How Do We Treat The Homeless?

[alaindelong]

For one thing, you are confusing those protestants of the early reformation w/ modern day protestants. Surely, you can’t seriously believe that ALL modern day protestants think in the same terms as the early reformers? Most of them don’t even know what ‘protestant’ or ‘reformers’ means, nor do they even care. They’re too busy trying to live their lives the best way they know how based on the Bible. Can we really fault them for that? Can we really fault them for living in invincible ignorance?

Secondly, you say that ALL protestants believe this. That is a pretty broad statement. Have you personally interviewed ALL protestants to ensure that statement is true?

Thirdly, you say that believing in salvation, based on faith in the salvific work of Christ alone(which, of course, involves His GRACE) is refuted by Matt. 25:31-46. That passage was not written w/ the intention of ‘refuting’ that notion. The fact is, we CAN DO NOTHING on our own to further ‘merit’ our salvation w/o God’s grace. Only by His Grace can we do anything like feeding, clothing, etc. the homeless. This applies to both Catholics and protestants, regardless of whether they believe it.

On another vein, we have to define what we mean by both ‘salvation’ and ‘merit’ in the context of what you are speaking of. If you really dig into the protestant vs. Catholic definitions of those terms alone, you will discover that they both mean different things. You mean one thing when you say ‘merit’ or ‘salvation’. A protestant hears something else. You probably are thinking of ‘salvation’ (if you are using the Catholic definition) as a process.

Most evangelicals (notice I’m not lumping all protestants together?) think of ‘salvation’ in terms of ESTABLISHING a relationship w/ Jesus; NOT continuing one. The Catholic definition of ‘salvation’ to an evangelical protestant would include ‘conversion’ in the sense I just mentioned, ‘sanctification’, the process of growing in holiness, and ‘glorification’ when we are glorified on the last day. Some protestant groups share that definition (i.e. Lutherans, Epicopalians, etc.)

Most protestants think of the term ‘merit’ as meaning ‘earn’. When the Church uses the term, she generally means to ‘obtain’. She rarely (if ever) uses it in context of salvation as ‘earning’ salvation. And, again, I would bet that a good majority of protestants DO believe that FAITH W/O WORKS IS DEAD. If they didn’t believe that, they would simply remove James from their bibles, or ignore it, and yet, as an evangelical protestant I heard that passage preached on a lot (and I was in some very anti-Catholic groups).

The bottom line is, no, sola fide does not have a leg to stand on. But then again, I would venture to say I don’t really believe that the average protestant REALLY believes in it either once you get past the semantics…

…and I said I would remain silent on this issue in the future. Okay, so I lied…I’ll go to confession…(-;

I am sorry but you are wrong. I am very familiar with the theologies of Protestants and Catholics with regard to justification. My wife was a protestant , I have studied Luther and the genesis of the protestant faith. Every Protestant that I know believes that they are all saved by sola fide.
Not by any works.

In Matthew 25:31-46 Christ IS telling us that we must feed, give water, clothe etc every soul who is in need of our Christian Charity. OF COURSE we are doing this for the glory of God not our own. There are no time constraints with these versus. They are not contained within any strictures of time and space. Matthew 25:31-46 speaks to the heart of all believers and it is about SINS OF OMISSION. When we fail to administer to the least of Christ’s brethren we are leaving CHRIST UNATTENDED! WHY ARE THE GOATS SENT TO HELL???

 

[Drawmack]

…and I said I would remain silent on this issue in the future. Okay, so I lied…I’ll go to confession…(-;

Thank you, I had not responded to that post out of respect for your request to stay on topic, but I’m glad that you did.

 

[Drawmack]

I am sorry but you are wrong. I am very familiar with the theologies of Protestants and Catholics with regard to justification. My wife was a protestant , I have studied Luther and the genesis of the protestant faith.

What about Calvin? You can’t really claim to understand Protestants without understanding him. Also, please forgive me while I laugh myself silly over you honestly attempting to use an argument from authority (a logical fallacy) because your wife used to be protestant. You don’t even mention the denomination. You cannot, CANNOT, lump all Protestants in together on statements like this.

Every Protestant that I know believes that they are all saved by sola fide.
Not by any works.

We are saved by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean that faith without works is okay either. These are separate issues. Let’s say you have someone who was an atheist their entire life. Then, one minute before they died, they accepted Christ. Is this person saved? Did this person have time to complete any works? So, what saved them? Isn’t this the entire point of the parable with the workers?

In Matthew 25:31-46 Christ IS telling us that we must feed, give water, clothe etc every soul who is in need of our Christian Charity. OF COURSE we are doing this for the glory of God not our own. There are no time constraints with these versus. They are not contained within any strictures of time and space. Matthew 25:31-46 speaks to the heart of all believers and it is about SINS OF OMISSION. When we fail to administer to the least of Christ’s brethren we are leaving CHRIST UNATTENDED! WHY ARE THE GOATS SENT TO HELL???

Yes, you are correct. Believers must do good works. But those good works do not earn someone salvation. Jesus already earned our salvation on the cross. A person who claims to believe but does not good works are just one type of person Christ was talking about when he said “Many will say Lord, Lord. And, I will say I never knew you.” (I’m paraphrasing but you know what verse I’m talking about here.)

This is the basis of the statement Sola Fide. I am saved by my faith alone. However, that faith dictates that I do other things because I have that faith. But, those other things do nothing for my salvation. Jesus already did everything that must be done for my salvation.

This is a case of Catholics and Protestants talking across one another. Protestants say Catholicism is works based and the Catholics rebel at this. Catholics say that Protestants think they don’t have to do good works and Protestants rebel at this. At the crux of the entire issue is that there are Catholics and Protestants who are improperly catechised and can’t properly explain the position of their church and this just exacerbates the issue. Not to mention the lexicalogical issues pointed out by a previous poster.

Finally, I am sorry for taking this thread off topic and would ask that if you really want to discuss the six solas we do it in another thread (better yet six other threads). This thread is about homelessness.

 

[RoncalliM]

What a wonderful experiment by these college students! Although there may have been some bias in their earnings, as I for one, look somewhat suspiciously at young, seemingly healthy panhandlers.

That said, the classic trade off between caring for those in need and motivating self-sufficiency is a conundrum I do not think social science can solve.

 

[alaindelong]

What about Calvin? You can’t really claim to understand Protestants without understanding him. Also, please forgive me while I laugh myself silly over you honestly attempting to use an argument from authority (a logical fallacy) because your wife used to be protestant. You don’t even mention the denomination. You cannot, CANNOT, lump all Protestants in together on statements like this.

We are saved by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean that faith without works is okay either. These are separate issues. Let’s say you have someone who was an atheist their entire life. Then, one minute before they died, they accepted Christ. Is this person saved? Did this person have time to complete any works? So, what saved them? Isn’t this the entire point of the parable with the workers?

Yes, you are correct. Believers must do good works. But those good works do not earn someone salvation. Jesus already earned our salvation on the cross. A person who claims to believe but does not good works are just one type of person Christ was talking about when he said “Many will say Lord, Lord. And, I will say I never knew you.” (I’m paraphrasing but you know what verse I’m talking about here.)

This is the basis of the statement Sola Fide. I am saved by my faith alone. However, that faith dictates that I do other things because I have that faith. But, those other things do nothing for my salvation. Jesus already did everything that must be done for my salvation.

This is a case of Catholics and Protestants talking across one another. Protestants say Catholicism is works based and the Catholics rebel at this. Catholics say that Protestants think they don’t have to do good works and Protestants rebel at this. At the crux of the entire issue is that there are Catholics and Protestants who are improperly catechised and can’t properly explain the position of their church and this just exacerbates the issue. Not to mention the lexicalogical issues pointed out by a previous poster.

Finally, I am sorry for taking this thread off topic and would ask that if you really want to discuss the six solas we do it in another thread (better yet six other threads). This thread is about homelessness.

It says you’re Catholic but I am sure you still think like a Protestant. How can you say works do not help to get us into heaven??? Have you really read Matthew 25:31-46??? Do you know what is meant by sins of omission??? Why do you suppose the goats on Jesus’ left are sent to hell??? IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY FAILED TO ADMINISTER TO CHRIST IN THE LEAST OF HIS BREHREN? Do you think their failure to see Christ in all suffering souls ultimately caused them to lose their salvation< You aren’t going to get the last word here and try to say it is off topic. All the
homelss fit into Matthew 25:31-46.

All of us need to become aplogists for our faith, but I will never become "aplogetic: about the case I make for Catholic Christianity.

 

[Drawmack]

It says you’re Catholic but I am sure you still think like a Protestant. How can you say works do not help to get us into heaven??? Have you really read Matthew 25:31-46??? Do you know what is meant by sins of omission??? Why do you suppose the goats on Jesus’ left are sent to hell???

I will not entertain your questions until you answer mine:

We are saved by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean that faith without works is okay either. These are separate issues. Let’s say you have someone who was an atheist their entire life. Then, one minute before they died, they accepted Christ. Is this person saved? Did this person have time to complete any works? So, what saved them? Isn’t this the entire point of the parable with the workers?

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY FAILED TO ADMINISTER TO CHRIST IN THE LEAST OF HIS BREHREN?

I do not respond to my own mother when she yells at me, I’m certainly not going to respond to your incivility.

Do you think their failure to see Christ in all suffering souls ultimately caused them to lose their salvation< You aren’t going to get the last word here and try to say it is off topic. All the homelss fit into Matthew 25:31-46.

Again, I will entertain your questions when you answer mine.

All of us need to become aplogists for our faith, but I will never become "aplogetic: about the case I make for Catholic Christianity.

Of course not. You’re a Catholic and no good Catholic is actually kind or polite to other people.

 

[Lorrie]

You’re a Catholic and no good Catholic is actually kind or polite to other people.

I hope you’re being sarcastic.

 

[alaindelong]

I will not entertain your questions until you answer mine:

I do not respond to my own mother when she yells at me, I’m certainly not going to respond to your incivility.

Again, I will entertain your questions when you answer mine.

Of course not. You’re a Catholic and no good Catholic is actually kind or polite to other people.

And you call yourself an apologist? You can’t answer the questions for one simple reason. you have eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. Jesus did save the theif on the cross by his faith. Don’t you think at that late time it would have been impossible for him to come down from the cross to administer to the poor? Like there were spikes driven through his body.

My wife was one of 40,000 protestant denominationsthat exist.

 

[Drawmack]

I hope you’re being sarcastic.

Yes, I was.

 

[Drawmack]

And you call yourself an apologist? You can’t answer the questions for one simple reason. you have eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. Jesus did save the theif on the cross by his faith. Don’t you think at that late time it would have been impossible for him to come down from the cross to administer to the poor? Like there were spikes driven through his body.

My wife was one of 40,000 protestant denominationsthat exist.

You are saying that I cannot answer questions because I do not have eyes to see, but you have not yet answered my questions.

 

[alaindelong]

You are saying that I cannot answer questions because I do not have eyes to see, but you have not yet answered my questions.

You can’t answer the questions so you hide behind that foolish statement :I will not answer that question untill you answer mine. You sound like someone hiding behind the 5th amendement. Oh , by the way Calvin did also believe in Sola Fide. Study the confessions.

My wife was a 7th Day Adventist, Episcopalian, Mormon and then came into the Christ’s Church this Easter. I had years and years to debate the myriad pastors that would come to our house. My wife , in many ways, was a microcosm of the 40,000 different Protestant denominations. Most of these splintered faiths claim their genesis from their inability to come to an agreement on biblical interpretation. You really fit right in with all of this protestant disunity. You really have given me a very weak argument , or even remained silent about Matthew 25. To paraphrase it for you Christ is telling us, feed my sheep or run the risk of hell. The Fall of Adam and Eve, and I am not trying to trivialize it, took place over a piece of fruit. How much greater are the sins of omission where you and I leave Christ unattended? I thought you are now Catholic, Even the most liberal Catholics that I know believe in corporal works of mercy and the salvific role that they play throughout salvation history. Father Groescel calls Matthew 25:31-46 our final report card.

 

[alaindelong]

You are saying that I cannot answer questions because I do not have eyes to see, but you have not yet answered my questions.

Good thing you are not a defense attorney.

 

[alaindelong]

I hope you’re being sarcastic.

Pax Domini sit semper tecum.

 

[Lorrie]

Pax Domini sit semper tecum.

Et cum spiritu tuo

 

[Convert66]

I am surprised that it took 5 pages for anyone (Roncalli finally did so) to point out the obvious flaw in the college “guys” experiment.

That it has degenerated into a debate on works vs. faith is also telling of how uncharitable fellow Christians can be to one another while the homeless stand by waiting for a theological ruling so that they can find some work, or food or a safe place to sleep for the night.

It reminds me of an incident a couple of months ago at our Parish. We were heading for the doors before Mass when a couple with a few children and a newborn were approached by a lady friend of theirs. She poked fun at them for having a fourth child “in this economy” and mentioned “all that added expense.” Of course, she was wearing a 300 dollar dress, 150 dollar shoes, diamonds around her neck, through her ears and on a couple of her fingers and she drives a Lexus.

I guess you really get what you pay for . . .:imsorry:Brood of vipers, indeed.

 

[Drawmack]

You can’t answer the questions so you hide behind that foolish statement :I will not answer that question untill you answer mine. You sound like someone hiding behind the 5th amendement. Oh , by the way Calvin did also believe in Sola Fide. Study the confessions.

My wife was a 7th Day Adventist, Episcopalian, Mormon and then came into the Christ’s Church this Easter. I had years and years to debate the myriad pastors that would come to our house. My wife , in many ways, was a microcosm of the 40,000 different Protestant denominations. Most of these splintered faiths claim their genesis from their inability to come to an agreement on biblical interpretation. You really fit right in with all of this protestant disunity. You really have given me a very weak argument , or even remained silent about Matthew 25. To paraphrase it for you Christ is telling us, feed my sheep or run the risk of hell. The Fall of Adam and Eve, and I am not trying to trivialize it, took place over a piece of fruit. How much greater are the sins of omission where you and I leave Christ unattended? I thought you are now Catholic, Even the most liberal Catholics that I know believe in corporal works of mercy and the salvific role that they play throughout salvation history. Father Groescel calls Matthew 25:31-46 our final report card.

In post #63 I asked:

We are saved by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean that faith without works is okay either. These are separate issues. Let’s say you have someone who was an atheist their entire life. Then, one minute before they died, they accepted Christ. Is this person saved? Did this person have time to complete any works? So, what saved them? Isn’t this the entire point of the parable with the workers?

You have not even attempted to answer these questions. I will answer your questions about from post #65 only after you address these questions which you have yet to do. When you responded to this post you responded with more questions instead of actually answering the questions I posed to you.

 

[Drawmack]

That it has degenerated into a debate on works vs. faith is also telling of how uncharitable fellow Christians can be to one another while the homeless stand by waiting for a theological ruling so that they can find some work, or food or a safe place to sleep for the night.

Even when it is repeatedly pointed out that this is off topic and someone refuses to drop the issue by claiming that it is on topic.

 

[alaindelong]

I am surprised that it took 5 pages for anyone (Roncalli finally did so) to point out the obvious flaw in the college “guys” experiment.

That it has degenerated into a debate on works vs. faith is also telling of how uncharitable fellow Christians can be to one another while the homeless stand by waiting for a theological ruling so that they can find some work, or food or a safe place to sleep for the night.

It reminds me of an incident a couple of months ago at our Parish. We were heading for the doors before Mass when a couple with a few children and a newborn were approached by a lady friend of theirs. She poked fun at them for having a fourth child “in this economy” and mentioned “all that added expense.” Of course, she was wearing a 300 dollar dress, 150 dollar shoes, diamonds around her neck, through her ears and on a couple of her fingers and she drives a Lexus.

I guess you really get what you pay for . . .:imsorry:Brood of vipers, indeed.

Matthew 25 is all about the homeless. It is so much more than a debate on faith vs works.
It is a pivotal scripture reference that speaks to the heart of all Christians and their need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc…All of us try to do what we can. My wife and I visit the sick and dying at a local nursing home several times a week. and work in Christ’s Hands at our local parish. Many people we know do much more than we do. I try to see the face of our Lord in every person I encounter.

The world calls us to be comfortable. Eat ,drink and be merry for tomorrow you might die. Life does hold that ultimate reality for all of us. God is calling us to holiness. Our most precious possession is our gift of faith in a loving and merciful God. All we will carry to the grave is a simple Rosary ,interwoven through our fingers.

God has written a love poem to each one of us. He gave it to His Son to deliver it to us on the cross. The Holy Spirit has planted that message deep within our heart and it is as real today as it was over 2000 years ago as Christ hung on the cross dying for us. No greater love has any man than to lay down his life for another. The message:" I am insanely in love with you and my mercy knows no boundaries" Our response must be to love our Lord and Savior back with all our heart and soul. Every time we love any homeless person, every time we feed the hungry, or visit the sick we do it to Jesus for the glory of His Kingdom, not our own. “When you do it to the least of these my brethren you do it to me.”

God bless all of you , God love all of you and good goodbye.

 

[Genesius]

What about Calvin? You can’t really claim to understand Protestants without understanding him. Also, please forgive me while I laugh myself silly over you honestly attempting to use an argument from authority (a logical fallacy) because your wife used to be protestant. You don’t even mention the denomination. You cannot, CANNOT, lump all Protestants in together on statements like this.

We are saved by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean that faith without works is okay either. These are separate issues. Let’s say you have someone who was an atheist their entire life. Then, one minute before they died, they accepted Christ. Is this person saved? Did this person have time to complete any works? So, what saved them? Isn’t this the entire point of the parable with the workers?

Yes, you are correct. Believers must do good works. But those good works do not earn someone salvation. Jesus already earned our salvation on the cross. A person who claims to believe but does not good works are just one type of person Christ was talking about when he said “Many will say Lord, Lord. And, I will say I never knew you.” (I’m paraphrasing but you know what verse I’m talking about here.)

This is the basis of the statement Sola Fide. I am saved by my faith alone. However, that faith dictates that I do other things because I have that faith. But, those other things do nothing for my salvation. Jesus already did everything that must be done for my salvation.

This is a case of Catholics and Protestants talking across one another. Protestants say Catholicism is works based and the Catholics rebel at this. Catholics say that Protestants think they don’t have to do good works and Protestants rebel at this. At the crux of the entire issue is that there are Catholics and Protestants who are improperly catechised and can’t properly explain the position of their church and this just exacerbates the issue. Not to mention the lexicalogical issues pointed out by a previous poster.

Finally, I am sorry for taking this thread off topic and would ask that if you really want to discuss the six solas we do it in another thread (better yet six other threads). This thread is about homelessness.

Thank you, Drawmack. I think perhaps it would be a good idea to continue this in another thread. I would however, suggest one thread for each ‘Sola’ since one could talk forever on each one. I choose to stay out of it at this point. I have said all I have to say on the issue. And I’m not saying that out of any sense of animosity. Just that I have said all I can and some people cannot seem to read my entire post. I’m not choosing sides, either. I make no apologies for being Catholic. However, I do believe that there is a communication gap between some Catholics and some Protestants who refuse to recognize semantical differences which I have gone to great lengths trying to explain, particularly concerning “salvation” and what it really is vs. how SOME Catholics define it (sometimes differently than the Church does) and how SOME Protestants define it (i.e. evangelicals vs. Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc.).

Anyway, good luck w/ any future threads.

 

[Genesius]

I feel that I have to apologize to all who have posted, or lurked, here in this thread, for having gotten off topic into some other topic that really has little to do with how we should treat the homeless. I salute those people who conducted the experiment. How many of us would be willing to just go out and become homeless for any amount of time? How many of us would be willing to explore how we, as Christians in general; Non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as well as Catholic parishes, treat the homeless?

I know that there is a wonderful organization that I have personally been involved with, both as a caseworker at The Salvation Army, as well as our own parish community. It’s called the Interfaith Hospitality Network. It is a wonderful ecumenical network of Christian communites coming together to help the homeless, by housing them for a week at a time, providing them with food and spiritual counseling as well. Some homeless families have actually been put on a plan, and given resources to help them become self-sufficient.

Can more be done…absolutely! God’s grace is sufficient for all! I think in this area, we need to quit fighting about “us” (‘good’ Catholics) and “them” (those ‘bad’ Protestants), and recognize the necessity for unity, particularly in these social issues.