How do we respond to the "sex abuse scandal"?

[benedictus2]

Also the devil is everywhere - even in the pews.

Most definitely in the pews. The devil is a very good tactician. Peter Kreeft said that he operates by dimming the lights. Not outright turning them off, but dimming it every so slightly so the ordinary person is not even aware that it has somehow gotten darker in here.

Although I cannot understand how a man can go to seminary, spend years studying and living a life of sacrifice and yet fall prone to heresay.

It all boils down to the age old temptation of the devil - a temptation to self-deification which is very alluring.

 

[portarica]

There could be lots of different opposites to this state of affairs such as the Church benefiting from “stereotypes of a perverted priesthood”. Please would you outline out what *you *see as the opposite?

True, but history shows us that separating the Bridegroom from His Bride in this way leads, eventually, to rejecting the Bridegroom as well. So many protestant ‘reformers’ have started this way, with good motives, and ended up rending the body of Christ in clear contradiction of His desire in St John 17, that all may be one.

But where does merely tolerating sin shade into condoning it and then into covering up? It is very difficult to discern the line in such sins of omission. As Solzhenitsyn noted, during his time in the Gulag:

So, I agree with Chesterton’s idea- the problem with the world, with the Church, is me. My part is to deepen my life of prayer and fasting in reparation for the sins of some (too many) clergy against God’s little ones. The time will come for reforming the priesthood, but only the priests themselves will be able to do that. The reform must be from within, it must not consist of another break.

Chesterton’s chapter ‘The Five Deaths of the Faith’ in *The Everlasting Man *also repays re-reading. His argument is, essentially, that the Church’s tendency to come close to collapse and then to revive is a sign that She is unified with the crucified and risen One:

So you don’t believe that the church is strong enough to survive if all those that condoned abuse or engaged in subterfuge resigned?

That makes our church pretty pathetic and weak. We tolerate the abuse of the congregation for what reasons?

Jesus resurrected from the dead, but first he was killed for bringing a message that was about helping the least.

Hypothetically speaking, If a comet hit the Vatican and every bishop in the world perished, the word of God would survive. Fifty years from now, none of the present cardinals are likely to be alive, will the church die in the meantime?

Why do we fear cleaning up the mess? Why do we tolerate behavior that is so blatantly contrary to what Jesus taught?

I guess it is because we have no courage either.

Peace

 

[Cinette]

The Church has fought so many battles these past 2000 years - heresay has always been there - one after another. The Church has fought off invaders and all kinds of threats. The Holy Spirit has always been there to protect the Church.

The best way for us to fight back is to be well armed. We need to know our faith thoroughly - so much so that we will be able to discern and identify all those subtle new age stuff that quietly invade…

This battle is forever my friends. We must have to be vigilent and ready.

God bless you all
Cinette

 

[eucharisteo]

The old and new testament include accounts of sexual immorality. It talks about homosexual acts enough to know that this goes back to the beginning of time. Remember Lot [Sodom and Gomorrah - I forget that Catholics may not always know their scripture very well. ]?

 

[Moro_Rock]

And why was there so much faith in secular psychologists and psychiatrists when they claimed that they could ‘cure’ paedophile priests ?

 

[tweetymom]

And why was there so much faith in secular psychologists and psychiatrists when they claimed that they could ‘cure’ paedophile priests ?

Does seem strange. Sometimes we believe what we want to, cause it is easier than facing the truth.

 

[eucharisteo]

And why was there so much faith in secular psychologists and psychiatrists when they claimed that they could ‘cure’ paedophile priests ?

Too much emphasis on cognitive, as Latin Rite Christians are known for. This is exactly why I left the Church believing it sold its soul to the Devil. Thank God I found priests and laity that stand up against this. How could anyone place more emphasis on a pseudo science over the salvation of another anyway?

 

[portarica]

The Church has fought so many battles these past 2000 years - heresay has always been there - one after another. The Church has fought off invaders and all kinds of threats. The Holy Spirit has always been there to protect the Church.

The best way for us to fight back is to be well armed. We need to know our faith thoroughly - so much so that we will be able to discern and identify all those subtle new age stuff that quietly invade…

This battle is forever my friends. We must have to be vigilent and ready.

God bless you all
Cinette

It seems that the ones that disregard what Jesus taught about taking care of the flock are being portrayed as on the side of Jesus and those that feel that they should speak up about abuse and are trying to get all catholics to act more closely in concordance with what Jesus taught are being maligned.

Why is that?

Since those that have abused or condoned abuse have not suggested a theological authority for those actions, why is their unChrist like behavior tolerated by Catholics who profess belief in what Jesus taught?

Do we trust more in the present temporal form of the church than in the words of Jesus?

If all those that condoned abuse or engaged in subterfuge suddenly found themselves working in hospices, providing palliative care to the dying,would the church end?

Would that scenario make anyone leave the church and jettison the teachings of Jesus?

(Other than those in new found positions emptying bedpans?)

Peace

 

[twb1621]

So you don’t believe that the church is strong enough to survive if all those that condoned abuse or engaged in subterfuge resigned?

That makes our church pretty pathetic and weak. We tolerate the abuse of the congregation for what reasons?

Jesus resurrected from the dead, but first he was killed for bringing a message that was about helping the least.

Hypothetically speaking, If a comet hit the Vatican and every bishop in the world perished, the word of God would survive. Fifty years from now, none of the present cardinals are likely to be alive, will the church die in the meantime?

Why do we fear cleaning up the mess? Why do we tolerate behavior that is so blatantly contrary to what Jesus taught?

I guess it is because we have no courage either.

Peace

Whatever mess there is, it will be cleaned. Jesus has the authority of the Father to reconcile all things in Heaven and on earth to Himself. He alone is the High Priest as we know. There is either the feeling of betrayal and embarrassment we as the faithful can contend with (self centered but human) or the heart ache for the victims but the undoubting trust through faith that Jesus will most certainly reconcile with those who penetrate His Church with corruption. He will renew and strengthen her and the faithful will stand strong against those who defile from within as well as those who judge from outside.

I believe this is who we are or are to be.

 

[twb1621]

And why was there so much faith in secular psychologists and psychiatrists when they claimed that they could ‘cure’ paedophile priests ?

Fear and desperation… a panicked response hoping to avoid shame and outsider’s awareness while seeking a quick fix. Treatment and therapy by psychiatric professionals is held in strict confidentiality so it could not be released by the doctors to the public. It was the growth of this evil that caught up to them and overcame them as it appears. The more victims that came forth, the more they lost control. Then what little was first hidden could no longer be suppressed and their own mishandling added to cancer.

 

[Tybourne]

So you don’t believe that the church is strong enough to survive if all those that condoned abuse or engaged in subterfuge resigned?

I certainly think so. But who would make that call? It would be up to each individual bishop. Would sending a priest for ‘therapy’ and then reassigning them count as condoning abuse or subterfuge? It wasn’t seen that way at the time. This also leaves the the OP unanswered. How should **we **respond (not the bishops)?

We tolerate the abuse of the congregation for what reasons?

We shouldn’t tolerate it at all. I don’t think anyone’s suggesting we should. I’m certainly not.

Fifty years from now, none of the present cardinals are likely to be alive, will the church die in the meantime?

If the cardinals were all rounded up and gassed the Church would certainly survive, as it did in England when the hierarchy was dismantled and proscribed. However, these were very hard times for the faith. It’s not something we should ever wish on ourselves. If God permits it, that is another matter.

Why do we fear cleaning up the mess? Why do we tolerate behavior that is so blatantly contrary to what Jesus taught?

I think we certainly lack courage. Catholics in the West are too comfortable. We are used to satiating ourselves and to spiritual passivity. Acedia is widespread. We may benefit in the long run from this trial. But we can still legitimately pray and hope to be spared a time of trial, not at the expense of the victims. I don’t think anyone is tolerating the abuse.

 

[Benadam]

What if it were discovered that the Latin rite bishops in fact were mostly or all affected by same sex attraction? I’ve heard a number of times that then there would be no priests to give us the sacraments. I bed otherwise. Then we would all become **Orthodox Christians **and deal with it there.

But what if there the abuse turns into infidelity with the opposite sex as opposed to same sex attraction. In some ways this is homophobic. But in other ways its justified anger because if they are abusing children, teens, then that really makes is more disgusting to most of us, whether valid or not. But scripture does mention this sex as the worst, so then maybe this is a justified anger towards bishops that allowed same sex attraction men to enter the seminaries for one reason or the other. I don’t know, just thinking out loud…

Maybe there is no real solution. Maybe this really speaks of men just being pigs, as some put it, or as I put it overly sexually inclined. I believe that it’s true that men have a difficult time with not being sexually active. But as time progresses we’re beginning to see that women are also growing in vast numbers with the same problem. It’s called sin. But when its with our children, its called sick, which really is the same thing.

I reread this post eucharisteo after reading your insight into the limits of psychology and the Church’s faith in it. The era when the researchers like Jung reduced the Holy Spirit to a psycholgical phenomenon. I’m reminded of an OT prophet lamenting " they are obsessed with the cause of their sins". I think we’re beginning to recover.

If all the Priests were possibly scandalized by the presence of my sons… …I think I would still recieve the Sacraments from them and my children too. What would be different would be the safety measures I would require to insure their safety.

I’m already familiar with the problem of a wife wishing her husband was more like her Priest. I know if the Priest is tempted to take advantage of that I won’t have to worry about my children.
Same sex attraction in males inherently leads to the acceptance of younger and younger sexual partners. There is even open promotion of sex with children in some groups like NAMBLA. (North American Man/Boy Love Association):knight2:

 

[eucharisteo]

I reread this post eucharisteo after reading your insight into the limits of psychology and the Church’s faith in it. The era when the researchers like Jung reduced the Holy Spirit to a psycholgical phenomenon. I’m reminded of an OT prophet lamenting " they are obsessed with the cause of their sins". I think we’re beginning to recover.

If all the Priests were possibly scandalized by the presence of my sons… …I think I would still recieve the Sacraments from them and my children too. What would be different would be the safety measures I would require to insure their safety.

I’m already familiar with the problem of a wife wishing her husband was more like her Priest. I know if the Priest is tempted to take advantage of that I won’t have to worry about my children.
Same sex attraction in males inherently leads to the acceptance of younger and younger sexual partners. There is even open promotion of sex with children in some groups like NAMBLA. (North American Man/Boy Love Association):knight2:

My gut reaction was to ask if you’re a member just to be funny. But my wife has a tight relationship with our pastor, and if I could be more like him I’d be Christ.

 

[portarica]

Whatever mess there is, it will be cleaned. Jesus has the authority of the Father to reconcile all things in Heaven and on earth to Himself. He alone is the High Priest as we know. There is either the feeling of betrayal and embarrassment we as the faithful can contend with (self centered but human) or the heart ache for the victims but the undoubting trust through faith that Jesus will most certainly reconcile with those who penetrate His Church with corruption. He will renew and strengthen her and the faithful will stand strong against those who defile from within as well as those who judge from outside.

I believe this is who we are or are to be.

In this particular issue, God’s delays are God’s denials. It is very convenient for us as catholics to wait and wait and wait for God to do something.

It reminds me of the joke about the guy who prays to win the lottery, after a number of years his prayer becomes angry and he asks God why he hasn’t won? And God responds by asking the guy to help out a little and buy a lottery ticket.

Any body that has prayed about this issue knows that it is wrong. Anyone who has even a peripheral family connection to the abuse and cover up knows that the church has acted
in a very unChristlike manner.

So does God want us to take action or just wait and wait and wait? The church has commented on abuse since the middle ages, yet they still do not act in the best interests of the lambs of God or their mothers and fathers.

So do we continue to wait while the most learned men on the subject of Jesus try to figure out if they should be honest with the people they were entrusted by Jesus to shepherd?

Peace

 

[Cinette]

The old and new testament include accounts of sexual immorality. It talks about homosexual acts enough to know that this goes back to the beginning of time. Remember Lot [Sodom and Gomorrah - I forget that Catholics may not always know their scripture very well. ]?

LOL! That is because they don’t pay attention to the scriptures which are read out at Mass.

 

[KitSileya]

I’ve read this thread with interest. I don’t have a lot to contribute either way, save on one point that has mentioned several times. That is the claim that only a very few of priests have committed these vile acts, and also that only a few bishops have colluded in covering them up. Today, news broke that my former parish priest, then subsequently bishop of my old diocese was sacked last summer not because of trouble cooperating within the diocese, but in fact because he molested a 14-year old altar boy 20 years ago, and when confronted with it, admitted it. Now there are rumors that he also abused a child younger than 10 years. It has been on the news a lot today, and the current bishop has had to admit that there are other cases as well. Because of this, I think that we do not know the full extent of the number of priests that have done these horrible things. I fear that the number can be higher than anything we might think. Defending ourselves by stating that so few priests have done it, claiming that fewer priests than parents and teachers abuse childre, might come back and haunt us as the scandals come to light one by one.

Oh, and another thing - I also see people defending JPII here. While I do not know whether the late Holy Father knew that Bishop Müller had commited those exact crimes, there is no doubt that those who worked with the bishop -priests and laity, and his superiors, insistently warned against ordaining Georg Müller as bishop. JPII went against all this advice, and did it anyway. So I must say that my faith in the late Holy Father has gotten a blow.

 

[twb1621]

…

In this particular issue, God’s delays are God’s denials. It is very convenient for us as catholics to wait and wait and wait for God to do something.

You misunderstood my point. In a previous post I thought I was clear that we as the faithful must make sure in matters such as this we make our voices heard, meaning our disdain for such matters and insistence for correction where necessary. BUT, there is a great deal of information regarding these cases that we do not have the access to and the information we receive through media is not reliable to make judgment on in itself. I do not and have not suggested we are to sit quietly and leave it all to God. On the contrary, we (the faithful) are responsible to respond. My point was to have faith and trust that it will be attended to by Him and under no circumstances should anyone fear that Jesus would turn His back on His bride regardless of how or what corruption arises. This is His Church and He has made it clear in His covenant with her that His Church will not fail and woe to those who corrupt her.

It reminds me of the joke about the guy who prays to win the lottery, after a number of years his prayer becomes angry and he asks God why he hasn’t won? And God responds by asking the guy to help out a little and buy a lottery ticket.

Yup, I kinda got a kick out of that one myself…

Any body that has prayed about this issue knows that it is wrong. Anyone who has even a peripheral family connection to the abuse and cover up knows that the church has acted
in a very unChristlike manner.

Absolutely, But just what is “it”? What has been accurately portrayed, what facts have we really been presented with and how much has been embellished upon? After 25 years in law enforcement as a professional investigator and researcher I have seen more than enough tweaking and embellishment on the part of SOME media and SOME lawyers to consider either as presenting reliable information at this point. Both stand to gain from this sensationalism, and that is before any benefit can come to the victims.

You speak in extremely general pretences… Who are you referring to specifically and what is it you believe they are not telling… The Vatican, the U. S. bishops, both? You seem to have made your judgment already and will not be satisfied until your conclusions are verified through the confession of the Vatican. Insisting on a response with facts is one thing but demanding a confession based on conclusions one reaches based on commercialized media is another.

 

[Benadam]

My gut reaction was to ask if you’re a member just to be funny. But my wife has a tight relationship with our pastor, and if I could be more like him I’d be Christ.

Ha! I suddenly feel like someone who has just been told that a bugger is hanging out of their nose.:bigyikes:uch:

 

[fms]

Computer mistranslation of key Vatican memo undercuts media criticism of Pope

Smearing the Pope

Abuse docs provided to NY Times by lawyer trying to sue the Vatican

Benedict XVI’s long battle against sex abuse in the Church

Laurie Goodstein does not look comfortable. Looks worried

Laurie Goodstein recant?

 

[portarica]

You misunderstood my point. In a previous post I thought I was clear that we as the faithful must make sure in matters such as this we make our voices heard, meaning our disdain for such matters and insistence for correction where necessary. BUT, there is a great deal of information regarding these cases that we do not have the access to and the information we receive through media is not reliable to make judgment on in itself. I do not and have not suggested we are to sit quietly and leave it all to God. On the contrary, we (the faithful) are responsible to respond. My point was to have faith and trust that it will be attended to by Him and under no circumstances should anyone fear that Jesus would turn His back on His bride regardless of how or what corruption arises. This is His Church and He has made it clear in His covenant with her that His Church will not fail and woe to those who corrupt her.

Yup, I kinda got a kick out of that one myself…

Absolutely, But just what is “it”? What has been accurately portrayed, what facts have we really been presented with and how much has been embellished upon? After 25 years in law enforcement as a professional investigator and researcher I have seen more than enough tweaking and embellishment on the part of SOME media and SOME lawyers to consider either as presenting reliable information at this point. Both stand to gain from this sensationalism, and that is before any benefit can come to the victims.

You speak in extremely general pretences… Who are you referring to specifically and what is it you believe they are not telling… The Vatican, the U. S. bishops, both? You seem to have made your judgment already and will not be satisfied until your conclusions are verified through the confession of the Vatican. Insisting on a response with facts is one thing but demanding a confession based on conclusions one reaches based on commercialized media is another.

First I can surmise from your posts that you do not have first hand experience with the operations of the church regarding abuse.

You say that I only have knowledge of the issue from commercial sources. You are mistaken on a number of points there. First, myriad church documents are available online that show a side of the issue that do not appear in the public relations releases of either Rome or the Dioceses in the US. Many of these have been obtained through court ordered
disclosures in abuse cases.

Other church documents regarding the issue can be found in the official church publications coming from Rome. The recent protestations of a lack of knowledge about the issue coming out of the church are directly contrary to information that is available and in some cases has been available for decades in regard to the cases of abuse coming to light now. The church has been also dealing with clerical abuse since the time of some of the early councils.

Secondly, I have first hand experience of dealing within the church system regarding the issue. I have witnessed the toll the church’s subterfuge took on my mother. She did not die in peace with the church she so devoutly trusted with her faith and her children.

I have not made any idle claims or tried to paint any person or the church in terms of being beyond redemption. Point out any post where my argument contains any info that can’t be substantiated.

I just don’t think our church leadership has any business acting in a fashion that is so blatantly unChristlike in word or example.

The whole clerical abuse issue could have been avoided if it was acted upon in an honest and forthright manner. We are not talking rocket science here. Don’t hurt kids and don’t do anything that leads to more kids being hurt. That covers the actions of the abusers and the actions of the church’s leaders. Any Pope could have made that the policy of the church, but none have, go figure.

A twelve year old kid could figure that out, and did at one time, perhaps we should listen to Him more closely.

Imagine how much better our church would be right now if people across the world could look at our church as a beacon of the goodness of Jesus , instead of the perception it is giving the world right now. It is sad. But alas it will prevail, so who cares if it is better , that’s not important.

Peace