How do we understand Jesus descending into Hell?

[Blue_Horizon]

Not the air but the *power of the air *(NABRE):

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once lived following the age of this world,[a] following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.

I think that if you are interpreting “power” as “force” you may be mistaken.
The usual translation is with a capital P and in the plural as in “Satan is the prince of the Powers of the Air.”

In other words “powers” refer to a whole legion of personal demons who inhabit the air and Satan is their ruler.

 

[Vico]

I think that if you are interpreting “power” as “force” you may be mistaken.
The usual translation is with a capital P and in the plural as in “Satan is the prince of the Powers of the Air.”

In other words “powers” refer to a whole legion of personal demons who inhabit the air and Satan is their ruler.

The scripture uses the word translated as power in the singular. “following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient”. The word translated as power is authority (ἐξουσίας) in the Greek version.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Great discussion. This all comes back around to one of the underlying questions that motivated my original post: if the levels of Hell are states of being for spirits/disembodied souls, then going there or not is not a question of taking a day hike, so to speak, but undergoing a change of mind/heart. This means we still have the weird question of understanding what it means to say Christ could enter that state of mind/belief or however we want to characterize it.

I can’t choose to return to a condition of not knowing calculus, nor can I choose to go back to a state of not being in love with my wife. If Christ did not change the frequency of his intellect/will, for lack of better term, how could he be tuned into the level of the others? If he did change the settings, how could he lead them back out?

I’m more after the heart of the question than quibbling over whether it’s “intellect” or “will” or whatever the academics would get excited about. Please notice, too, I’m not making any claims about Christ not being able to do it. Just trying to get a working sense of what it means.

If I wanted to liberate the kindergartners who don’t understand math, and the only way to get in the room would be by not understanding math, what’s my option?

 

[Vico]

Great discussion. This all comes back around to one of the underlying questions that motivated my original post: if the levels of Hell are states of being for spirits/disembodied souls, then going there or not is not a question of taking a day hike, so to speak, but undergoing a change of mind/heart. This means we still have the weird question of understanding what it means to say Christ could enter that state of mind/belief or however we want to characterize it.

I can’t choose to return to a condition of not knowing calculus, nor can I choose to go back to a state of not being in love with my wife. If Christ did not change the frequency of his intellect/will, for lack of better term, how could he be tuned into the level of the others? If he did change the settings, how could he lead them back out?

I’m more after the heart of the question than quibbling over whether it’s “intellect” or “will” or whatever the academics would get excited about. Please notice, too, I’m not making any claims about Christ not being able to do it. Just trying to get a working sense of what it means.

If I wanted to liberate the kindergartners who don’t understand math, and the only way to get in the room would be by not understanding math, what’s my option?

Does it help to know that Jesus communicated with the ***just ***in hades? Catechism 633, 634, 635

633 … “Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. 483”

483 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.

644 … “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” 484

484 1 Pet 4:6.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 …

 

[Neoplatonist]

Does it help to know that Jesus communicated with the ***just ***in hades? Catechism 633, 634, 635

Not really. A difference in degree, I can appreciate, but they are still lacking belief/knowledge that he isn’t, so it doesn’t make sense how he could go there. That I wanted to talk to the good students with high math aptitude in the kindergarten class still doesn’t pass the requirement that I have to not know math in order to go in.

Imagine a singles bar that checks your records before letting you in. Even if I wanted to talk to the people who want to be married and have lived chaste, faithful lives to prepare for marriage and so on; that doesn’t make me single again.

No, I can’t quite believe I just compared Christ saving souls to a singles bar. lol. Hopefully everyone will forgive me in the attempt to find an analogy for “state” of mind/belief/being.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The scripture uses the word translated as power in the singular. “following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient”. The word translated as power is authority (ἐξουσίας) in the Greek version.

I was running with the old Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm) but strictly speaking you seem to be right that the Greek in this verse is in the singular for “Ruler of the Power of the Air”). I don’t think it makes any significant difference to the meaning of the verse and it can be seen from other reference in Ephesians and Collosians that Principalities and Powers are used elsewhere and the “mistranslation” seems little more than making things consistant. It may also be that the singular word also implies a a collection or court anyways. It appears these are stock phrases/concepts in Gnosticism around Ephesus/Collosae that Paul was using to his advantage.

Have a read here about the ancient understanding of “The Powers” of the Air here p122ff:

I am not sure why you think this is of signioficance?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Not really. A difference in degree, I can appreciate, but they are still lacking belief/knowledge that he isn’t, so it doesn’t make sense how he could go there. That I wanted to talk to the good students with high math aptitude in the kindergarten class still doesn’t pass the requirement that I have to not know math in order to go in.

Imagine a singles bar that checks your records before letting you in. Even if I wanted to talk to the people who want to be married and have lived chaste, faithful lives to prepare for marriage and so on; that doesn’t make me single again.

No, I can’t quite believe I just compared Christ saving souls to a singles bar. lol. Hopefully everyone will forgive me in the attempt to find an analogy for “state” of mind/belief/being.

Not quite sure what you are on about but the only “qualification” Jesus needed to “get into” Hades was to die surely?

And as Jesus was also divine by reason of his Divine hypostasis then bingo - the just were in the presence of God (as was Jesus always). Now if one is in the presence of God after death that sounds like heaven or the beatific vision to me. Or have I missed something?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Not quite sure what you are on about but the only “qualification” Jesus needed to “get into” Hades was to die surely?

That can’t be right. They were there because something was missing/lacking. Presumably he provided it, hence they were lifted out of their state of ignorance. Is it your contention that a saint who died tomorrow would go to Hades first? If not, what is different between that person and someone who would go to, say the bosom of Abraham or to Purgatory?

 

[Vico]

Not really. A difference in degree, I can appreciate, but they are still lacking belief/knowledge that he isn’t, so it doesn’t make sense how he could go there. That I wanted to talk to the good students with high math aptitude in the kindergarten class still doesn’t pass the requirement that I have to not know math in order to go in.

Imagine a singles bar that checks your records before letting you in. Even if I wanted to talk to the people who want to be married and have lived chaste, faithful lives to prepare for marriage and so on; that doesn’t make me single again.

No, I can’t quite believe I just compared Christ saving souls to a singles bar. lol. Hopefully everyone will forgive me in the attempt to find an analogy for “state” of mind/belief/being.

So you first asserted that there is a state not a place. We know that the rational souls (of the deceased) are immaterial. So why would a place be required for the rational souls?
Souls may be communicated with in a particular immaterial state of being, that of the just.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

That can’t be right. They were there because something was missing/lacking. Presumably he provided it, hence they were lifted out of their state of ignorance. Is it your contention that a saint who died tomorrow would go to Hades first? If not, what is different between that person and someone who would go to, say the bosom of Abraham or to Purgatory?

Hades by definition is the “place” of the dead. Jesus died. Whats the problem?
Jesus did not go to hell, which by definition is the “place” of those eternally apart from God.

Those in Hades who are justified are “in paradise”. But to “see God” (heaven) surely requires the personal “presence” of God?

Your approach seems to be more gnostic (knowledge) than ontic (being).