How do you address outright lies against the faith?

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Sir_Knight

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When faced with individuals who accuse the Pope of being the anti-Christ, the Jesuits of being his murdering minions who have killed 150,000,000 Christians; how do you address those charges?

Or, should one just walk away leaving those charges unanswered so that when others who know nothing about the Catholic faith read those lies and do not see a counter-arguement, will come away with a false view of the Catholic Church?
 
Anyone who makes this sort of claim is burdened with the obligation to prove it. Simply ask them to provide you with the evidence (preferably documentary) upon which they base these statements and that you will consider it and talk further with them after they have done so.

That way I think you let them know there is more than one side to the story and that you aren’t prepared to agree with them, and at the same time aren’t unnecessarily and pointlessly offending them.
 
In my view, such people are akin to those who believe fervently that there are space aliens among us. There’s not much you can do to change their minds. Let them read Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, numerous apologetic tracts, the Church fathers, Church history. None of it will faze them, because in their mind all that is just part of the vast Catholic propaganda machine.

They have, to a certain extent, lost touch with reality. Unfortunately they are probably more numerous than space alien believers.
 
Facts facts facts…
  1. When confronted with what you know to be a lie, simply say “Prove it”. Make 'em show you their sources and prove it to be true and call 'em on it up front. “If you can’t prove what you have alleged then it must be false. Why would an honest person allege something like that?”
  2. When it’s really ridiculous, give facts that show that they are totally out to lunch. Don’t say a word but just lay it out there and say nothing more than, “Oh really?”
  3. Don’t support any ministry that uses such propaganda by participating in their forums. Our efforts make their boards appear more active and that makes them more attractive. That’s one reason that I stay off of the more popular a-C boards.
 
Sir_Knight said:
When faced with individuals who accuse the Pope of being the anti-Christ, the Jesuits of being his murdering minions who have killed 150,000,000 Christians; how do you address those charges?

Or, should one just walk away leaving those charges unanswered so that when others who know nothing about the Catholic faith read those lies and do not see a counter-argument, will come away with a false view of the Catholic Church?
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C&P from This.
 
I like to point people to secular sources that are not defenders of the faith and that have no axe to grind against the Catholic Church.

The false accusation you stated in your post sounds like a reference to the Inquisition. On this subject I refer them to Henry Kamen’s The Spanish Inquisition: a Historical Revision. Kamen is an atheist and no particular friend of the Catholic Church. He gives a very objective and balanced view of the Inquisition and shreds the absurdities that have grown to legendary proportions and are now accepted as facts by those that hate the Church.

If the opponents refuse to read the book then they are not interested in the truth. Kamen is not the only scholar that has pointed out the gross exagerations and nonsense that has been published about the Inquisitions. The data is there if someone is interested in the truth. Likewise, Protestants had their own Inquisitions and are guilty of the same kinds of offenses that they level at Catholics. Henry VIII of England did far more to Catholics in thirty years than the Spanish Inquisition did in 400 years.

The people you are talking to need an education. If they are open minded and seeking the truth it’s available.
 
Church_Militant said:
  1. Don’t support any ministry that uses such propaganda by participating in their forums. Our efforts make their boards appear more active and that makes them more attractive. That’s one reason that I stay off of the more popular a-C boards.
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I sort of have a problem with leaving these lies unanswered because someone who knows nothing about the Catholic faith may read it and seeing no arguement against it, may walk away thinking that it is true.
 
Sir_Knight said:
I sort of have a problem with leaving these lies unanswered because someone who knows nothing about the Catholic faith may read it and seeing no argument against it, may walk away thinking that it is true.
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They know where to find us if they want the facts Brother! Leave 'em a link and walk…🙂
 
Sir_Knight said:
When faced with individuals who accuse the Pope of being the anti-Christ, the Jesuits of being his murdering minions who have killed 150,000,000 Christians; how do you address those charges?

Or, should one just walk away leaving those charges unanswered so that when others who know nothing about the Catholic faith read those lies and do not see a counter-arguement, will come away with a false view of the Catholic Church?
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I think it is best to take responsibility, and admit the truth. Yes, there were many popes who were a dismal example of the Christian life. It is further proof that God can preserve the truth of His Church in spite of our fallen nature. Jesuits and other inquisitioners did, in fact, kill not only Protestants, but Jews, and Pagans, and anyone they did not think was in agreement or submissio nto them. However, this behavior did not reflect the teaching of Christ, and fortunately, is not taught by the Church.
 
guanophore said:
I think it is best to take responsibility, and admit the truth. Yes, there were many popes
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who were a dismal example of the Christian life. It is further proof that God can preserve the truth of His Church in spite of our fallen nature. Jesuits and other inquisitioners did, in fact, kill not only Protestants, but Jews, and Pagans, and anyone they did not think was in agreement or submissio nto them. However, this behavior did not reflect the teaching of Christ, and fortunately, is not taught by the Church.I don’t think that 3 or 4 qualifies as “many”. Do you have documentation of these Jesuit misdeeds, because I’ve never seen "em. There may have been individuals but you paint with too broad a brush I think.

As I said before…facts.
 
The crux of the issue is distinguishing those who want to believe these things, and the genuinely misinformed, in my opinion.
However, if you become defensive and deny the church and Christianity has never done any wrong then you lose your audience and your credibility.
To give an example, I challenged a virulent atheist on another forum when he claimed Christianity had killed more than the Holocaust, and it became very clear that his figures were more or less plucked from the ether and his credibility was flushed down the pan!
 
Sir_Knight said:
When faced with individuals who accuse the Pope of being the anti-Christ, the Jesuits of being his murdering minions who have killed 150,000,000 Christians; how do you address those charges?

Or, should one just walk away leaving those charges unanswered so that when others who know nothing about the Catholic faith read those lies and do not see a counter-arguement, will come away with a false view of the Catholic Church?
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Ask for the evidence. If it turns out to be true, then simply say man sins, but that doesn’t make the Church any less true.
 
150 million is definitely wrong. The Dawkinsite I was debating with said 80 million worldwide had been killed by Christianity but his figures fell to pieces - just look at the figures for the entire world population for most of that period and it has to be wrong! Plus he was including the numbers of Native Americans etc killed by measles etc which they had no resistance to - hardly the fault of Christianity per se.
 
Sir_Knight said:
When faced with individuals who accuse the Pope of being the anti-Christ, the Jesuits of being his murdering minions who have killed 150,000,000 Christians; how do you address those charges?
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Point out that 150M is have the population of the US. Anywhere in the world, this kind of massacre would involve basically the removal of entire nations. Further note that our most prolific serial killers have only managed to kill a couple dozen people, and you’ve got yourself a couple light-hearted refutations of such a number.
 
I think it is rather appropriate that I came across this thread today.

This week has been quite depressing for the reason that my current religion teacher is incompetent when it comes to Church dogma and history. I always interject, correcting her. I’m beginning to annoy myself, and am beginning to feel really quite horrible having to correct her several times during each class. What’s most concerning is that she is total oblivious to any error she makes.

How are these incompetents allowed to teach the faith (whole or in part)? They don’t have the right to teach something they are ignorant of, and moreover, I would argue they shouldn’t be teaching it at all unless they prescribe to what they’re teaching. A mechanic wouldn’t teach biology unless he was also a biologist, would he? I don’t think a veterinarian would be one to teach carpentry either, unless he’s learned how to work with wood. So why then do we have idiots teaching about the Catholic faith (and other faiths as well) in total ignorance and with secular bias?

I’m just about read to implode.
 
Sir_Knight said:
When faced with individuals who accuse the Pope of being the anti-Christ, the Jesuits of being his murdering minions who have killed 150,000,000 Christians; how do you address those charges?

Or, should one just walk away leaving those charges unanswered so that when others who know nothing about the Catholic faith read those lies and do not see a counter-arguement, will come away with a false view of the Catholic Church?
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Those who spread such propaganda? Slam them, hard.

And try to refute for those listening.
 
Church_Militant said:
I don’t think that 3 or 4 qualifies as “many”. Do you have documentation of these Jesuit misdeeds, because I’ve never seen "em. There may have been individuals but you paint with too broad a brush I think.

As I said before…facts.
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I know, I don’t have my history of popes online and have not had time to convert any of it. So, for wont of time, here is a site:

christianchronicler.com/history1/counter_reformation.html

"The Pope approved the order’s (Jesuit) formation in 1540 and made responsible only to himself. No Bishop or Archbishop could supervise Jesuits, they answered only to the Pope. Jesuits became the church’s militia for recovering Europe from heresy. Jesuits formed the backbone of the Inquisition. Contemporaries described them as fanatics who beheaded kings if it furthered the church’s cause. They’re probably right! "

When the medieval catholic history books speak about the popes and jesuits and inquisitors being “extremely zealous for the faith” as many of them do, they are speaking about this “off with their heads” way of life. Didn’t we just go over this on killing “heretics” St. Thomas Aquinas recommended it.

Here is a Catholic source you might like better?
radtrad.blogspot.com/2005/08/octave-of-st-dominic.html
 
Church_Militant said:
I don’t think that 3 or 4 qualifies as “many”. Do you have documentation of these Jesuit misdeeds, because I’ve never seen "em. There may have been individuals but you paint with too broad a brush I think.

As I said before…facts.
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As I am sure you are aware, history is written by the victors, and the way it is written says as much about the author as it does the story. I am trying to supplement many years of protestant history with catholic sources. The Catholic encyclopedia has it:

newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm#IIA

if you “find on this page” and enter number of victims there are some there. I think a number of deaths occurred under the guise of “inquisition” that were politcally motivated, never reported, and not originated by the Church.
 
jack_hawkins said:
150 million is definitely wrong. The Dawkinsite I was debating with said 80 million worldwide had been killed by Christianity but his figures fell to pieces - just look at the figures for the entire world population for most of that period and it has to be wrong! Plus he was including the numbers of Native Americans etc killed by measles etc which they had no resistance to - hardly the fault of Christianity per se.
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No, I am faulting the so called Catholics and other Christians who had no respect for the native cultures. they did not even consider them “people” for the most part. Although there were some that preached to them (obviously demonstrating a belief that they had souls and could be saved) there was massive slaughter in the “name of Christendom”. Early pilgrims, settlers, and land grabbers deliberately infected natives with themselves, or objects such as blankets that they thought were contaminated by smallpox in order to wipe out tribes.
 
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