How do we respond to the "sex abuse scandal"?

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No, we shouldn’t, of course. Fair comment- I agree that saying “it happens elsewhere” is a false consolation and seems like a cheap defence to those outside the Church.

,at the moment, this thread reads a bit like a competition to see who can get most worked up about the abuse scandal. The OP asks what we can do, not what the bishops or the Pope can do. I’ve seen few posts about what the *lay faithful * (which seems to describe most of the people posting here) can do.

I would invoke the notion of reparation here. Mary was without sin. So, why did she did she offer two birds? It was to show obedience to the Law before it was completed by Jesus.
We could even start a special lay association to do this, calling it something like the Confraternity of the Sacred Heart.

Anyone interested?​

“… at the moment, this thread reads a bit like a competition to see who can get most worked up about the abuse scandal”<<<

" The OP asks what we can do, not what the bishops or the Pope can do. I’ve seen few posts about what the *lay faithful * (which seems to describe most of the people posting here) can do."<<

Exactly,what we are doing… “geting worked up about the abuse scandal”
Further more,not remaining silent,instead expressing our horror,disgust,and feeling of betrayal.most of all our solidarity with the abused,by doing this,we signal to the Catholic and non-Catholic world,that those people are not,the CHURCH we follow,nor that we in any way identify ourselves with them,nor do we intend suporting them,nor their helper’s helper.
One aspect of “reparation” would be,to ask/demand,that all those implicated,(abuser , those Bishops,Cardinals,and even the Pope who at some level had knowledge,of the extent of the abuse, encouraged them by knowingly allowing them to continue their abuse elsewhere) made a pilgrimage to every Parish,school,Abby, which they oversaw, where abuse took place,beging forgivness for their actions/in-actions.
In earlier times,they would be asked to do this bare foot,dressed in sack-cloth carrying a candle,even Kings were subject to this Penance,for I may stress,much minor crimes against the C.Church…
That would be at least,an outward sign of contrition,acceptence of their part,in not only bringing disgrace upon the Church they vowed to protect,defend and honor,but most of all the hurt,heartbreak,and pain inflicted upon the abused,and their families.
Letters,Statements,read out at Mass I’m afraid,is not being seen as adequate response.
Yes,Prayer,is sorely needed,by all.
As far as raising money,well we ARE (as you so rightly state) allready paying for compensation,in the MILLIONS,to victims,their families,their lawyers,to the extent that many Parish’s are selling their property and closing shop to pay for it…
The congregation’s are asked to give additional donations to save their Parish from such fate.
Money is NOT the issue,although a very tough burden to bare,Guilt of this magnitude,
can not be bought off.
What can the layity do you ask…Answer, continue to “get worked up”,not to let the matter rest untill each and every person involved,has stood up,apologized PERSONALLY, to each and every victim (collective apologies are not being acepted as we can see),but most of all,to Christ who they have insulted through their actions/in-actions.
The Church will come through this,but I’m afraid not unscathed,unless action is seen to be taken.
NO MORE SECRETS!!! EXPOSE THE COVER-UPS!!! let JUSTICE be done!!!
It is our duty as Christians,to demand this of our Church leader!!!​

“So, why did she (Mary) offer two birds? It was to show obedience to the Law before it was completed by Jesus”<< .

Yes the LAW (which is now laid out to us all), those who do/did not show obedience,are those who commited the abuse,and those who aided them.
I have yet to see THEIR “birds”…
If this sounds a little harsh to some,well let us keep the horror and pain of the victims in mind,while we vent our concerns about the over zealous media coverage,the worked up emotions of some who comment on this forum…
Ask ourselves,what if it was my child?.Would soothing words of sorrow lessen my indignation,my pain,horror??
That is for each of us individually to decide.

As to your question “anyone interested”
Yes I am,allthough I would be more inclined to name it;-
“Christians united in protecting the rule of Christ within the(His)Catholic Church” <<
 

**** continuation of my previous comment****
One more quite interesting point,when the High Priests “tried” Christ,they were, after finding Him guilty, OBLIGED BY LAW,to hand him over to the civil authorities of the time… The Romans,equivelent I expect to our modern day justice system…
(The guilt of those involved in the reported abuse’s was established very early on)…
Just a thought!!!
“give to Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s” - obey the law of the Land -
And NO! I have not forgoten the rest of that quote;- “give to God that which is God’s”
in other words;- obedience to HIS commandment… This the culprits evidently did not
heed…​

THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT (from:-The Catechism of the Catholic Church)
2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or ** those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them. **<<

I must asume that the persons involved (direct and in-directly)in abuse were aware of this?hardly likely to be misread?
 
The church is not a scapegoat.

Scapegoat:One that is made to bear the blame of others.

The church is not being blamed for the abuse of teachers or scout leaders or protestant ministers.

Calling the church a scapegoat , ironically is a way of making others a scapegoat for the church. Calling the church a scapegoat has only the purpose of deflecting the blame away from the church.

Peace
Well put,well writen to the point. (not as looooooong as mine 😊)
I’m of the same mind.👍
 
No, we shouldn’t, of course. Fair comment- I agree that saying “it happens elsewhere” is a false consolation and seems like a cheap defence to those outside the Church.

At the same time, at the moment, this thread reads a bit like a competition to see who can get most worked up about the abuse scandal. The OP asks what we can do, not what the bishops or the Pope can do. I’ve seen few posts about what the *lay faithful * (which seems to describe most of the people posting here) can do.

It’s not a problem of secrecy. The Church has always operated with a veil of secrecy, ever since the time Our Lord told people to ‘tell no-one’ after he had healed them (the Messianic secret). Did the Church tell everyone about St Peter’s betrayal of Jesus or St Paul’s persecution of Christians? It *is *a problem of unchastity and it *is *a problem of power, of clericalism.

I would invoke the notion of reparation here. Remember that St Joseph and our Blessed Mother offered the sacrifice of two birds according to the Torah (Leviticus 12) when they went to present Jesus for his circumcision. One of these birds was a sin offering. Yet, as we know, Mary was without sin. So, why did she did she offer two birds? It was to show obedience to the Law before it was completed by Jesus. It was also in reparation, part of her spiritual offering that continues to this day, in union with the merits of Jesus’s Passover (His Passion, Death and Resurrection). So, what would reparation look like in the case of abuse? First, imagine what we would like the abusive priests to do (e.g. express sorrow/remorse, take on additional penances for their sins, do something to help the victims- what? Pray for the victims. Raise money for charities offering counselling and therapy to the victims of sexual abuse). *Then, we do those things ourselves, even though we are not the ones who have committed the sins. *We could even start a special lay association to do this, calling it something like the Confraternity of the Sacred Heart. Devotion to the Sacred Heart was traditionally linked to the idea of reparation.

Anyone interested?
:(NO one is above the law no one Put their sweet buns in Jail like all sex offenders are put and leave them there, it is not curable, not! Keep them out of public and away from woman and chuildren. Plain and simple!
 
:(NO one is above the law no one Put their sweet buns in Jail like all sex offenders are put and leave them there, it is not curable, not! Keep them out of public and away from woman and chuildren. Plain and simple!
I’m in favour of offending clergy being sent to jail. It would be hard not to be. But this alone won’t solve the problem. It’s a spiritua malaise that needs a spiritual remedy.
 
Dear Tybourne
you write;-
“It’s a spiritual malaise that needs a spiritual remedy”<<
I beg to differ.
Paedophilia,is NOT a spiritual malady.Further more there is,to this day, NO remedy/cure.
Pedophilia (or paedophilia) is a psychological disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children…
A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is commonly assumed to be and referred to as a pedophile; however, there may be other motivations for the crime(such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner).
The lack of spirituality or “spirtual malady” does not apear in any studies concerning child abuse nor paedophilia.
And once more,not ALL child molesters are (in the true medical sense) paedophiles.
Some are just,depraved,others resort to child abuse because they are desperate for sexual release,the youth of the victim presents minimal resistance to the perpertrator,especially when he/she is a person of authority
When all is said,over and over again,it remains a criminal offense…
 
I’m in favour of offending clergy being sent to jail. It would be hard not to be. But this alone won’t solve the problem. It’s a spiritua malaise that needs a spiritual remedy.
Amen to that:mad:
 
Dear Tybourne
you write;-
“It’s a spiritual malaise that needs a spiritual remedy”<<
I beg to differ.
Paedophilia,is NOT a spiritual malady.Further more there is,to this day, NO remedy/cure.
Pedophilia (or paedophilia) is a psychological disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children…
A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is commonly assumed to be and referred to as a pedophile; however, there may be other motivations for the crime(such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner).
The lack of spirituality or “spirtual malady” does not apear in any studies concerning child abuse nor paedophilia.
And once more,not ALL child molesters are (in the true medical sense) paedophiles.
Some are just,depraved,others resort to child abuse because they are desperate for sexual release,the youth of the victim presents minimal resistance to the perpertrator,especially when he/she is a person of authority
When all is said,over and over again,it remains a criminal offense…
Well, when the likes of Bill Donohue start calling it a problem of homosexuality (as the magical age of 13 seems to be defense to remove the term paedophilia) you see where this is going.
He ought to call it **statutory rapist problems **then. But, of course he will not. Because we all know that a 13 year old is able to consent to Father’s overtures. :mad:
Take a look at what the arch of Cincinatti is doing now- or trying to do. The first objector was not some ped group, but the Holy Catholic Church!
 
Although I understand and agree with many of the views here, we seem to be short circuiting Christianity with law.

My point in this post is to extend the considerations of some, not all, in this thread.

If the Catholic Church is blanketly legally responsible to turn over such allegations to police as they receive them, how long do you think it will be before the Catholic Church is also held responsible to turn over everyone who repents a crime in the confessional? Receiving an allegation is not the same as being handed a solid case to prosecute. It is the first step to start an investigation. With certain allegations a person’s reputation is destroyed when it becomes public knowledge and long before proven or disproven. If disproven, society does not forget. Why on earth would you throw everyone to the dogs for the sake of those who deserve criminal charges.

Should they be prosecuted…. Yes… If the victim is willing to do so. Should they be terminated from the Church… absolutely if the Church has the grounds to show it justifiable.

Now, I must have missed it but someone tell me when Jesus ever turned a repentant criminal over to the authorities? After He wrote on the ground in the dust, did He forgive the woman of her sins and say, but now you have to be turned over to the law and be stoned to death… What person of repentance did He refuse to forgive and what person that He forgave did He turn over to the law or even suggest be turned over to the law.

I am not in favor of a person victimizing another and walking away without answering for the offense. But we must remember that the teachings of Christianity and civil prosecution are two separate entities.

Just what social group do we think these men came from? Abortion is murder and is against the declaration of independence where God as our Creator is fully recognized. We no longer follow the morality of our forefathers. Is not sodomy a sin and a crime in most if not all states and yet have we not begun to legally recognize gay marriages on an ever growing scale?

Does not scripture tell us that in acknowledging acceptance of same sex relationships those who accept it are as guilty as those who partake in them?

Who voted for our present president after he made it very clear while running for office that he was going to do everything in his power to remove all obsticles of abortion which he began doing within the first 48 hours of his taking office. Most of these “priests” who have committed these crimes are of our sexual revolution. The flower of separation from God and morality for the sake of pleasure and convenience.
One body and one soul equals one person. We can not seperate our soul to claim to be Christian while maintaining the idea our human form can support immorality for the sake of “political correctness” or convenience or liberalism. Its not like our Christian soul will go to heaven and our human body will go to eternal damnation for the social sins we condone in one way or the other.

So do we stand as involved Catholics and demand reparation as someone else mentioned, or do we stone the woman for her crimes after Jesus forgives? Selective enforcement is illegal in itself. It is prejudicial to enforce one crime but not another. If we are to turn our Church over to government for some things we are turning our Church over for all things. Know all that is involved before deciding on how you believe things are to be handled and only then demand they be handled appropriately.
 
Dear Tom,

Berry Best to you!

I’m sorry, but your bold font type and length of post makes it very hard to object to the numerous items in it you have put so much time and care into.

I would like to address a few of your statements at a time, so that the reader can actually get an idea of your arguments and my responses to them without wasting too much bandwith in doing so.

Tom, what would be the best summary of your position in say, a sentence? Then we could go from there if you don’t mind the hassle. I just can’t reply to such a lenghty post without getting timed out in a reply. Can we break this up a bit, into managable parts?
 
All Catholics want justice served in any scandal including the sex scandal. Justice is served when the truth is known and those who know it speak up appropriately. The authorities in the Church and in the Government are in the position to discover the truth and excercise proper authority to act upon that truth. The authorities hold the power and responsibility to judge these matters. Spectators and those in the news media possess information and maybe partial truths. But acting upon partial truths can be dangerous to the individual, the public generally, and ultimately to truth and justice. Judging from a distance without true knowledge or true facts is the making of an unruly mob that demands any decision, even if biased or incorrect.
 
Dear Tom,

Let’s start with just the first one I spot in your post if I may?

" Why on earth would you throw everyone to the dogs for the sake of those who deserve criminal charges"

Tom, the law does not care about non criminal actions. The Law does not concern herself with matters such as Sue ate a hot dog with full knowledge that doing so on a Friday in Lent would be a mortal sin.

The law is concerned with what it ought to be. The law. Not your religious rules or dogmas.

Who is going to be “thrown to the dogs” here? If all priests did have to report crimes, who would be hurt? Which crimes are you worried about Tom?
 
All Catholics want justice served in any scandal including the sex scandal. Justice is served when the truth is known and those who know it speak up appropriately. The authorities in the Church and in the Government are in the position to discover the truth and excercise proper authority to act upon that truth. The authorities hold the power and responsibility to judge these matters. Spectators and those in the news media possess information and maybe partial truths. But acting upon partial truths can be dangerous to the individual, the public generally, and ultimately to truth and justice. Judging from a distance without true knowledge or true facts is the making of an unruly mob that demands any decision, even if biased or incorrect.
We can solve this problem gregf.
If Catholics truly want justice to be served, then they should have no problem with reporting offenses against the law. Unfortunately, that’s the problem here gregf. I can’t get discovery if I can’t access it.🤷
 
twb1621,you ask the following;-

“If the Catholic Church is blanketly legally responsible to turn over such allegations to police as they receive them, how long do you think it will be before the Catholic Church is also held responsible to turn over everyone who repents a crime in the confessional? Receiving an allegation is not the same as being handed a solid case to prosecute. It is the first step to start an investigation. With certain allegations a person’s reputation is destroyed when it becomes public knowledge and long before proven or disproven. If disproven, society does not forget. Why on earth would you throw everyone to the dogs for the sake of those who deserve criminal charges”.​

1)…The cases in question,are not hypotheticals,they are proven criminal offences.
2)…The Catholic Church is very clear on the Seal of Confession
“There are limited cases where portions of a confession may be revealed to others, but always with the penitent’s permission and always without actually revealing the penitent’s identity. This is the case, for example, with unusually serious offenses, as some excommunicable offenses are reserved to the bishop or even to the Holy See, and their permission to grant absolution would first have to be obtained. There are certain procedures that have been formally set by the Church and civil governments that apply, without violating the seal of confession, if the penitent is a priest or other church official and is guilty of a civil crime involving the sexual exploitation or abuse of minors. These were instituted out of necessity during the sex abuse crises in the American church and in other countries.”<<<<
(your concerns seem unfounded)
3)…The victims bodily and mental health is also “destroyed”,a fact not to be over looked.
They CAN NOT forget!
4). There is no question of “throwing everyone to the dogs”.Investigations can be persued
with the utmost discresion,the police,prosecuters,know how to handle these
allegations,the C.Church is obliged to fully co-operate with them.
Which means,devuldging any credible accusations(especially repeatedly lodged)when they have been made against the alleged perpertrator,as soon as they have been reported,Church intern investigations have proven inadequate up till now.

It is not good enough that guilty priests remain at large for decades,while the wheels of the Vatican grind slowly to a halt.
The the latest guidelines regarding this is to apear on the Vatican offical web-site today / tomorrow.
So,it seems that the voice of the Catholic layity is finally being heard. 👍
 
To The Inquisitive,

Let’s examine what is said on paper before we rejoice. I applaud you for going to primary sources.

Let’s examine what is said. Or, what is not said…
 
Dear Tom,

Let’s start with just the first one I spot in your post if I may?

" Why on earth would you throw everyone to the dogs for the sake of those who deserve criminal charges"

Tom, the law does not care about non criminal actions. The Law does not concern herself with matters such as Sue ate a hot dog with full knowledge that doing so on a Friday in Lent would be a mortal sin.

The law is concerned with what it ought to be. The law. Not your religious rules or dogmas.

Who is going to be “thrown to the dogs” here? If all priests did have to report crimes, who would be hurt? Which crimes are you worried about Tom?
EXACTLY!!!
The Confession is for sinners to repent and receive,if truely repentive,absolution.
Not for criminals to relieve their conscience… untill they commit the same crime again,and again… ad infinitum
 
EXACTLY!!!
The Confession is for sinners to repent and receive,if truely repentive,absolution.
Not for criminals to relieve their conscience… untill they commit the same crime again,and again… ad infinitum
We would need to start an entirely new thread on this subject matter to get attention on this point. I think we should. I will compose some ideas, be back soon
 
Exactly,what we are doing… “geting worked up about the abuse scandal”
Further more,not remaining silent,instead expressing our horror,disgust,and feeling of betrayal.most of all our solidarity with the abused,by doing this,we signal to the Catholic and non-Catholic world,that those people are not,the CHURCH we follow,nor that we in any way identify ourselves with them,nor do we intend suporting them,nor their helper’s helper.
With respect, how will merely expressing umbrage help the victims?
One aspect of “reparation” would be,to ask/demand,that all those implicated,(abuser , those Bishops,Cardinals,and even the Pope who at some level had knowledge,of the extent of the abuse, encouraged them by knowingly allowing them to continue their abuse elsewhere) made a pilgrimage to every Parish,school,Abby, which they oversaw, where abuse took place,beging forgivness for their actions/in-actions.
In earlier times,they would be asked to do this bare foot,dressed in sack-cloth carrying a candle,even Kings were subject to this Penance,for I may stress,much minor crimes against the C.Church…
That would be at least,an outward sign of contrition,acceptence of their part,in not only bringing disgrace upon the Church they vowed to protect,defend and honor,but most of all the hurt,heartbreak,and pain inflicted upon the abused,and their families.
Agreed, the medieval Church knew how to do public penance well. Did one of the Irish bishops not do something similar to what you suggest here? You confuse reparation with penance. Penance is carried out by the ones who committed the offenses. Unless we were one of those people, we can’t do much about that. We can still, however, do reparation. Would you make such a pilgrimage and beg forgiveness on behalf of the victims?
As far as raising money,well we ARE (as you so rightly state) allready paying for compensation,in the MILLIONS,to victims,their families,their lawyers,to the extent that many Parish’s are selling their property and closing shop to pay for it…
But, what about raising money for counselling and therapy as opposed to for compensation. If the Church loses many of its buildings and belongings, maybe this may help us to realise that the Church is the people of God?
 
I have not read any of the posts since I last posted but I just got this today and I thought worth sharing (from WordOnFire.org)

Father Barron, in an update from Rome, offers his remarks on the allegations surrounding Pope Benedict XVI:

"I’m just back from St. Peter’s square, where I witnessed Pope Benedict’s Sunday Angelus broadcast on large screens from Castel Gondolfo. The pontiff has spent the past week there, recovering from his grueling Holy Week schedule- and undoubtedly from the massively unfair press coverage he has been receiving of late. As I listen to the endless reportage dealing with the Holy Father’s supposed negligence in matters of priestly sex abuse, I can only shake my head. I want to say, “don’t they realize that they are going after the one man in the world who can do the most to solve this problem?” No one in the world understands the gravity of the situation more fully or has taken more practical steps to solve it as Joseph Ratzinger. On numerous occassions, he has stated how disgusted he is by the “filth” (his word) that has found its way into the ranks of the priesthood, and time and time again, he has taken firm steps to remove abusers and to chastise those who protected them. I would recommend to anyone who doubts Pope Benedict’s resolve to read his recent statement to the Irish church.

I feel it is important to make two points in particular. First, the insinuation that by delaying or, as alleged, refusing to “defrock” a priest, Benedict is somehow obstructing justice or “looking the other way” is absurd. The formal removal of a man from the priesthood is the last and most drastic disciplinary action that the Church can take and it is done, appropriately, only after long consideration, consultation and due process. But there are many much more expedient ways, shy of “defrocking,” to remove a priest from ministry or contact with children. In the Milwaukee and Oakland cases, for example, this was done even if the priests in question had not been “defrocked.” The implication that Joseph Ratzinger was trying to find a way to “protect” abusers or to abet their abuse is simply a calumny. And the second point is this: it is extremely problematic and unfair to retroject what we currently know about the sexual abuse of children by priests or any other adult back twenty, thirty, forty or fifty years and use our current knowledge about the phenomenon to indict church officials of the time. Prior to the early 1990’s, most people in the Church and in the culture at large were unaware or only beginning to come to grips with the prevalence of this horror and the high rate of recidivism among abusers. Accordingly, many leaders- and not just in the Church- felt that sex offenders could be treated pharmacologically or therapeutically and then returned to their former lives and occupations. Many bishops throughout the 1970’s and 1980’s sent priest abusers to treatment centers and received reports from therapists recommending that priests could be safely returned to ministry. God knows that we have learned from painful experience how utterly inadequate this approach was, but it seems unfair to hold bishops to standards that developed much later. I find the suggestion that bishops and cardinals were intentionally and with malice aiding and abetting the sexual molestation of children to be an outrageous accusation. Were they uninformed, naive, imprudent, indecisive, and, in some cases, far too willing to trust psychological and legal counsel? Sure. Should those prelates whose lack of proper judgement led to the victimization of so many have to accept personal responsibility for their actions? Yes. But were they consciously fostering sex abuse? No.

Finally, and at the risk of sounding defensive, there are people in our society who have a vested interest in embarrassing and undermining the Catholic Church, and they will stop at nothing to achieve this end. The coverage of allegations against the Pope has been blood in the water, and the sharks are circling.

The sexual abuse of young people by priests is a crime that cries to heaven for vengeance. As I have said publicly many times, it has undermined the work of the Church in every way, and the Church must do all it can to address it. But these attacks on Pope Benedict are utterly counter-productive to that end."
 
And some links

Father Barron’s commentary on the current media firestorm surrounding Pope Benedict and the ongoing revelations of sexual abuse by some members of the clergy and the Church’s response will appear in the April 25th edition of Our Sunday Visitor. Upon its release, Word on Fire will also post the article on the blog and website.

Father Barron was also interviewed by NBC news during Holy Week. Only a portion of his commentary was featured on NBC nightly news and the weekend edition of the Today show. Sadly, from an extensive interview, only a few seconds where featured. Here is a link to their story:
msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#36154211

Cardinal George commented to reporters after Mass on Easter Sunday that Catholics should seek the truth behind much of what has been reported. To better facilitate this, here are some recommendations:
As Father Barron recommended, it might be helpful to take a look at the Holy Father’s letter to Catholics in Ireland in the wake of the scandal that enveloped the Church there:
Clarifying allegations made against Pope Benedict when he was Archbishop later Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:
 
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