How do we teach girls to truly respect themselves?

[ShadowBoxer]

I dated a woman who “knew how to carry herself” but how many today even know what that means?

Good question. The parents have to teach them, because they’re not going to learn it in school: Catholic or otherwise.

 

[Sarcelle]

Good question. The parents have to teach them, because they’re not going to learn it in school: Catholic or otherwise.

Even better modeled by the parents.

 

[dedo]

Another book recommendation:

Christian Men Who Hate Women: Healing Hurting Relationships

I think this is the answer, read some books. We should all be doing this as relationships are very important. It is especially important for women to learn how to spot bad actors and to stay out of bad situations. Other books on situational awareness are good too.

I skimmed the reviews on the book Just Lurking recommended and ordered it myself. I don’t think I am “controlling” as I have done what I could think of since early in our marriage to make sure my wife was not dependent on me, whether that is financially or in decision making. She is coming back from Vienna tomorrow from vacation, that I could not make and when she had plastic surgery, I found out about it after she got home. However, one reviewer said the book helped him express his feelings more, and I could be better with that, for sure.

Also, I am interested in evangelization, and understanding why some people end up as jerks even after seeking God is important for me to know. So I ordered the book Just Lurking recommended.

So I don’t think the issue for the OP is really dress, but learning to spot bad actors in numerous situations. Parents can’t be expected to teach all of that so reading is the only way to learn it. Learning some self defense (Krav Maga etc.) is also not a bad idea.

Good luck.

 

[Xantippe]

So I don’t think the issue for the OP is really dress, but learning to spot bad actors in numerous situations. Parents can’t be expected to teach all of that so reading is the only way to learn it. Learning some self defense (Krav Maga etc.) is also not a bad idea.

I seriously think that one of the big tasks of the late teens/early 20s is to learn to evaluate other people and read them. Teens are often just so self-centered or full of their own problems that it’s hard for them to be a fair judge of other people.

It is genuinely a very long process thing to learn, “Can I take this person at face value? Are they who they seem to be?”

The Gift of Fear is another good read for young adults, especially as it encourages people to trust their instincts when they start getting emotional red flags.

 

[DarkLight]

I think this is the answer, read some books. We should all be doing this as relationships are very important. It is especially important for women to learn how to spot bad actors and to stay out of bad situations. Other books on situational awareness are good too.

I skimmed the reviews on the book Just Lurking recommended and ordered it myself. I don’t think I am “controlling” as I have done what I could think of since early in our marriage to make sure my wife was not dependent on me, whether that is financially or in decision making. She is coming back from Vienna tomorrow from vacation, that I could not make and when she had plastic surgery, I found out about it after she got home. However, one reviewer said the book helped him express his feelings more, and I could be better with that, for sure.

Also, I am interested in evangelization, and understanding why some people end up as jerks even after seeking God is important for me to know. So I ordered the book Just Lurking recommended.

So I don’t think the issue for the OP is really dress, but learning to spot bad actors in numerous situations. Parents can’t be expected to teach all of that so reading is the only way to learn it. Learning some self defense (Krav Maga etc.) is also not a bad idea.

Good luck.

Well, I made the point about dress because in a lot of circles I’ve found “teaching girls self-respect” is just code for teaching them to cover up more. And I think if we teach girls the wrong way about clothing, they end up thinking in certain situations, well maybe if I covered up more and was more modest the guy wouldn’t act like that. When the truth is often that the guy has no respect for boundaries and needs to be kicked to the curb.

 

[dedo]

Xantippe:

That is a great book and I got it after you recommended it!

DarkLight:

Agreed. However, books like the one Xantippe recommended will help you spot these sorts of actors before they get near you. Other books like the one JustLurking suggested, or maybe a book on Narcissism, will help you kick em to the curb faster. Hopefully, you will then not have to kick em somewhere else, but it helps to be ready for that too. I cannot comment on ladies dress other than to say I have no opinion on the matter, and I am not interested in meddling with people’s free expression. If I were to go further and be too supportive, that would risk being a pervert, and to object to something would risk being a controlling, judgmental, jerk.

I think you are on the right track.

 

[chevalier]

How do we teach girls to truly respect themselves?

You need men who respect women for that. This includes fathers, brothers, friends and hangers-out-with that are increasingly referred to as boyfriends as the young lady grows up.

And to have such men around you need to have women around who respect men. As a minimum that means not laughing at a man for being a gentleman. Men, especially the more vulnerable younger kind, don’t take well to being embarrassed, especially not in public. And, for some reason, women seem to enjoy inflicting such embarrassment on men, even if only in jest. I suppose this is some part of the human species’s mating game.

In any case, someone has to start respecting the opposite camp, refraining from the negative behaviours, and offering perceivable appreciation of the positive behaviours (e.g. gestures of chivalry).

Also, girls need parental attention to avoid the frat/sorority nonsense taking advantage of their vulnerable psyches at some points in their lives, especially when appearance consciousness kicks in and hormones inevitably start making life difficult.

I’m not a professional by any means (although as a criminal lawyer in a former life I like to call myself an expert in human nature ), but I also believe that an excess of negative feedback from parents and other relatives, especially senior relatives, can be damaging to self-respect after damaging one’s self-worth and self-esteem. This includes being compared to the better sibling (or cousin or even parent or friend) but also a lot of communicated disappointment.

For example I had my own self-esteem damaged as a result of what I saw as unrealistic complaints (‘what? just an A? why no flying colours/honours/distinction/whatever?’), which I remembered into my middle age.

I suspect the communication of high expectations, while it can produce positive effects, is a difficult thing to do correctly. It can backfire.

On the other hand, an excess of affirmation is not good, either, as it can lead to the formation of a feeling of organic superiority (a birthright kind of thing, as if they are a social class or two higher than their actual peers; not an uncommon thing in women, actually, and mighty annoying, if you’ll forgive my taking the liberty).

For the record, while this is just a relatively superficial aspect of it all, formal drilling in etiquette (a little upscale compared to the needs of one’s everyday existence) is not a bad idea, as it makes people sensitive to respect and ways of showing it and seeing it shown and expecting it. But without Victorian reenactment nonsense unless in the full consciousness of it being a sort of SCA activity.

Assertiveness training could help. People who are trained to unquestioningly obey and defer to other people’s judgement and generally be easy little children to control could find it difficult to identify and turn down unreasonable requests from their peers, including peers in some position of control. A male friend or acquaintance tends to be in that sort of position by default as the physically stronger of the two and thus the default protector, provider etc.

 

[Sarcelle]

You need men who respect women for that. This includes fathers, brothers, friends and hangers-out-with that are increasingly referred to as boyfriends as the young lady grows up.

And to have such men around you need to have women around who respect men. As a minimum that means not laughing at a man for being a gentleman. Men, especially the more vulnerable younger kind, don’t take well to being embarrassed, especially not in public. And, for some reason, women seem to enjoy inflicting such embarrassment on men, even if only in jest. I suppose this is some part of the human species’s mating game.

In any case, someone has to start respecting the opposite camp, refraining from the negative behaviours, and offering perceivable appreciation of the positive behaviours (e.g. gestures of chivalry).

Also, girls need parental attention to avoid the frat/sorority nonsense taking advantage of their vulnerable psyches at some points in their lives, especially when appearance consciousness kicks in and hormones inevitably start making life difficult.

I’m not a professional by any means (although as a criminal lawyer in a former life I like to call myself an expert in human nature ), but I also believe that an excess of negative feedback from parents and other relatives, especially senior relatives, can be damaging to self-respect after damaging one’s self-worth and self-esteem. This includes being compared to the better sibling (or cousin or even parent or friend) but also a lot of communicated disappointment.

For example I had my own self-esteem damaged as a result of what I saw as unrealistic complaints (‘what? just an A? why no flying colours/honours/distinction/whatever?’), which I remembered into my middle age.

I suspect the communication of high expectations, while it can produce positive effects, is a difficult thing to do correctly. It can backfire.

On the other hand, an excess of affirmation is not good, either, as it can lead to the formation of a feeling of organic superiority (a birthright kind of thing, as if they are a social class or two higher than their actual peers; not an uncommon thing in women, actually, and mighty annoying, if you’ll forgive my taking the liberty).

For the record, while this is just a relatively superficial aspect of it all, formal drilling in etiquette (a little upscale compared to the needs of one’s everyday existence) is not a bad idea, as it makes people sensitive to respect and ways of showing it and seeing it shown and expecting it. But without Victorian reenactment nonsense unless in the full consciousness of it being a sort of SCA activity.

Assertiveness training could help. People who are trained to unquestioningly obey and defer to other people’s judgement and generally be easy little children to control could find it difficult to identify and turn down unreasonable requests from their peers, including peers in some position of control. A male friend or acquaintance tends to be in that sort of position by default as the physically stronger of the two and thus the default protector, provider etc.

Inflicting embarrassment on members of the opposite sex is not solely a female characteristic. A lot of men have also been more than willing to taunt and harass women who they deem as not being attractive enough. I have heard words such as “save the whales, harpoon a fat chick”. I don’t know about you but that is not edifying.

A lot of girls have also been raised with the notion that their sole worth is measured in their ability to attract men.

 

[DarkLight]

Inflicting embarrassment on members of the opposite sex is not solely a female characteristic. A lot of men have also been more than willing to taunt and harass women who they deem as not being attractive enough. I have heard words such as “save the whales, harpoon a fat chick”. I don’t know about you but that is not edifying.

I’ve also found that a lot of more traditional guys tend not to know what to do when a woman helps them out. I’ve had an amazing number of guys who are startled or think I’m making a statement by holding doors - it’s just how I was raised.

 

[Polluted]

And I don’t mean just “cover up!”

From what I’ve seen often in churches there’s a significant lack of teaching girls to respect themselves. I know I grew up in a very conservative church, and while there was a lot of talk about self-respect, I don’t really feel like I learned anything really about respect. I learned to cover up and that that was part of respecting myself, but if anything the modesty talk diminished the respect I had for myself.

My experience was that in many ways what I did and didn’t get - often from church - prepared me for relationship problems. It was very easy to fall for the first guy who told me I was pretty, even if he had no respect for my boundaries and often ridiculed my interests. A lot of church teaching prepared me to dismiss these things and try harder to be more modest and more pleasing to the guy, rather than having the self-respect to leave a man who didn’t treat me well.

One thing I really wished I’d learned was to take early disrespect seriously. So for example, when my boyfriend kept going on about how philosophy was all pointless arguing and no one should study it - that should have been a big red flag.

I actually agree that much of philosophy is pointless. How was that a red flag?

 

[DarkLight]

I actually agree that much of philosophy is pointless. How was that a red flag?

Because I was a philosophy major and aiming for graduate work in philosophy. Dismissing someone else’s work as “pointless” is a red flag.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I actually agree that much of philosophy is pointless. How was that a red flag?

Well, for starters, classical philosophy is the foundation on which western theology as a whole has built its institution. More modern philosophy deals with, among other things, relationships between the sexes (see: Dietrich von Hildebrand) and the political ideas which shaped most of the 20th century (Karl Marx, Whittaker Chambers. Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, etc) and will therefore shape, presumably, the 21st century.

So for someone to say that philosophy is pointless is or could be a red flag for several reasons:

1. It could mean that they’re ignorant of philosophy’s influence on both their religion (if of a western theological tradition), history (in general), and the modern world, but despite knowing nothing about a subject are willing to dismiss it as pointless;
2. It could mean that they do recognize all of the above, but don’t care, meaning that they’re anti-intellectual in approach–and for someone like DarkLight, who is quite intelligent and intellectual, that would be a red flag in that neither she nor a person like that would be happy in any sort of long-term relationship together;
3. It could mean that the boyfriend is being rude and dismissive of a subject dear to his girlfriend’s heart, showing a lack of basic courtesy. In any relationship, there are usually going to be some differing interests between the two. I, for example, have an interest in modern parenting, feminism, and how the two interact and the probable results thereof. I also enjoy sewing. DH couldn’t possibly care less about either of those topics if he tried, but he’ll listen to me talk about them and put in a comment now and then to show he’s listening and interested because I’m interested; he cares about these subjects because they’re important to me.

Likewise, DH loves football. I’m very “meh” at best about football, but I’ll watch it with him because he likes to hang out with me while he watches games, I’ve tried to learn enough about it to talk about it intelligently, and I’ll listen good-naturedly to his furious rants about the mistreatment of his beloved Dolphins at the hands of the referees because that’s important to him. That’s what you do when you care about someone. You don’t dismiss their interests as “pointless,” even though anyone of any sense knows that football is eminently pointless, while fabric pairings in a quilt, on the other hand, can be discussed intelligently for hours.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Because I was a philosophy major and aiming for graduate work in philosophy. Dismissing someone else’s work as “pointless” is a red flag.

Ha! And we cross-posted, so I didn’t even know this when I posted.

Yeah. MAJOR red flag. For all of the reasons I listed, but especially the lack of basic civility about a (supposed) loved one’s interests.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I collect books. Love books. Spend as much of my life around books as possible. In college, I’d scrimp and save to be able to buy books for the collection.

I once made the mistake of going on a date with a guy who proceeded to spend the date telling me I needed to throw away my books because they were a waste of space. We’d met on a dating website and gotten together after emailing for a day or two (lived in the same town), so I didn’t exactly have much advanced warning that he was like this.

Needless to say, there was no second date.

 

[DarkLight]

Ha! And we cross-posted, so I didn’t even know this when I posted.

Yeah. MAJOR red flag. For all of the reasons I listed, but especially the lack of basic civility about a (supposed) loved one’s interests.

The basic civility was what I was thinking. That was a general trend - anything I liked was stupid and pointless, unless it happened to overlap with something he liked. And I fell all over myself to try to justify to him why my interests weren’t pointless, when the proper thing to do would have been to realize we simply weren’t compatible, and that he was being rude.

 

[chevalier]

Inflicting embarrassment on members of the opposite sex is not solely a female characteristic.

Of course it isn’t, but I didn’t say it was, either.

A lot of men have also been more than willing to taunt and harass women who they deem as not being attractive enough.

I don’t want to be dismissive, but that’s not really my experience.

I have heard words such as “save the whales, harpoon a fat chick”. I don’t know about you but that is not edifying.

Of course it’s not, but I’m not sure that it’s comparable to what I described. I was talking about a mellower sort of negativity from a broader scope of females, while it’s my impression that the kind of abuse you described is rarer, narrower, not really mainstream among boys and young men. Correct me if I’m wrong?

A lot of girls have also been raised with the notion that their sole worth is measured in their ability to attract men.[/quotes]

I haven’t really seen that much of that, to be honest, even though I’ve seen plenty of issues relating to self-esteem. Even so, my impression is that a lot of those problems relate to comparisons between women, as I’ve heard a lot of women say that they don’t dress up for men, they dress up for other women. (And that’s something heartbreaking from a male perspective to hear, if one lets his emotional guard down.) Certainly, it’s never a pleasure to see a woman think of herself that way, whatever’s the cause.

PS. I’ve heard my own share. Including something to the effect of ‘dead fish’ or ‘can’t possibly imagine this or that’. She had a right to her opinion, I’m not gonna debate it. She probably even had something of a point, but that doesn’t make me lose my sleep. If I had only those problems!

 

[Just_Lurking]

Of course it’s not, but I’m not sure that it’s comparable to what I described. I was talking about a mellower sort of negativity from a broader scope of females, while it’s my impression that the kind of abuse you described is rarer, narrower, not really mainstream among boys and young men. Correct me if I’m wrong?

Unfortunately, this kind of abuse is not at all rare. For example, this is listed under “best-selling gifts.”

 

[chevalier]

Unfortunately, this kind of abuse is not at all rare. For example, this is listed under “best-selling gifts.”

Cultural difference, I guess. I do live on a different continent.

I’ve also found that a lot of more traditional guys tend not to know what to do when a woman helps them out. I’ve had an amazing number of guys who are startled or think I’m making a statement by holding doors - it’s just how I was raised.

Hehe. Oh that. Well, it takes some smarts and presence of mind to know what to do, for sure. Personally, I accept help and thank politely, perhaps more proactively than if it were a man (from a man to a woman it’s more de rigueur, but from a woman to a man it’s more voluntary, as well as courageous in way, and more self-denying). The proper way is to accept the courtesy with appropriate thanks, not to make a show of ‘I will never let you’. Even when a woman is actually trying to pay for you at a meal or some other event (it does happen), perhpas because she was the one inviting or is reciprocating; as a polite guy you just return the favour next time, though I don’t doubt that a lot of traditional guys will make a scene. Can’t really expect very advanced etiquette or social prowess from someone who had no one to teach him that.

For the record, most young women don’t know how to react to traditional courtesies, though exceptions exist. I’ve even seen very young females extend their hands with the back of the palm turned upward (i.e. not for a handshake).

Much of the time it’s become more polite to actually avoid those traditional courtesies in order not to put women in the awkward situation of embarrassment and not knowing what to do.

 

[chevalier]

The basic civility was what I was thinking. That was a general trend - anything I liked was stupid and pointless, unless it happened to overlap with something he liked. And I fell all over myself to try to justify to him why my interests weren’t pointless, when the proper thing to do would have been to realize we simply weren’t compatible, and that he was being rude.

Sounds like a personality clash between a more old-fashionedly kind and polite person vs a more self-absorbed modern kind of person. Your reaction, as you describe it, sounds to me like a cultural shock resulting from that sort of encounter; I’ve been there done that too. Unfortunately, I’ve hardened somewhat as a result, so I can a bit brusque in manner these days.

 

[mommy_k]

Coming in at the 11th hour here.

For our girls–

-teaching modesty and privacy from the age they are potty triained.
-helping then choose friends from a young age and what true friendhip looks like when they are a bit older.
-teaching them that their opinions matter
-teaching them skills and enhancing natural abilities
-sheilding them from inappropriateness, or telling them why things are not approrite in our family tv shows, books, stores and clothing choices.
-teaching them that at times it’s ok to say no.
-teaching them to respect others and to expect the same kindness back-if not it’s ok to assert herself-and not with meanness.
-teaching them the difference between beauty and sexiness.
-teaching them how to choose foods that will add to health and proper hygiene
-teaching them how to take care of belongings

• teaching them about Mary and teaching them from a young age that thoier bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit

It is important for parents to be role models as well as older brothers and sisters. If a mom shops at vicoria secret with ther daughter-and things like this it is not ok. If manners are out the window at home-it is not ok. If bad language is used at home-not ok even with the smallest things-teach.

Teaching a daughter to be quietly confident and kindly assertive helps a lot in the above, and that’s where her opinion-right or wrong should be heard and discussed.
.I also think this is true of sons too.
Just my 2 cents.