How do we respond to the "sex abuse scandal"?

[Benadam]

 

[Benadam]

Instead of cringeing, I think we should all just pray and be mindful of Chesterton’s answer when asked what’s wrong with the world - “I am”.

 

[portarica]

It was a homily not a thesis. The purpose of a sermon is to reflect on how the Gospel applies in our daily lives. Fr.C raised this as an issue for consideration.

Agreed. Except that the secular media misquoted him as if they were simply his own thoughts. For example, the BBC News headline was: “Outrage at anti-Semitism comparison by Pope preacher”. As others have noted, this was inaccurate and misleading reporting. Fr C has since apologized for any misunderstanding or offence that occurred. Have any of the secular media done the same?

Yes, the press, during the rise of the Third Reich, largely turned a blind eye to what they were doing. At the same time, the Nazis undertook a major propaganda campaign to increase the circulation of their 'news’papers through increasing the coverage given to scandals involving Jewish people. For example, they accused a Jewish-owned clothes company of failing to pay income taxes and investing money in Switzerland. This story dominated the Nazi press for several weeks. These scandals were hyped up by the Nazi press in order to increase prejudice against Jewish people, laying the groundwork for persecution. It is this parallell that seems to have struck Fr. C’s friend, when he wrote:

If we look at the last line, the thought is that the church is being hurt by stereo types of a perverted priesthood, but that is actually the opposite of what is happening.

Nobody is blaming the abuse on what Jesus taught.

People want the ones who covered up abuse and condoned the actions of perversion to be courageous and resign.

That is taking personal responsibility. Not hiding behind the veil of “the church will always prevail”.

Instead of saying that the church will prevail if those that tolerated perversion stay in power, they should be saying that the church will prevail if those that tolerated perversion resign.

And take it a step further,not only will the church prevail if those that tolerated and condoned abuse resign, but the church will be better and more people will be saved by the teachings of Jesus if that happens.

Those that tolerated and condoned abuse are being very selfish about the issue, and that is directly contrary to what Jesus taught about selfless service to our neighbors.

Peace

 

[eucharisteo]

benedictus2;6487323:

reminds me of a story. Hope you don’t mind indulging me.
I few years ago I went to Mass with my father. I hadn’t been to Mass at this Parish for many years and the liturgy had changed alot. It had not changed for the good at all. It was rife with abuses. After Mass I asked my father " How can you stand that?" He just said matter of factly, " if God can put up with me I can put up with His Church."

 

[eucharisteo]

benedictus2;6487092:

You’re right. I would be reluctant to throw the family garbage out in the street for all to see. I would take great pains to foster an environment of healing. Like the Bishops 50 years ago my judgement might have bent to the secular wind and I might have thought a little therapy would purge my son of that unnatural desire. But for the life of me if he pleaded to return to the field that gave that desire opportunity for satisfaction I would not believe he had repented. If he pleaded with me to never let him go near again to those he might endanger, to not let him be exposed to near occassions of this sin, I would rejoice for his contrite heart and for not having to force him to do what ought to be done.

A spin has to be put on the analogy, what was happening was a web of disorder that spun all the way up to the Shephards of souls. Pedophilia wasn’t the disorder that caused this scandal. Same sex attraction caused this scandal. That desire found rich soil to plant roots and had become a tall tree in the garden of our Priests. The gardener isn’t focused on weeding out candidates to the Priesthood who suffer with a disordered sexual desire for children. Same sex attraction is the gardeners target.

The analogy would require that the father be afflicted with the sickness of the son. Perhaps having more or less control over it. Nevertheless, the analogy would require that the sin of the son be clouding the judgement of the father. That the father be not just reluctant to go to the police but be fearfull that the spotlight on his son might cast his own disfigured shadow on the neighborhood street.

It got that bad.

What if it were discovered that the Latin rite bishops in fact were mostly or all affected by same sex attraction? I’ve heard a number of times that then there would be no priests to give us the sacraments. I bed otherwise. Then we would all become **Orthodox Christians **and deal with it there.

But what if there the abuse turns into infidelity with the opposite sex as opposed to same sex attraction. In some ways this is homophobic. But in other ways its justified anger because if they are abusing children, teens, then that really makes is more disgusting to most of us, whether valid or not. But scripture does mention this sex as the worst, so then maybe this is a justified anger towards bishops that allowed same sex attraction men to enter the seminaries for one reason or the other. I don’t know, just thinking out loud…

Maybe there is no real solution. Maybe this really speaks of men just being pigs, as some put it, or as I put it overly sexually inclined. I believe that it’s true that men have a difficult time with not being sexually active. But as time progresses we’re beginning to see that women are also growing in vast numbers with the same problem. It’s called sin. But when its with our children, its called sick, which really is the same thing.

 

[Roy5]

A story from childhood

 One wing of my paternal family had been Catholic up in Quebec, but some of them, including a grandmother, became a Baptist and moved to the USA over 100 years ago.

 When I was a teenager I became aware of some of the literature she had in her home. It was classic anti-Catholicism written by a man who claimed to be an ex-priest - and went by the name of Fr. Chiniquy. He lived 150 or so years ago as I recall.

 Anyway, one of the booklets she had was entitled "The Priest, the Woman and the Confessional" and once, in my teen years and when she was away, I read it quickly. In it Chiniquy claimed that all sorts of sexual sin went on among priests. They would even listen to the confessions of young women and then perhaps target them sexually. I believe there also were stories of priest-nun collusion, nuns bearing children sired by priests, and on and on. I forget most details all these years later. 

  I considered all that material outrageously false, the product of bitter anti-Catholicism, authored by an ex-priest (if he was one) who wanted to make money or perhaps had been banned from the priesthood. I never found out his precise story. (I believe he also published something that blamed Lincoln's assassination on a Catholic plot!)

  Today I still reject Chiniquy's writings as fiction, of course, but the current scandal does make me wonder if there was a grain of truth in any of his allegations.

  What should the church do? Bishops and others who knowingly covered over sexual sin among the clergy, and especially if they assigned priests to new parishes, should resign. Priests who (for certain) were predatory and exploited children or youth need to be turned over to the civil authorities to receive the same punishment that others in society would receive. Certainly no attempt should be made to silence the victims.

  I am deeply troubled by the suspicion that is being cast over all priests, up to and including the Pope. It's best, however, to confess the problem - a human problem everywhere - and then move on and get beyonf the present crisis. On reflection, most people will realize that it has been a problem, but that it has been justly resolved. 

   Is there anti-Catholicism in the media? I don't think that is a proper charge to level. There is, true, disdain for Catholicism among those who take issue with the church on such matters as birth control and 'one true church' assertion. Abortion, too, although among evangelical Protestants there seems to be about as high a percentage of pro-life people as among Catholics. Most loud anti-Catholicism today is among people like Hitchens rather than among those active in other faiths. They are against all religion, especially Christianity.

   I doubt if the Pope was involved in any way. The problem is that 'the buck stops here' even though he had been totally unacquainted with any sexual misconduct under his authority. 

   God bless clergy of all faiths serve God faithfully.

 

[Benadam]

Benadam;6487211:

What if it were discovered that the Latin rite bishops in fact were mostly or all affected by same sex attraction? I’ve heard a number of times that then there would be no priests to give us the sacraments. I bed otherwise. Then we would all become **Orthodox Christians **

and deal with it there.

But what if there the abuse turns into infidelity with the opposite sex as opposed to same sex attraction. In some ways this is homophobic. But in other ways its justified anger because if they are abusing children, teens, then that really makes is more disgusting to most of us, whether valid or not. But scripture does mention this sex as the worst, so then maybe this is a justified anger towards bishops that allowed same sex attraction men to enter the seminaries for one reason or the other. I don’t know, just thinking out loud…

Maybe there is no real solution. Maybe this really speaks of men just being pigs, as some put it, or as I put it overly sexually inclined. I believe that it’s true that men have a difficult time with not being sexually active. But as time progresses we’re beginning to see that women are also growing in vast numbers with the same problem. It’s called sin. But when its with our children, its called sick, which really is the same thing.
Imagine if the community that Priests were members of when they went home were all female. Then imagine that every time the Priest took his clothes off what he saw in the mirror was a naked female. Imagine how much more difficult it would be for him to fight his sexual urges among the women and girls that he ministers the Sacraments to. This is analagous to a Priest with same sex attraction.
A properly ordered sexual drive is buffered by long established and deeply entrenched reactions to improper responses to stimuli and social structures that prevent scandal. Courtship and archtypal bonds corral sexual desires that seek proper stimulus. Same sex attraction isn’t bound this way. There are few if any social structures that prevent temptation and if they do exist they lack the strength of enforced history. All that is required is discovery, consent and confidentiality. This makes the Confessional much more likely to present temptation for the Priest with same sex desires.

 

[twb1621]

The following is recorded with the Catholic Church

“…at the end of the 19th Century and especially in the 20th Century, Satan would reign almost completely by the means of the Masonic sect. …this battle would reach its most acute stage because of various unfaithful religious, who, “under the appearance of virtue and bad-spirited zeal, would turn upon Religion, who nourished them at her breast.”

“…the secular Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. This will mark the arrival of My hour.”

“Therefore, clamor insistently without tiring and weep with bitter tears in the privacy of your heart, imploring our Celestial Father that, for love of the Eucharistic Heart of my Most Holy Son and His Precious Blood shed with such generosity and the profound bitterness and sufferings of His cruel Passion and Death, He might take pity on His ministers and bring to an end those Ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate who will restore the spirit of its priests.”

Date: very early 17th c., first approved 1611 AD…… Our Lady of Good Success Source of Excerpts: fisheaters.com/apparitions.html

 

[michelearm]

I respond with this quote (I don’t remember where I read it though): “Don’t judge the church by the weakness of its members, judge it by the strength of its teachings.” Then I advise the critics to read the Catechism of the Church and see that the church’s teachings are pure and true.

 

[twb1621]

I respond with this quote (I don’t remember where I read it though): “Don’t judge the church by the weakness of its members, judge it by the strength of its teachings.” Then I advise the critics to read the Catechism of the Church and see that the church’s teachings are pure and true.

Truly… Amen

 

[theinquisitive]

:ballspin:

:ballspin:

:ballspin: ??? I am not familiar with that “smilie”
…
While we are told to “forgive”, this,the most gravest of sins,I ask myself if it is in our power to do so?? God alone decides. I pray for the sinner, but only that he be made responsible,for his doing,and NEVER be in the position to repeat it,if,he in his heart,is truely aware of his evil acts,accepts his rightful punishment,only then can I find it in me to be be so charitible…

On another point… If one knew that a member of one’s family was guilty of sexual abuse,would he/she be compelled to report it…:sad_yes::sad_yes: Of course,it would be a sin not to.
Not to mention a criminal offence (acessory after the fact)… I would be absolutely
infuriated if I found out that ANY ONE knew my child was being abused,and remained silent,I call that DISGUSTING!!!
Do you not read the Bible?
If a member of the community is guilty of such sin,we shuld not have “communion” with him/her… Cast them out of our midst…Christ Himself said:- “…it would be better for him to have a stone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea…”. Can one say it more clearly???
I can not understand that anyone could ask such a question,it is just not “Christian” to even think of remaining silent…
As Catholics (Christians) we are taught to protect the unborn,well does our responsibility stop at birth,as some accuse us of? Reading that “question” I wonder!!!
Pedophile’s are “sick”, Homosexuality is a “life style” What ever reasons these priest’s had for their actions,is not the issue,it is the “act” that we should take issue with…
So much writen on this subject,not enough DONE!!!
I wish you all a peaceful day/evening…

 

[Tybourne]

If we look at the last line, the thought is that the church is being hurt by stereo types of a perverted priesthood, but that is actually the opposite of what is happening.

There could be lots of different opposites to this state of affairs such as the Church benefiting from “stereotypes of a perverted priesthood”. Please would you outline out what *you *see as the opposite?

Nobody is blaming the abuse on what Jesus taught.

True, but history shows us that separating the Bridegroom from His Bride in this way leads, eventually, to rejecting the Bridegroom as well. So many protestant ‘reformers’ have started this way, with good motives, and ended up rending the body of Christ in clear contradiction of His desire in St John 17, that all may be one.

People want the ones who covered up abuse and condoned the actions of perversion to be courageous and resign.

That is taking personal responsibility. Not hiding behind the veil of “the church will always prevail”.

Instead of saying that the church will prevail if those that tolerated perversion stay in power, they should be saying that the church will prevail if those that tolerated perversion resign.

And take it a step further,not only will the church prevail if those that tolerated and condoned abuse resign, but the church will be better and more people will be saved by the teachings of Jesus if that happens.

Those that tolerated and condoned abuse are being very selfish about the issue, and that is directly contrary to what Jesus taught about selfless service to our neighbors.

But where does merely tolerating sin shade into condoning it and then into covering up? It is very difficult to discern the line in such sins of omission. As Solzhenitsyn noted, during his time in the Gulag:

it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil.

…. If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

So, I agree with Chesterton’s idea- the problem with the world, with the Church, is me. My part is to deepen my life of prayer and fasting in reparation for the sins of some (too many) clergy against God’s little ones. The time will come for reforming the priesthood, but only the priests themselves will be able to do that. The reform must be from within, it must not consist of another break.

Chesterton’s chapter ‘The Five Deaths of the Faith’ in *The Everlasting Man *also repays re-reading. His argument is, essentially, that the Church’s tendency to come close to collapse and then to revive is a sign that She is unified with the crucified and risen One:

At least five times, therefore, with the Arian and the Albigensian, with the Humanist sceptic, after Voltaire and after Darwin, the Faith has to all appearance gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died. How complete was the collapse and how strange the reversal, we can only see in detail in the case nearest to our own time *…

sooner or later even [the Church’s] enemies will learn from their incessant and interminable disappointments not to look for anything so simple as its death. They may continue to war with it, but it will be as they war with nature; as they war with the landscape, as they war with the skies. `Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.’ They will watch for it to stumble; they will watch for it to err; they will no longer watch for it to end. Insensibly, even unconsciously, they will in their own silent anticipations fulfil the relative terms of that astounding prophecy; they will forget to watch for the mere extinction of what has so often been vainly extinguished; and will learn instinctively to look first for the coming of the comet or the freezing of the star. *

 

[twb1621]

A story from childhood

One wing of my paternal family had been Catholic up in Quebec, but some of them, including a grandmother, became a Baptist and moved to the USA over 100 years ago.

When I was a teenager I became aware of some of the literature she had in her home. It was classic anti-Catholicism written by a man who claimed to be an ex-priest - and went by the name of Fr. Chiniquy. He lived 150 or so years ago as I recall.

Anyway, one of the booklets she had was entitled “The Priest, the Woman and the Confessional” and once, in my teen years and when she was away, I read it quickly. In it Chiniquy claimed that all sorts of sexual sin went on among priests. They would even listen to the confessions of young women and then perhaps target them sexually. I believe there also were stories of priest-nun collusion, nuns bearing children sired by priests, and on and on. I forget most details all these years later.

I considered all that material outrageously false, the product of bitter anti-Catholicism, authored by an ex-priest (if he was one) who wanted to make money or perhaps had been banned from the priesthood. I never found out his precise story. (I believe he also published something that blamed Lincoln’s assassination on a Catholic plot!)

Today I still reject Chiniquy’s writings as fiction, of course, but the current scandal does make me wonder if there was a grain of truth in any of his allegations.

What should the church do? Bishops and others who knowingly covered over sexual sin among the clergy, and especially if they assigned priests to new parishes, should resign. Priests who (for certain) were predatory and exploited children or youth need to be turned over to the civil authorities to receive the same punishment that others in society would receive. Certainly no attempt should be made to silence the victims.

I am deeply troubled by the suspicion that is being cast over all priests, up to and including the Pope. It’s best, however, to confess the problem - a human problem everywhere - and then move on and get beyonf the present crisis. On reflection, most people will realize that it has been a problem, but that it has been justly resolved.

Is there anti-Catholicism in the media? I don’t think that is a proper charge to level. There is, true, disdain for Catholicism among those who take issue with the church on such matters as birth control and ‘one true church’ assertion. Abortion, too, although among evangelical Protestants there seems to be about as high a percentage of pro-life people as among Catholics. Most loud anti-Catholicism today is among people like Hitchens rather than among those active in other faiths. They are against all religion, especially Christianity.

I doubt if the Pope was involved in any way. The problem is that ‘the buck stops here’ even though he had been totally unacquainted with any sexual misconduct under his authority.

God bless clergy of all faiths serve God faithfully.

For some accusations there will never be a “beyond”. The society we live in and societies past for that matter thrive on the shocking accusations and rumors of others against others long before they are determined righteous or frivolous if ever.

There are innumerable groups out there that can only show justification for their separation from the Catholic Faith by reveling over the corruption of some of her members. They do not realize there is only one Church of one mind and one teaching spoken of in scripture and it is that Church that suffers from the corrupt, also attested to in scripture. They do not see the paradox of their own beliefs. The High Priest of His Church, not those who judge against all for the corruption of the few, will purge His Church, no doubt… and His Church will be strengthened by His Justice in His supremacy. That is, if He is not so fed up with our society as a whole to go for the entire ball of wax.

 

[benedictus2]

i respond with this quote (i don’t remember where i read it though): “don’t judge the church by the weakness of its members, judge it by the strength of its teachings.” then i advise the critics to read the catechism of the church and see that the church’s teachings are pure and true.

vunderbar!!!

 

[benedictus2]

People want the ones who covered up abuse and condoned the actions of perversion to be courageous and resign.

That is taking personal responsibility. Not hiding behind the veil of “the church will always prevail”.

Instead of saying that the church will prevail if those that tolerated perversion stay in power, they should be saying that the church will prevail if those that tolerated perversion resign.

Not quite true. The Church will prevail even if those who tolerated the abuse do not resign because the Church is much, much bigger than the ones who tolerated the abuse.

Think back to all the ills that the Church have gone through. The Church will always be washed in Christ’s blood every time she gets soiled by sin. And that is true for every one of her members.

And take it a step further,not only will the church prevail if those that tolerated and condoned abuse resign, but the church will be better and more people will be saved by the teachings of Jesus if that happens.

Perhaps, but not necessarily so. Many protestants who have been most vehement in their attacks against the Church because of the abuses around about the time of the reformation have come home to the Church.

What we need to do is to emphasize the strength of the Church - her teaching.

Here is one of my favourite paragraphs in Peter Kreeft’s conversion story
***But if Catholic dogma contradicted Scripture or itself at any point, I could not believe it. I explored all the cases of claimed contradiction and found each to he a Protestant misunderstanding. No matter how morally bad the Church had gotten in the Renaissance, it never taught heresy. I was impressed with its very hypocrisy: even when it didn’t raise its practice to its preaching, it never lowered its preaching to its practice. Hypocrisy, someone said, is the tribute vice pays to virtue. ***

 

[eucharisteo]

I wonder how many bishops are reading this thread.

 

[benedictus2]

reminds me of a story. Hope you don’t mind indulging me.
I few years ago I went to Mass with my father. I hadn’t been to Mass at this Parish for many years and the liturgy had changed alot. It had not changed for the good at all. It was rife with abuses. After Mass I asked my father " How can you stand that?" He just said matter of factly, " if God can put up with me I can put up with His Church."

That is quite cute . I think another thing we need to be mindful of as well are Jesus’s words: “Whoever has no sin cast the first stone”.

Which brings me to a little email discussion I have been engaged in this morning.

A friend forwarded an email that a priest sent her. In the email the priest wrote : God died for us because we are good.

So I corrected that replying with Romans 5:6-8

One colleague even wrote that Christ died for the good, the bad and the in between???!!! If we are good then Christ did not die for us because then we have no need of a redeemer. That we all need redemption means we are all very far from good.

Some Catholics it seems feel that they are so good that somehow we are immune (in fact have never fallen) into the foibles of these priests. The plain and simple truth is we are all sinners. So let us pray for forgiveness for each and everyone in the church that the Holy Spirit may revivify her.

Sinfulness is clearly not the only crisis in the Church. Another is the rather bad theology that so called “post VII” people are banding about in an attempt to be inclusive and happy clappy.

 

[Doc_Keele]

benedictus2;6487323:

reminds me of a story. Hope you don’t mind indulging me.
I few years ago I went to Mass with my father. I hadn’t been to Mass at this Parish for many years and the liturgy had changed alot. It had not changed for the good at all. It was rife with abuses. After Mass I asked my father " How can you stand that?" He just said matter of factly, " if God can put up with me I can put up with His Church."

I love this:thumbsup:

 

[Cinette]

That is quite cute . I think another thing we need to be mindful of as well are Jesus’s words: “Whoever has no sin cast the first stone”.

Which brings me to a little email discussion I have been engaged in this morning.

A friend forwarded an email that a priest sent her. In the email the priest wrote : God died for us because we are good.

So I corrected that replying with Romans 5:6-8

One colleague even wrote that Christ died for the good, the bad and the in between???!!! If we are good then Christ did not die for us because then we have no need of a redeemer. That we all need redemption means we are all very far from good.

Some Catholics it seems feel that they are so good that somehow we are immune (in fact have never fallen) into the foibles of these priests. The plain and simple truth is we are all sinners. So let us pray for forgiveness for each and everyone in the church that the Holy Spirit may revivify her.

Sinfulness is clearly not the only crisis in the Church. Another is the rather bad theology that so called “post VII” people are banding about in an attempt to be inclusive and happy clappy.

I have said this before and I will say it again.

There was a time when Doctors thought they could give us an injection and some pills and send us on our way. Nowadays we are all better informed - thru the Internet and other media - so they have to give us an exhaustive explanation. They have to be careful because we answer back and have opinions etc.

Similarly with the Priests. If they say anything that is not theologically correct we point it out to them. We are a lot smarter, informed and bolder.

Here is something good old Fr Harry said during the Stations of the Cross (said the same last year and I didn’t challenge him - he is 80) that some people who were crucified (the younger ones) would stay alive on the cross for 2 or 3 weeks! LOL!!! Well for that to happen they would have to be given food and water and possibly a blood transfusion!! LOL! This is a harmless statement but still… Most of the time Fr Harry has many words of wisdom and is beloved by the parishioners.

Also the devil is everywhere - even in the pews. Although I cannot understand how a man can go to seminary, spend years studying and living a life of sacrifice and yet fall prone to heresay. One thing is for sure we are a lot smarter. This is the age of the Laity - the Laity performs a much more important and prominent role in the Church today.

God bless you all
Cinette

 

[Ma.Eugenia]

This is an interesting thread…I sent emails to my family to read it too.

The Church is filled with men and women who work hard to faithfully and lovingly serve their community because they love God …yet it is the very, very few (much fewer than other religious organizations) “bad eggs” who do not do what the Church teaches, that gets all the focus by media.

I pray for our beloved Pope Benedict XVI that he will be able to weather this “storm”.

I believe that God will never abandon his bride, the Church.

God promised His people: “I am with you always, until the end of the world” (Mt. 28:20)