science, the reality of saving the mother or child is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very rare, it has become a non-issue in reality.

As for rape or incest, give the child a chance at life, he/she may find a cure for cancer or simply influnce another person to believe in the gospel, maybe. One can choose to be inconvinenced for nine months and give the child up to a loving home for adoption.

We all know today, or at least should know that the stats concerning unsafe back alley abortions were all made up.
 
This procedure, removal of a ruptured tube, saves the
life of the mother and produces an INDIRECT ABORTION.
Because of the nature of the procedure, the baby dies. The abortion
is not willed as an abortion. The surgery is carried out
to prevent the death of the mother - NOT to destroy a baby.
Ah, thats a cop out. It is common sense that the purpose of removing the tube is to get rid of the child. I think this is the type of logic Jesus had in mind when he said, “You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”. Most likely, the tube itself is not deseased, nor the problem. The problem is a child growing in the wrong space. :o
 
When I was born, my Father was given the problem of saving my Mother or me. He told them to do what was needed to save both, we are both alive today that was in the 1950’s. Today, with the advances in medical science, the reality of saving the mother or child is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very rare, it has become a non-issue in reality.

As for rape or incest, give the child a chance at life, he/she may find a cure for cancer or simply influnce another person to believe in the gospel, maybe. One can choose to be inconvinenced for nine months and give the child up to a loving home for adoption.

We all know today, or at least should know that the stats concerning unsafe back alley abortions were all made up.
Sorry to break your line of very-s but situations which put both lives at risk are pretty common: for example hypertension in pregnancy leading to serious complications. Sometimes the babies have to be delivered before they can be reasonably expected to make it on the outside - happens daily, somewhere or the next.
 
Ah, thats a cop out. It is common sense that the purpose of removing the tube is to get rid of the child. I think this is the type of logic Jesus had in mind when he said, “You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”. Most likely, the tube itself is not deseased, nor the problem. The problem is a child growing in the wrong space. :o
Actually - it is Church Teaching, not a cop-out.
Check it out.
 
That is just casuistry, the procedure involves “removal of a ruptured tube with an embryo inside” which is not equivalent to a simple “ruptured tube” any more than a car with no occupants is equivalent to a car with people inside.
Ah, often the tube is not even ruptured, just under stress or inflamed. If the “problem” is removed, the tube will in a short period of time, heal and go back to a state of being “normal”.

Yes, it is sad that a child would have to be aborted under such circumstances. And, I feel for his/her parents.
 
Ah, thats a cop out. It is common sense that the purpose of removing the tube is to get rid of the child. I think this is the type of logic Jesus had in mind when he said, “You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”. Most likely, the tube itself is not deseased, nor the problem. The problem is a child growing in the wrong space. :o
Welcome to an oft-repeated debate! It is a theological consensus (not without dissenters) that allows for saving the mother’s life and as far as I know, it has not been officially espoused by the Church as ‘official teaching’. I agree that the problem is the child being in the wrong space but consider that this mis-location may be secondary to tube disease. Whether tubal disease necessitates surgical removal in our present day and age, is debatable.
 
catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0140.htm

"When Pregnancy Goes Awry: Ectopic Pregnancies
FATHER TADEUSZ PACHOLCZYK
Human pregnancy begins whenever a sperm unites with an egg inside the fallopian tube.

The newly-minted embryo must then travel along the fallopian tube during the next few days before finally implanting into the wall of the mother’s uterus.

In rare instances, the embryo will fail to reach the uterus, and will instead implant in the fallopian tube along the way, which is a very narrow tube not designed to support a pregnancy. Such “tubal pregnancies” are highly risky, because the wall of the tube can stretch only a limited amount before it will rupture from the increasing pressure of the growing fetus, possibly resulting in the death of both mother and child.

Whenever an embryo implants in the wrong place, whether in the fallopian tube or in another place like the abdomen, such a pregnancy is calleId “ectopic” (meaning “out of place”). Ninety-seven percent of all ectopic pregnancies occur within the fallopian tube. Ectopic pregnancy is one of the leading causes of maternal sickness and death in the United States, and presents a formidable challenge to the physician who is trying to help both mother and child.

Of the three commonly performed procedures for addressing ectopic pregnancies, two raise significant moral concerns while the third is morally acceptable.

The first procedure involves a drug called methotrexate, which targets the most rapidly growing cells of the embryo, especially the placenta-like cells which attach the early embryo to the wall of the tube. Some have suggested that methotrexate might preferentially target these placenta-like cells, distinct from the rest of the embryo, so that it could be seen as “indirectly” ending the life of the embryo. Others, however, have noted that these placenta-like cells are in fact a part of the embryo itself (being produced by the embryo, not by the mother), so that the use of methotrexate actually targets a vital organ of the embryo, resulting in his or her death. A significant number of Catholic moralists hold that the use of methotrexate is not morally permissible, because it constitutes a direct attack on the growing child in the tube, and involves a form of direct abortion.

Another morally problematic technique involves cutting along the length of the fallopian tube where the child is embedded and “scooping out” the living body of the child, who dies shortly thereafter. The tube can then be sutured back up. This approach, like the use of methotrexate, leaves the fallopian tube largely intact for possible future pregnancies, but also raises obvious moral objections because it likewise directly causes the death of the child.

Interestingly, both procedures are normally presented to patients exclusive of any moral considerations. They are framed strictly as the means to assure the least damage possible to the mother’s reproductive system. Many doctors will admit, however, that these techniques usually leave the fallopian tube scarred, increasing the chances of yet another tubal pregnancy by setting up the conditions for the occurrence to happen again.

We may never directly take the life of an innocent human being, though we may sometimes tolerate the indirect and unintended loss of life that comes with trying to properly address a life-threatening medical situation.

About half of the cases of tubal pregnancy will resolve on their own, with the embryo being naturally lost without the need for any intervention. When an ectopic pregnancy does not resolve by itself, a morally acceptable approach would involve removal of the whole section of the tube on the side of the woman’s body where the unborn child is lodged. Although this results in reduced fertility for the woman, the section of tube around the growing child has clearly become pathological, and constitutes a mounting threat with time. This threat is addressed by removal of the tube, with the secondary, and unintended, effect that the child within will then die.

In this situation, the intention of the surgeon is directed towards the good effect (removing the damaged tissue to save the mother’s life) while only tolerating the bad effect (death of the ectopic child). Importantly, the surgeon is choosing to act on the tube (a part of the mother’s body) rather than directly on the child. Additionally, the child’s death is not the means via which the cure occurs. If a large tumor, instead of a baby, were present in the tube, the same curative procedure would be employed. It is tubal removal, not the subsequent death of the baby, that is curative for the mother’s condition.

Some say that cutting out a section of the tube with a baby inside is no different than using methotrexate because, in either case, the baby ends up dying. Yet the difference in how the baby dies is, in fact, critical. There is always a difference between killing someone directly and allowing someone to die of indirect causes. We may never directly take the life of an innocent human being, though we may sometimes tolerate the indirect and unintended loss of life that comes with trying to properly address a life-threatening medical situation."
 
Let me get this straight. You have four options:
  • do nothing, which leads to death of the embryo
  • administer methotrexate, which leads to death of the embryo
  • remove the embryo, which leads to death of the embryo
  • remove the embryo AND the fallopian tube, which leads to death of the embryo
You are supposed to choose the last option, which is the most dangerous (short of doing nothing), the most invasive and resulting in permanent harm to the patient, because the last option causes the death of the ebryo indirectly? As far as the embryo is concerned, the options are equivalent: it is dead. Therefore, one should focus one minimizing the harm done to the woman.

Plus, the whole reasoning strikes me as deeply faulty. The discussion of methotrexate clearly demonstrates the fallacy:
The first procedure involves a drug called methotrexate, which targets the most rapidly growing cells of the embryo, especially the placenta-like cells which attach the early embryo to the wall of the tube. Some have suggested that methotrexate might preferentially target these placenta-like cells, distinct from the rest of the embryo, so that it could be seen as “indirectly” ending the life of the embryo. Others, however, have noted that these placenta-like cells are in fact a part of the embryo itself (being produced by the embryo, not by the mother), so that the use of methotrexate actually targets a vital organ of the embryo, resulting in his or her death.
The reasoning here is that inhibiting growth of placenta-like cells is not permitted, because these cells are part of the embryo and such action is directed against the embryo. But, if one engineered a drug which interacts with the cells the embryo attaches to, inhibiting the placenta attachment, then such drug would not act on the embryo, and would be permitted under such logic.

However, from the point of view of the outside observer, both drugs are equivalent, as they both lead to death and discarding of the embryo. The difference is a technical detail, amounting to which particular chemical reaction in a long interlocking chain gets disrupted and which does not.

Another self-contradiction is present in the argument presented against the second method:
Another morally problematic technique involves cutting along the length of the fallopian tube where the child is embedded and “scooping out” the living body of the child, who dies shortly thereafter. The tube can then be sutured back up.
Here, the author himself admits that “scooping out” embryo does not cause the death of the embryo; instead, the embryo dies thereafter (because it cannot survive on its own). Thus, one can argue that the death of the embryo is an indirect effect, as the aim of the procedure is removal of the embryo, not killing the embryo. If an artificial uterus, capable of supporting the embryo existed, then the embryo could have been transfered there.

There is no practical difference between removing the embryo from the tube and removing the tube with the embryo, as in both cases this is the removal which has the curative effect.

The same paragraph contains another leap of logic:
If a large tumor, instead of a baby, were present in the tube, the same curative procedure would be employed.
This argument, again, rests on a technical detail of how a procedure is performed. In case of cancer, the goal is to remove the tumor. Although the standard procedure is to remove the tube together with the tumor, one can imagine a procedure where only a tumor is removed, and the tube itself is reconstructed and remains in place. This renders the argument invalid, demonstrating that author’s supposed absolute moral truth depends on what procedures are currently technically possible and what are not.
 
Let me get this straight. You have four options:
  • do nothing, which leads to death of the embryo
  • administer methotrexate, which leads to death of the embryo
  • remove the embryo, which leads to death of the embryo
  • remove the embryo AND the fallopian tube, which leads to death of the embryo
You are supposed to choose the last option, which is the most dangerous (short of doing nothing), the most invasive and resulting in permanent harm to the patient, because the last option causes the death of the ebryo indirectly?
Hi Kama,

Can you offer medical or scientific evidence that the 4th option is the most “dangerous” and “invasive”? Also, in what way is the permanent effect “harmful”? Have there been tests done that prove it increases the odds of death in the long-term?
 
There’s no opposition here. Something being a cop-out or not is completely tangential to where it comes from.
This site is Catholic Answers.
I spoke of a Catholic teaching.
I’m Catholic.
I support the teaching.

No surprises.
Your opinion re a cop-out is your opinion.
 
As for rape or incest, give the child a chance at life, he/she may find a cure for cancer or simply influnce another person to believe in the gospel, maybe. One can choose to be inconvinenced for nine months and give the child up to a loving home for adoption.
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Gotta be a guy, because I don’t think any woman would call pregancy a mere inconvenience.
As for the possbility that the baby may grow to find a cure for cancer, there is equally a possiblity that the baby may become a serial killer, mass murderer, or a Democrat. You just never know.
 
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