How do you answer this question?

[ynotzap]

So you do take that saying literally?
I don;t see how you can take it literally if you believe that baptized babies go to heaven.

It’s taken literally because of the context of the situation. Why would some walk away if they thought that Jesus didn’t mean what He said? They know He did mean what He said. And why didn’t the Apostles walk away, because they knew that He was God, and He had the words of everlasting life, and anything is possible to God. When the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, they still retain the accidents of bread and wine (taste, appearance, color etc of bread and wine), but the substance is changed. We take Christ at His words, and it is a Mystery of Faith. His words are not said as just a remembrance, or that bread and wine are just a likeness, but actually changed. This doctrine is explained by St.Thomas Aquinas but it is difficult to understand unless one has a background in Metaphysics and Ontology. Baptized babies reap the blessings of Christ when He shed His life, body and blood so that by this sacrifice mankind could have access to Heaven. I f the baby had lived and matured it could then partake in the graces of this Mystery and grow even more in sanctity. The baby was made holy, consecrated to God but it hadn’t achieved greater sanctity by the practice of the cardinal virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity. Heaven admits of degrees of sanctity. But the baby receives happiness and salvation by Baptism through Christ.

 

[ynotzap]

How can you be free if it is impossible for you to choose sin? If you can be free in that sense, then why did not God make us on earth free in that way?

Just because the soul with it’s powers of intelligence and free will are in Heaven, it hasn’t lost it’s power to choose (volition), and in Heaven there is no evil to choose, only good. The absence of evil does not mean that the will lost its power to choose, and as I stated before the will has attained what it was created for the Eternal Good, God, it can not desire more because all of it’s desires for happiness are filled

We are tested in our fidelity, love and obedience to God, and we make choices either good or evil When choosing evil, we perceive evil as some good, otherwise we wouldn’t choose it, but this lesser good, or an intrinsically evil act is against the commandments of God. To love God we must be obedient, faithful to His will for us. The choice to commit an evil or good act depends on our freedom of will, and we can deliberately make evil choices like the devil. If we make good choices even if we suffer for making them, we share in the merits of Jesus Christ, and gain Heaven. Life is a test, and not our permanent home, it is a spiritual battlefield where we are proven

 

[Tomdstone]

It’s taken literally because of the context of the situation. Why would some walk away if they thought that Jesus didn’t mean what He said? They know He did mean what He said. And why didn’t the Apostles walk away, because they knew that He was God, and He had the words of everlasting life, and anything is possible to God. When the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, they still retain the accidents of bread and wine (taste, appearance, color etc of bread and wine), but the substance is changed. We take Christ at His words, and it is a Mystery of Faith. His words are not said as just a remembrance, or that bread and wine are just a likeness, but actually changed. This doctrine is explained by St.Thomas Aquinas but it is difficult to understand unless one has a background in Metaphysics and Ontology. Baptized babies reap the blessings of Christ when He shed His life, body and blood so that by this sacrifice mankind could have access to Heaven. I f the baby had lived and matured it could then partake in the graces of this Mystery and grow even more in sanctity. The baby was made holy, consecrated to God but it hadn’t achieved greater sanctity by the practice of the cardinal virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity. Heaven admits of degrees of sanctity. But the baby receives happiness and salvation by Baptism through Christ.

The quotation was this: Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
Baptized babies do not take Holy communion in the Roman Catholic Church. And yet they will go to heaven. So they have life in them, even though they do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood.
So the passage is not taken literally.

 

[Tomdstone]

in Heaven there is no evil to choose, only good.

Satan chose evil while in heaven.

 

[Tomdstone]

Not free to chose… eh I disargee with the presentation.

So if you know me well then in certain situations you can know “who I am” ergo what I will do. By the tine we are fully admitted into heaven, we theoretically could sin just as I COULD act contrary to myself. But I won’t act contrary to myself because it is not ny nature.

Also, I am still of the belief that many sins are not a factor in heaven making the sins that even “good” people struggle with irrelevant. If heaven is devoid of some of the things it is supposed to be, I would never sin

Well then, if you can be free and have free will, but not sin, why didn’t God make it so on earth so that men could be free and have free will and still not sin?

 

[ynotzap]

Satan chose evil while in heaven.

and like lightening he fell into hell, and was allowed to roam the earth like a roaring lion seeking to devour men. Satan was instantly cast out of Heaven, there is no “while…”

 

[ynotzap]

The quotation was this: Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
Baptized babies do not take Holy communion in the Roman Catholic Church. And yet they will go to heaven. So they have life in them, even though they do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood.
So the passage is not taken literally.

there are many references to the “Bread of Life” in the bible referring to the Body of Christ reinforcing the Transubstantiation. "Unless ye be born again by water and the spirit, ye shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven " paraphrased. Baptism is the first requisite for salvation, even before Communion. The baby died before it could learn about Communion, or grow spiritually, to be fed the graces that come from Communion, to continue to grow in holiness. Baptism is the beginning of salvation, a person is in the spiritual infancy, not yet grown, there is further spiritual development awaiting a living person.

 

[PRmerger]

Protestants say that Roman Catholics do not understand that the Eucharist should be a metaphor and not taken to be the literal Body and Blood.

This is the Protestant ONLY error again that keeps rearing its deleterious head.

The Catholic Both/And is at work here.

Not sure why folks seem to inject this “ONLY” or “ALONE” in places where it has no business being.

The fact that there is some poetry in the Word doesn’t mean that the words of God are poetry ONLY.

Sheesh.

 

[LethalMouse]

Well then, if you can be free and have free will, but not sin, why didn’t God make it so on earth so that men could be free and have free will and still not sin?

Who says we can’t? Just because someone does not do something doesn’t mean they can’t…

I have never been to Mexico, I could have and can… but I have not and am not right now.

 

[ynotzap]

Well then, if you can be free and have free will, but not sin, why didn’t God make it so on earth so that men could be free and have free will and still not sin?

Sin is to go against the will of God, if one could not go against the will of God, then his will is not free. As long as we are on earth, we can go against the will of God in doing so we can not be united to God on earth or in Heaven. Those in Heaven are there because they did God’s will while on earth by their free choice. In Heaven, they are there because they chose to be there. They are rewarded for the proper use of their free will while on earth. If they couldn’t make that choice, their wills would not be free. It is still free in Heaven where sin does not exist. Earth is not Heaven, once in Heaven always in Heaven eternally, and in bliss. In that state who would desire to sin, that desire would be non-existent, but the will still would be free. We are not robots, but free acting intelligent human beings, and that doesn’t change because we are in Heaven, free will is part of our nature because that is the way God made us. He does not force us to love Him, but wants us to love Him freely, by our own choice.

 

[PRmerger]

Well then, if you can be free and have free will, but not sin, why didn’t God make it so on earth so that men could be free and have free will and still not sin?

God did do that.

Our first parents. They just chose to sin.

And ruined it for the rest of us. :sad_yes:

 

[kdbueno]

The universe preserves us from the error of committing ourselves to be divine.

Scholarly St. Thomas Aquinas, approves us that his theology is based on the primer evidence, that the possibility understand celestial truth is possible.

 

[Tomdstone]

and like lightening he fell into hell, and was allowed to roam the earth like a roaring lion seeking to devour men. Satan was instantly cast out of Heaven, there is no “while…”

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:7-9.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saying there is sin and stain in heaven?

Or are you saying that the good thief was purged of his sin prior to heaven?

It seems so because how else would an unbaptised baby get into heaven?

Tom, would you mind addressing the above?

You do believe that there is sin and stain in heaven?

Remember, the document you cited asserts we can hope that unbaptized babies are in heaven, but due to the fact that they have the stain of OS, we cannot be ascertained of this.

 

[Tomdstone]

there are many references to the “Bread of Life” in the bible referring to the Body of Christ reinforcing the Transubstantiation. "Unless ye be born again by water and the spirit, ye shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven " paraphrased. Baptism is the first requisite for salvation, even before Communion. The baby died before it could learn about Communion, or grow spiritually, to be fed the graces that come from Communion, to continue to grow in holiness. Baptism is the beginning of salvation, a person is in the spiritual infancy, not yet grown, there is further spiritual development awaiting a living person.

So it is not literally true that "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” because a baptized baby who dies will enter heaven without taking Holy Communion.

 

[PRmerger]

So it is not literally true that "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” because a baptized baby who dies will enter heaven without taking Holy Communion.

Firstly, what you are proposing is a nonsequitur. “There may be exceptions” does not logically equate to “not literally true”.

Something can be literally true and also have exceptions.

For example, it is literally true that human sacrifice is bad. However, there was one human sacrifice that was…good.

Secondly, you have not correctly articulated Catholic teaching on the fate of unbaptized babies.

Please read the document (which YOU cited, ironically), for better clarification.

And, if you continue to assert that unbaptized babies go to heaven you will be reported for intentionally misrepresenting this.

 

[ynotzap]

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:7-9.

Interesting. Jesus, God witnessed all of this, not only witnessed all of this, but as God sustained the whole situation. He did say that Satan fell as lightening from the sky, which to me is almost instantaineous. To reconcile this event as Jesus witnessed, with a longer battle in Heaven between the fallen angels and the good ones seems to be a contradiction, like other biblical situations. There do exist apparent contradictions, but not real ones, so I don’t think we will ever know the exact answers in this life.

I do know that the angels wouldn’t need material weapons to fight, but would use the weapons of truth to counter the lies of the opponent. In that sense, time is not involved as we think of it in a human way. After all this was a spiritual battle not restricted to time, and it’s possible it just happened suddenly, for the lack of a better expression, but had to be described in human terms which involve the concept of time. IMHO Revelation contains a lot of symbolism to describe a spiritual truth. I think the words of Jesus takes precedence in this case.

 

[Michael19682]

God impels us to righteousness…There would not be growth in sanctity if we didn’t have a capacity (potential) to grow (act) The soul is not it’s own power. and God is the mover of the will to sin or to practice virtue,

We already know that when we act righteously it is God acting through us. You are totally wrong in saying God moves us equally to sin and virtue. God does not animate sin. Period.
God has given our souls the power of free will.
As long as someone persists in attempting to bend the reality of freewill to accommodate personal sin making it a desired necessity there will repeatedly appear fractures in that someones ability to see Unity, and, this will manifest as all manner of convoluted judgment, and endless, fruitless complication of simplicity.

 

[ynotzap]

We already know that when we act righteously it is God acting through us. You are totally wrong in saying God moves us equally to sin and virtue. God does not animate sin. Period.
God has given our souls the power of free will.
As long as someone persists in attempting to bend the reality of freewill to accommodate personal sin making it a desired necessity there will repeatedly appear fractures in that someones ability to see Unity, and, this will manifest as all manner of convoluted judgment, and endless, fruitless complication of simplicity.

You have misunderstood my statement about God moving the will to sin. God moves the will under any circumstance, He is the power of the will and all motion. He does not will us to sin, that is our choice, but He sees our choices through. If He didn’t move the will, we couldn’t make the choice to sin, or to virtue. I speak of God as the source of all motion when the will moves one way or another, it is by God’s power. So there is no real conflict if understood correctly. I tried to be explicit, but apparently not explicit enough.

 

[PRmerger]

You have misunderstood my statement about God moving the will to sin. God moves the will under any circumstance, He is the power of the will and all motion. He does not will us to sin, that is our choice, but He sees our choices through. If He didn’t move the will, we couldn’t make the choice to sin, or to virtue. I speak of God as the source of all motion when the will moves one way or another, it is by God’s power. So there is no real conflict if understood correctly. I tried to be explicit, but apparently not explicit enough.

Yeah–I think you’re presenting the case for God’s antecedent will and Michael was responding as if you were presenting the case for God’s consequent will.