How do we teach girls to truly respect themselves?

[DarkLight]

And I don’t mean just “cover up!”

From what I’ve seen often in churches there’s a significant lack of teaching girls to respect themselves. I know I grew up in a very conservative church, and while there was a lot of talk about self-respect, I don’t really feel like I learned anything really about respect. I learned to cover up and that that was part of respecting myself, but if anything the modesty talk diminished the respect I had for myself.

My experience was that in many ways what I did and didn’t get - often from church - prepared me for relationship problems. It was very easy to fall for the first guy who told me I was pretty, even if he had no respect for my boundaries and often ridiculed my interests. A lot of church teaching prepared me to dismiss these things and try harder to be more modest and more pleasing to the guy, rather than having the self-respect to leave a man who didn’t treat me well.

One thing I really wished I’d learned was to take early disrespect seriously. So for example, when my boyfriend kept going on about how philosophy was all pointless arguing and no one should study it - that should have been a big red flag.

 

[pensmama87]

I think fathers play a big role in this, by how they interact with their daughters for sure, but maybe especially how daughters see them treat other women, especially their mothers.

 

[1ke]

From what I’ve seen often in churches there’s a significant lack of teaching girls to respect themselves.

From what I’ve seen often -]in churches /-]**at home **there’s a significant lack of teaching girls to respect themselves

I know I grew up in a very conservative church, and while there was a lot of talk about self-respect, I don’t really feel like I learned anything really about respect. I learned to cover up and that that was part of respecting myself, but if anything the modesty talk diminished the respect I had for myself.

I’m not sure why discussions on the virtue of modesty would diminish the respect you have for yourself. The virtues of modesty and respect, along with purity, chastity, and dignity of the person are important topics. They can be covered at various levels of complexity depending on the age of the children involved.

My experience was that in many ways what I did and didn’t get - -]often from church /-]- prepared me for relationship problems.

What leads you to the conclusion it is the Church’s responsibility to prepare you for relationship problems? That responsibility belongs to your parents.

It was very easy to fall for the first guy who told me I was pretty, even if he had no respect for my boundaries and often ridiculed my interests.

Again, parents. I know parents can fail their children, they often do. That is part of our fallen nature.

A lot of church teaching prepared me to dismiss these things and try harder to be more modest and more pleasing to the guy, rather than having the self-respect to leave a man who didn’t treat me well.

I am not familiar with the Church teaching that asks you to do such a thing. What teaching did you receive and from whom?

One thing I really wished I’d learned was to take early disrespect seriously. So for example, when my boyfriend kept going on about how philosophy was all pointless arguing and no one should study it - that should have been a big red flag.

Again-- Parents and parental involvement in their children’s dating relationships.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m not sure why discussions on the virtue of modesty would diminish the respect you have for yourself. The virtues of modesty and respect, along with purity, chastity, and dignity of the person are important topics. They can be covered at various levels of complexity depending on the age of the children involved.

At least the way i learned modesty, it came across very much as “your body is bad and you should hide it away.” The way I learned modesty also put a lot of the onus on women and led to me feeling like I was bad or sinful if I attracted inappropriate attention, no matter what I was doing at the time.

What leads you to the conclusion it is the Church’s responsibility to prepare you for relationship problems? That responsibility belongs to your parents.

You are misreading me. What I was saying was that the teaching I received from my (admittedly protestant) church put me in a position of being more vulnerable to relationship problems later on, because it led me to accept things that were problematic as normal.

Again, parents. I know parents can fail their children, they often do. That is part of our fallen nature.

The church’s job here is to come alongside parents. Churches do in fact teach children how to behave, as well as parents. I have also found that many parents - mine included - don’t know and have no framework for teaching such things, outside of what they are getting from the church.

I am not familiar with the Church teaching that asks you to do such a thing. What teaching did you receive and from whom?

The first one was as I mentioned modesty - the way I learned it encouraged me, when a man behaved inappropriately, to put the blame on myself for being “immodest” rather than to separate from the guy. I also learned to expect that men would pressure women into sex and that this was normal behavior from young men, not something to be avoided.

Another was, the way men’s and women’s roles were taught, it was taught to me as a woman that my job in marriage would be to please and support my husband. While some of that is good, it was taught in a way that led me to see my being expected to change myself and my goals for a man to be a good and normal thing, rather than to see that a man who expected me to conform to his desires as a problem.

Again-- Parents and parental involvement in their children’s dating relationships.

Parents aren’t necessarily going to be able to stay involved in these relationships for young adults - the foundation is important so that young people can make their own healthy decisions.

I am not saying that the Church bears all the responsibility or the blame. But we have an opportunity here in a society where many people are lost in teaching young women how to respect and stand up for themselves in a way that is consistent with Christian teaching. Many parents, as I said, will look to the Church for how they should teach their children.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m not sure why discussions on the virtue of modesty would diminish the respect you have for yourself. The virtues of modesty and respect, along with purity, chastity, and dignity of the person are important topics. They can be covered at various levels of complexity depending on the age of the children involved.

To clear up some confusion, DL grew up in a fringy Protestant church that was weird about modesty, so you’re using the term to mean different things. (Imagine, for instance, what “modesty” means to the Iranian leadership.)

 

[EasterJoy]

Research has shown that there is no substitute for a strong relationship with one’s father, a father who values his daughter as someone destined to be a woman who deserves to make her own decisions and be treated with respect.

If I had to choose one thing a parish could offer young women, however, it would be the older men in the parish being very insistent on that the younger ones distinguish themselves as Christians by treating women with respect.

I do not simply mean “formal deference,” either. I mean teaching them that Christians, both men and women, should have an attitude that actively seeks to show others their value and avoids using a position of power in a self-centered way. I mean something very similar to the very young and the very old being valued and given whatever help they need without being condescended to. I mean an overall goal of reaching true consensus when it would have been easier to seek an advantageous position to push one’s own agenda.

 

[DarkLight]

To clear up some confusion, DL grew up in a fringy Protestant church that was weird about modesty, so you’re using the term to mean different things. (Imagine, for instance, what “modesty” means to the Iranian leadership.)

Fair enough - I was thinking in terms of modesty of dress. I do think that it’s important to watch how we teach women to cover themselves. Not showing off your body is important, but it is also quite easy to slide into blaming women for men not wanting to control themselves. Even once I became Catholic I got a lot of that mentality. (E.g. complaining about harassment and getting the inevitable “well what were you wearing” - like that excuses how men act.)

 

[Xantippe]

And I don’t mean just “cover up!”

From what I’ve seen often in churches there’s a significant lack of teaching girls to respect themselves. I know I grew up in a very conservative church, and while there was a lot of talk about self-respect, I don’t really feel like I learned anything really about respect. I learned to cover up and that that was part of respecting myself, but if anything the modesty talk diminished the respect I had for myself.

My experience was that in many ways what I did and didn’t get - often from church - prepared me for relationship problems. It was very easy to fall for the first guy who told me I was pretty, even if he had no respect for my boundaries and often ridiculed my interests. A lot of church teaching prepared me to dismiss these things and try harder to be more modest and more pleasing to the guy, rather than having the self-respect to leave a man who didn’t treat me well.

One thing I really wished I’d learned was to take early disrespect seriously. So for example, when my boyfriend kept going on about how philosophy was all pointless arguing and no one should study it - that should have been a big red flag.

Here are some thoughts.

Among other things, self-respect might require:

–having a psychological (not just physical) sense of personal dignity and privacy
–being able to say “no” to people as necessary
–having accomplishments
–knowing that you are able to make the world better
–having a sense of vocation

The author at Seraphic Singles/Edinburgh Housewife is very good on a lot of this stuff. She has some stories about her first husband that you may find sound very familiar to you. I would suggest skimming her archives for relevant posts.

Best wishes!

 

[heidi_storage]

Totally agree on the importance of fathers and making sure girls can be competent. Also, a proper relationship with God is key in helping us understand who we are without reference to some random guy’s approval.

 

[edwest2]

And I don’t mean just “cover up!”

From what I’ve seen often in churches there’s a significant lack of teaching girls to respect themselves. I know I grew up in a very conservative church, and while there was a lot of talk about self-respect, I don’t really feel like I learned anything really about respect. I learned to cover up and that that was part of respecting myself, but if anything the modesty talk diminished the respect I had for myself.

My experience was that in many ways what I did and didn’t get - often from church - prepared me for relationship problems. It was very easy to fall for the first guy who told me I was pretty, even if he had no respect for my boundaries and often ridiculed my interests. A lot of church teaching prepared me to dismiss these things and try harder to be more modest and more pleasing to the guy, rather than having the self-respect to leave a man who didn’t treat me well.

One thing I really wished I’d learned was to take early disrespect seriously. So for example, when my boyfriend kept going on about how philosophy was all pointless arguing and no one should study it - that should have been a big red flag.

Relationships are the issue today. Girls of dating age should not just accept the “you’re pretty” part until they get to know the other person. If the young man treats a girl badly or is ‘open to anything,’ then that’s a red flag. I think being a pleasing person in general is good whether you have male or female friends. Modesty goes along with self-respect. When a relative of mine who is very pretty showed up one day in a rather revealing outfit, I calmly pointed out that it was sending a certain message that was not good. She somewhat angrily replied, “Well, all my friends dress like this.” I added that “guys are guys” and they usually respond to attractive girls a certain way. I didn’t scold her, but it’s true. I knew an attractive girl who dated a guy who treated her well at first, but that changed and I saw her crying one day. I told her: “You are worth being with a guy who treats you right. Who respects you.” Two months later, I see her crying again, and I tell her, after hearing what happened, “This sounds like the same guy you last dated, only with a different name.” I encouraged her to avoid guys like this.

Physical attraction doesn’t mean anything to me if I find out the girl is not nice or likes to engage in activities that are not healthy or good. I mean, what are we going to talk about? What will we have in common? A relationship revolves around common values you both share. You don’t have to like all the same things but you should be able to do things together that are fun but not bad. When I was that age, it was a bit easier to do, but a lot of things remain that are enjoyable and inexpensive.

Respect is something you give but if you don’t get it back, you might try again, but if that fails, just politely nip things in the bud. Otherwise, just be respectful to people in general. I like to see how a girl behaves before I talk to her. Even if she’s pretty but is - for example - loud, obnoxious or behaving badly in other ways, then I pass. On the other hand, if she dresses modestly, is pleasant in general, smiles and talks to people nicely, then I feel I can approach her and start a conversation.

Respect is about you as a total person. You have rules about behavior in public, behavior towards guys that are interested in you, and you keep those rules. You have feelings that matter, goals and dreams. Nobody’s perfect but you should find someone you can really talk to and who earns your trust over time. If things go a certain way, you might find someone you really enjoy being with, but certain things that are common today are not on your list: hooking up for a night, moving in with the guy, or doing other things that too many guys and girls think are average or “this what people our age do in a relationship.” Or guys who are only concerned about how hot a girl is and don’t really care to know much about her and get turned off if she has boundaries.

You’re a child of God. I was taught to have great respect for women. We both knew the rules and what the lines were when I was around your age. You could do this but not that, because it would be wrong. But today… it’s a little bad to really bad, morally. Boundaries are good.

I want to suggest this book to everyone reading:

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

And guys should pick it up too.

Ed

 

[EasterJoy]

Totally agree on the importance of fathers and making sure girls can be competent. Also, a proper relationship with God is key in helping us understand who we are without reference to some random guy’s approval.

Ah, but the ones who gain the position of power to do the harm never seem like “some random guy” at the time. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a woman who is extremely competent in other areas of her life and well-liked by friends and colleagues alike put herself in a position where she is accepting bad treatment from the man in her life.

It is not just women, either. I do not know exactly how to innoculate people against what I can only call the drunken fog that a manipulator can put you into if you fall for them! The manipulators seem to have a radar for the good souls who will put up with this kind of treatment. They convince their victims that they are doing them some kind of a favor by sticking with them and treating them badly, and they do it in a secretive way. Maybe the victims are afraid of a break-up or fear that they’ll be ashamed of a break-up, but these have usually not been marriage relationships. I just don’t know!

Perhaps one of the keys is to teach people a) the difference between guilt and shame and b) the principal that in a good relationship a “wrong” is not used as an excuse to gain leverage. I don’t know, though. As I said, I have repeatedly wondered at the things people will put up in a relationship that they would not take in from other people they care about in another context.

 

[Xantippe]

The first one was as I mentioned modesty - the way I learned it encouraged me, when a man behaved inappropriately, to put the blame on myself for being “immodest” rather than to separate from the guy. I also learned to expect that men would pressure women into sex and that this was normal behavior from young men, not something to be avoided.

Another was, the way men’s and women’s roles were taught, it was taught to me as a woman that my job in marriage would be to please and support my husband. While some of that is good, it was taught in a way that led me to see my being expected to change myself and my goals for a man to be a good and normal thing, rather than to see that a man who expected me to conform to his desires as a problem.

…

I am not saying that the Church bears all the responsibility or the blame. But we have an opportunity here in a society where many people are lost in teaching young women how to respect and stand up for themselves in a way that is consistent with Christian teaching. Many parents, as I said, will look to the Church for how they should teach their children.

Some thoughts:

1. Those are some very interesting points. I especially agree with the idea that teaching girls and young women that men are all raging sex fiends is bad because that suggests that there’s not going to be a lot of difference between one raging sex fiend and another raging sex fiend and it’s barely worth trying–you just need to keep them at a safe distance until the appropriate papers are signed. I think it would be more helpful to stress that some men are raging sex fiends and some aren’t, to learn to tell the difference, and to avoid spending time with men that are trying to push boundaries and don’t understand (or pretend not to understand) the word “no.” Because sexual sin aside, you definitely don’t want to find yourself married to a man that doesn’t understand that when you say “no” you mean it, even about something totally non-sexual.

Come to think of it, there’s a lot of danger in any dating/marriage education that is continually stressing that “all men or like this” or “all women are like that.” If all men (or women) are like that, what is the point of getting to know any particular individual?

1. “While some of that is good, it was taught in a way that led me to see my being expected to change myself and my goals for a man to be a good and normal thing, rather than to see that a man who expected me to conform to his desires as a problem.”

Or, come to think of it, you might want to find somebody that wanted to do the same thing you wanted to do.

1. I think that in some circles, people don’t quite get that chastity involves a lot of firmness of character and the ability to say “no” and make it stick. As a reasonably attractive adult single woman, you can’t be soft and squishy and also chaste.
2. I also think that the cardinal virtues have a lot of importance in the self-respect discussion. The four cardinal virtues are:

–prudence
–temperance
–fortitude
–justice

I believe that if you have all of those four cardinal virtues in working order, that it’s almost guaranteed that you will also have self-respect.

 

[DarkLight]

One thing I’ve learned is that the ideas of selflessness and self-sacrifice can be abused by a manipulator. I think young Christian women especially are often taught to put others first in a way that is not always good. It is good to be selfless, but it is also good to know when and where to say “no”. One common trick of the manipulative is to make their victims out to be bad, selfish people any time they say no to the manipulative person. You can get away with a lot by making people feel guilty for not going along with you.

And dating a “devout” Catholic is certainly no guarantee that these behaviors are absent!

 

[pianistclare]

Here are some thoughts.

Among other things, self-respect might require:

–having a psychological (not just physical) sense of personal dignity and privacy
–being able to say “no” to people as necessary
–having accomplishments
–knowing that you are able to make the world better
–having a sense of vocation

The author at Seraphic Singles/Edinburgh Housewife is very good on a lot of this stuff. She has some stories about her first husband that you may find sound very familiar to you. I would suggest skimming her archives for relevant posts.

Best wishes!

I will add : Don’t get in the habit of using the television or internet as a babysitter. Lots of foul influence there from media “darlings” about what a girl should do.

 

[edwest2]

I will add : Don’t get in the habit of using the television or internet as a babysitter. Lots of foul influence there from media “darlings” about what a girl should do.

Agree 100%. Wholesome, dignified, respectful… What’s up with that? Shameful? Guilt? Appropriate?

The media is generally not your friend and it usually depicts really bad guy-girl behavior like it’s nothing.

One cable channel uses the line “No Limits.” to describe itself. Uh, Uh. That’s got to go to full stop. I would never take a girl to see 99.9% of the movies produced every year.

Ed

 

[pensmama87]

I will add : Don’t get in the habit of using the television or internet as a babysitter. Lots of foul influence there from media “darlings” about what a girl should do.

Yeah, movie and TV relationships in general are crazy. Even with the “good” ones I may find myself saying to the screen, “Or you could just say what you mean,maybe?” But then there’d be no plot.

 

[heidi_storage]

Ah, but the ones who gain the position of power to do the harm never seem like “some random guy” at the time. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a woman who is extremely competent in other areas of her life and well-liked by friends and colleagues alike put herself in a position where she is accepting bad treatment from the man in her life.

It is not just women, either. I do not know exactly how to innoculate people against what I can only call the drunken fog that a manipulator can put you into if you fall for them! The manipulators seem to have a radar for the good souls who will put up with this kind of treatment. They convince their victims that they are doing them some kind of a favor by sticking with them and treating them badly, and they do it in a secretive way. Maybe the victims are afraid of a break-up or fear that they’ll be ashamed of a break-up, but these have usually not been marriage relationships. I just don’t know!

Perhaps one of the keys is to teach people a) the difference between guilt and shame and b) the principal that in a good relationship a “wrong” is not used as an excuse to gain leverage. I don’t know, though. As I said, I have repeatedly wondered at the things people will put up in a relationship that they would not take in from other people they care about in another context.

Quite. Hence the importance of knowing who you are before God before venturing into the dating world.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Watch these videos.

Leah Darrow was a fallen-away Catholic and one-time contestant on America’s Next Top Model. She didn’t win, but did pursue a modeling career anyhow. Then one day when she was doing a photoshoot while a wearing a rather immodest outfit, she had a “come to Jesus” moment and quit her modeling career right there on the spot.

She returned to the Church and is now a motivational speaker. Her target audience is young women and her message is self-respect, chastity and modesty.

Both of these are about an hour long. Watch them in this order.

1. youtube.com/watch?v=78pQoOsHSaI
2. youtube.com/watch?v=wLca-0gVR0w

 

[DarkLight]

Watch these videos.

Leah Darrow was a fallen-away Catholic and one-time contestant on America’s Next Top Model. She didn’t win, but did pursue a modeling career anyhow. Then one day when she was doing a photoshoot while a wearing a rather immodest outfit, she had a “come to Jesus” moment and quit her modeling career right there on the spot.

She returned to the Church and is now a motivational speaker. Her target audience is young women and her message is self-respect, chastity and modesty.

Both of these are about an hour long. Watch them in this order.

1. youtube.com/watch?v=78pQoOsHSaI
2. youtube.com/watch?v=wLca-0gVR0w

I think I’m coming at it from the opposite perspective - I was a young woman who was taught a lot of modesty and chastity and would never have dreamed of exposing so much as a shoulder. But I didn’t learn real self-respect and my baggy clothes hid a lot of difficulties with my body, and I ended up in an abusive relationship because I didn’t have any real idea of what self-respect meant beyond “cover up and don’t have sex.”

 

[Cariethra]

I haven’t gone through all of the comments, so forgive me if what I say is repetitive. I will also say that my statement is an extreme generalization, there are exceptions to it all.

A lot of what you have mentioned is a case of poor sociological upbringing. It is typically a result of a male and sexist mentality. This is a cultural issue. As women in society at large (ignoring church teachings from any faith) we are viewed as items. We need to look and dress a certain way to be considered “valuable”. This is where the counter-culture of modesty often breaks women down and binds them. It isn’t the idea itself but the fact that then as women we battle two sides. The popular media saying that we should dress this way and show men “all we got”. The more conservative side saying that we should cover up as to not tempt our fellow man. These both say, “You are not of value unless you do this.”

That is where the lack of self respect comes from. If you can’t get someone’s approval you have not value. As young women we then look to the men around us who are brainwashed into thinking that women are toys. Porn is a huge instigator of this. Porn teaches boys that women should basically look and act like little girls (only with developed breasts). Then when they reach out to a real woman and find that isn’t true they are taken aback and view those women as less valuable.

I don’t think this is an issue with any church per say, but one of popular media and world culture being so incredibly negative towards women.

As a parent, it is my duty to make sure that my daughter AND sons realize what value a person has. What is true respect? What love really is. How love and lust differ. I do not expect the Church to teach this to my children. I certainly don’t expect the outside world to teach this.

I know a lot of people like to think that the world has modernized and that men and women are equals… but we aren’t. Women are still seen as mindless sex toys. Men are still seen as hormone driven brutes. None of this is true. But is affects everything that we think and do.