How do you break the "It's between me and God" shutdown tactic?

[master_catholic]

I have a sister-in-law who was born Catholic, supposedly “practices” her faith but is obstinate in taking birth-control while attending Sunday mass (and receiving communion).

It seems her only retort in the end is “kpeople:** It’s between me and God!**” as if it were the silver bullet that satisfies all debate. I already countered the excuse with whatever spur-of-the-moment logic came to my head, but I wonder how I can philosophically/scripturally pin-point this one from the start gate? I have a few ideas, but I’d like to hear from the CAF too.

The only other retort, which is the classic “Don’t judge,” she didn’t even bother to say to me. She learned ahead of time from my wife that to use that at me would be as effective as a gun that pops a “bang” flag. She says that excuse to my wife but not to me.

Thanks in advance!

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Preliminary question - how do you know your sister-in-law is on birth control? I’m sorry, that just sorta bugs me out. I wouldn’t even dare to ask my sister-in-laws that kind of question (though granted, they have 10 children between them so it isn’t much of an issue ). It’s a little bit… you know with boundaries and what-not.

Anyway, I think on the ultimate level it most certainly is between her and God. There’s only so much you can say. Especially as a brother-in-law, it really doesn’t sound appropriate for you to be getting so involved in your brother’s sex life. I know that’s not what you want to hear and I sympathize but there’s not much you can do here besides being firm when the issue does arise. You could, for example, bring this issue to your Pastor or another Priest in the parish, but I fear that sneaking around like that would probably not work AND it would be harmful to your relationship with your family to boot. I’m sorry.

 

[funion987]

I guess I would agree with the above poster in that too much persistance might do more harm than good. Really the most you can do is present the magisterium’s teaching and a Catholic’s responsibilities, and then pray, pray, pray.

I’ll pray for her, too.

 

[master_catholic]

Preliminary question - how do you know your sister-in-law is on birth control? I’m sorry, that just sorta bugs me out. I wouldn’t even dare to ask my sister-in-laws that kind of question (though granted, they have 10 children between them so it isn’t much of an issue ). It’s a little bit… you know with boundaries and what-not.

Let’s just say sisters tell their secrets to each other, and subsequently tell their husbands.
Furthermore, the discussion was among just her, my wife, and myself - and it was brought up by her as a tangent discussion from some other initial faith-related topic.

Anyway, I think on the ultimate level it most certainly is between her and God. There’s only so much you can say. Especially as a brother-in-law, it really doesn’t sound appropriate for you to be getting so involved in your brother’s sex life. I know that’s not what you want to hear and I sympathize but there’s not much you can do here besides being firm when the issue does arise. You could, for example, bring this issue to your Pastor or another Priest in the parish, but I fear that sneaking around like that would probably not work AND it would be harmful to your relationship with your family to boot. I’m sorry.

The thing is it’s used as an excuse to just shut down debate, and in no way did I make enough of my points known in-between her “verbal walls of text.” There is a lot she doesn’t really know, and when I’m put on the spot, I have to tell her the truth. Can’t pretend I didn’t hear things when the holy spirit may have placed my in situations for a reason.

I will not deny Christ (i.e the TRUTH) before men, and since I was included in such a conversation for once (after knowing her for 5 years) I said what needed to be said, as a duty-bound Catholic. I’m sad to say that I believe the ignorance on her part is willful - you have to sometimes turn up the heat (charitably) with some people who are willfully obstinate - out of CHARITY for them and of their souls.

 

[master_catholic]

I guess I would agree with the above poster in that too much persistance might do more harm than good. Really the most you can do is present the magisterium’s teaching and a Catholic’s responsibilities, and then pray, pray, pray.

I’ll pray for her, too.

That’s actually what I’m trying to do, more or less. I don’t think she really knows well enough or has been told to her yet what is needed to be told.
I haven’t really done my part with her in that aspect. Her excuse is a roadblock that I have to help remove so that the Holy Spirit can help my sister-in-law. I need a rebuttal to her excuse to help get it out of the way.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Let’s just say sisters tell their secrets to each other, and subsequently tell their husbands.

That couldn’t have made her too happy with your wife. Wow.

The thing is it’s used as an excuse to just shut down debate, and in no way did I make enough of my points known in-between her “verbal walls of text.”

It seems like a discussion not worth having. Be clear, concise, and firm as best you can. That’s all you can do.

I know you would like to take out a shillelagh and pound it home. Been there, know exactly how you feel. But if she’s not willing to have a really thoughtful conversation, the best you can do is speak your peace and then retire.

By all means, keep trying, but do so within reason. I’m saying this out of concern for you. You try to run headfirst into a brick wall too many times and you’re going to walk away with a concussion.

There is a lot she doesn’t really know, and when I’m put on the spot, I have to tell her the truth. Can’t pretend I didn’t hear things

Sure. There’s nothing wrong with that.

the holy spirit may have placed my in situations for a reason.

I get it, I do. But I would advise caution in thinking this way.

I will not deny Christ (i.e the TRUTH) before men, and since I was included in such a conversation for once (after knowing her for 5 years) I said what needed to be said, as a duty-bound Catholic.

Great.

I’m sad to say that I believe the ignorance on her part is willful - you have to sometimes turn up the heat (charitably) with some people who are willfully obstinate - out of CHARITY for them and of their souls.

I will pray for you and her.

Edit: After seeing your most recently reply, Master Catholic, I would say if you’re going to be having this conversation again, make it perfectly clear that you 1) love her, 2) are concerned for her soul, 3) even if you believe she understands Catholic teaching on this matter and rejects it, do your best to act as if she just doesn’t understand the teaching.

Finally, after you speak your initial peace - tread lightly. Very lightly.

 

[DJK100]

I have a sister-in-law who was born Catholic, supposedly “practices” her faith but is obstinate in taking birth-control while attending Sunday mass (and receiving communion).

It seems her only retort in the end is “kpeople:** It’s between me and God!**” as if it were the silver bullet that satisfies all debate. I already countered the excuse with whatever spur-of-the-moment logic came to my head, but I wonder how I can philosophically/scripturally pin-point this one from the start gate? I have a few ideas, but I’d like to hear from the CAF too.

The only other retort, which is the classic “Don’t judge,” she didn’t even bother to say to me. She learned ahead of time from my wife that to use that at me would be as effective as a gun that pops a “bang” flag. She says that excuse to my wife but not to me.

Thanks in advance!

I would say that ultimately it will be between her and God. However, God wanted us to interceed with one another and care for each other. You would be remiss if you didn’t get a chance to explain the Church’s and God’s revealed truth to her because it is your duty as a Catholic to help someone who may be making a grave error. Tell her after you persent your case you will leave her be because then it is up to her to decided how she wants to proceed.

 

[master_catholic]

That couldn’t have made her too happy with your wife. Wow.

Please, this is getting a bit off topic. But I will say that the info exchange is mutual and delt with appropriately as Catholics.

It seems like a discussion not worth having. Be clear, concise, and firm as best you can. That’s all you can do.

That’s more or less what I’ve decided to actually do: “This is the choice you have made, and so - according to the Church - these are the consequences of your choice.”

I just have make sure that I prayerfully have said enough of what needs to be said, to avoid any misunderstandings. I was sort-of cut off and it wasn’t satisfying.

I know you would like to take out a shillelagh and pound it home. Been there, know exactly how you feel. But if she’s not willing to have a really thoughtful conversation, the best you can do is speak your peace and then retire.

By all means, keep trying, but do so within reason. I’m saying this out of concern for you. You try to run headfirst into a brick wall too many times and you’re going to walk away with a concussion.

I think the only difference we’re having is WHEN to stop, not IF to stop. Otherwise I do agree with you - more or less.

I will pray for you and her.

Thank you. I will too.

Edit: After seeing your most recently reply, Master Catholic, I would say if you’re going to be having this conversation again, make it perfectly clear that you 1) love her, 2) are concerned for her soul, 3) even if you believe she understands Catholic teaching on this matter and rejects it, do your best to act as if she just doesn’t understand the teaching.

on 1 & 2.
Could you please elaborate what you mean in the bold? Thank you.

Finally, after you speak your initial peace - tread lightly. Very lightly.

Key words: meekness & humility. “I’ve only told you what I must - nothing more.”

 

[master_catholic]

I would say that ultimately it will be between her and God. However, God wanted us to interceed with one another and care for each other. You would be remiss if you didn’t get a chance to explain the Church’s and God’s revealed truth to her because it is your duty as a Catholic to help someone who may be making a grave error.

That’s why I hope that there is a round 2 at some point (and in good conditions) - I don’t think I had enough of a chance to say things in it’s entirety to avoid misunderstandings.

Tell her after you persent your case you will leave her be because then it is up to her to decided how she wants to proceed.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[graceandglory]

I have a sister-in-law who was born Catholic, supposedly “practices” her faith but is obstinate in taking birth-control while attending Sunday mass (and receiving communion).

It seems her only retort in the end is “kpeople:** It’s between me and God!**” as if it were the silver bullet that satisfies all debate. I already countered the excuse with whatever spur-of-the-moment logic came to my head, but I wonder how I can philosophically/scripturally pin-point this one from the start gate? I have a few ideas, but I’d like to hear from the CAF too.

The only other retort, which is the classic “Don’t judge,” she didn’t even bother to say to me. She learned ahead of time from my wife that to use that at me would be as effective as a gun that pops a “bang” flag. She says that excuse to my wife but not to me.

Thanks in advance!

www.onemoresoul.com

Contraception Why Not?catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html by Dr. Janet Smith is the best tool for converting this mindset.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have a sister-in-law who was born Catholic, supposedly “practices” her faith but is obstinate in taking birth-control while attending Sunday mass (and receiving communion).

Taking birth-control while attending Sunday mass?

What on earth do you Catholics get up to?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Please, this is getting a bit off topic. But I will say that the info exchange is mutual and delt with appropriately as Catholics.

Well…OK, we’ll say no more of the matter.

on 1 & 2.
Could you please elaborate what you mean in the bold? Thank you.

Sure.

Re: “do your best to act as if she just doesn’t understand the teaching.”

Since I don’t know you personally, I can only speak to how I would be approaching the conversation. So if my advice works for you, take it. If not, don’t.

Basically, I think if I went into this conversation with the assumption that she was just being obstinate and willfully defying Church teaching, I would bring a not-so-helpful attitude to the conversation. I would be uncharitable.

However, if I approached the conversation with the assumption that she just didn’t understand the points I was raising earlier, I would have a different kind of attitude. I would have the attitude that, “boy, I apparently didn’t get my point through to her before. It’s possible that I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining the problems with her behavior. So this time, I’m going to do a better job of expressing myself.”

It’s really just about being charitable. I would assume the best about her intentions. I would assume that she does want to follow Church teachings. If I didn’t, I probably wouldn’t be helpful… I would just have a combative attitude that would turn her off.

I hope I’ve explained that well, I found it a bit tough to explain online…

Also, even if you can’t convince her, you should be contented with yourself that you have spoken with conviction on this matter. Think of it this way - even if you don’t ultimately convince her to change her ways, there’s a chance that your words could have an impact down the line. Perhaps someone else will come along later and drop the “straw that breaks the camel’s back.” You never know.

 

[admonsta]

“It’s between me and God.”
(“Oh? So what does God say to you about this?”)

Do they mean “I’ve prayed about it and I have discerned I’m doing the right thing. In my personal situation it’s different, therefore the usually illicit behaviour is excused.”

I have friends who say this to me. It’s frustrating because they are hiding behind a supposed careful discernment to justify wrong behaviour, and it’s hard to argue that their discernment is flawed.

One thing about the Catholic Church is that it is very communal. We are all subject to the same rules - they apply to all of us, not some of us individually. To ignore the common rules and claim that God accepts a different standard from each of us is straight out of the handbook of moral relativism and if true, none of us could be certain that we are interpreting our discernment right, so we could be hearing God’s voice wrong. This is my code for “we can make up our own standard and claim it is from God”.

Or perhaps people use the phrase to mean “I’ll do what I’m doing and explain myself to God when the time comes and I’m sure He’ll understand”. Dangerous but easy to fall into because God doesn’t give you warnings. He relies on His church to teach His morals, but the warning from a peer can be brushed off as not from God. Remember the parable of the landowner? God doesn’t speak directly, He sends messengers, He has a gentle voice and uses our conscience to guide us.

It is in our best interests to know the truth and to follow it, not to take chances in this life that God will understand our disobedience.

 

[sw85]

God has made clear that we’re all in this together, so to speak, so…

Really, you are right when you called this a “shutdown tactic.” That’s what it is: she is hardening your heart against you. When someone does this with me, I disengage from the discussion. To persist would just be to waste time and probably hurt feelings.

 

[Newbie2]

One cannot debate someone else who is unwilling to engage in the debate.

However, a pointed question “food for thought” might be asking if one believes if God set up his Church her on earth for our benefit, and if so, does one believe that what the Church teaches is God’s truth.

 

[Lujack]

I think you got the word right-“shutdown tactic”. She considers it a personal matter and no longer wishes to discuss it. You don’t try to “break” people like that.

Now at that point, you really have some choices-you can let her change the subject and end it, keep pressing and risk jeopardizing your relationship, or end it of your own volition.

You can’t force someone to debate something they don’t wish to debate.

 

[master_catholic]

Sure.

Re: “do your best to act as if she just doesn’t understand the teaching.”

Since I don’t know you personally, I can only speak to how I would be approaching the conversation. So if my advice works for you, take it. If not, don’t.

Basically, I think if I went into this conversation with the assumption that she was just being obstinate and willfully defying Church teaching, I would bring a not-so-helpful attitude to the conversation. I would be uncharitable.

However, if I approached the conversation with the assumption that she just didn’t understand the points I was raising earlier, I would have a different kind of attitude. I would have the attitude that, “boy, I apparently didn’t get my point through to her before. It’s possible that I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining the problems with her behavior. So this time, I’m going to do a better job of expressing myself.”

It’s really just about being charitable. I would assume the best about her intentions. I would assume that she does want to follow Church teachings. If I didn’t, I probably wouldn’t be helpful… I would just have a combative attitude that would turn her off.

I hope I’ve explained that well, I found it a bit tough to explain online…

Also, even if you can’t convince her, you should be contented with yourself that you have spoken with conviction on this matter. Think of it this way - even if you don’t ultimately convince her to change her ways, there’s a chance that your words could have an impact down the line. Perhaps someone else will come along later and drop the “straw that breaks the camel’s back.” You never know.

Thank you for clarifying

 

[master_catholic]

“It’s between me and God.”
(“Oh? So what does God say to you about this?”)

Do they mean “I’ve prayed about it and I have discerned I’m doing the right thing. In my personal situation it’s different, therefore the usually illicit behaviour is excused.”

I have friends who say this to me. It’s frustrating because they are hiding behind a supposed careful discernment to justify wrong behaviour, and it’s hard to argue that their discernment is flawed.

One thing about the Catholic Church is that it is very communal. We are all subject to the same rules - they apply to all of us, not some of us individually. To ignore the common rules and claim that God accepts a different standard from each of us is straight out of the handbook of moral relativism and if true, none of us could be certain that we are interpreting our discernment right, so we could be hearing God’s voice wrong. This is my code for “we can make up our own standard and claim it is from God”.

Or perhaps people use the phrase to mean “I’ll do what I’m doing and explain myself to God when the time comes and I’m sure He’ll understand”. Dangerous but easy to fall into because God doesn’t give you warnings. He relies on His church to teach His morals, but the warning from a peer can be brushed off as not from God. Remember the parable of the landowner? God doesn’t speak directly, He sends messengers, He has a gentle voice and uses our conscience to guide us.

It is in our best interests to know the truth and to follow it, not to take chances in this life that God will understand our disobedience.

Very good points - BRAVO!! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[master_catholic]

God has made clear that we’re all in this together, so to speak, so…

Really, you are right when you called this a “shutdown tactic.” That’s what it is: she is hardening your heart against you. When someone does this with me, I disengage from the discussion. To persist would just be to waste time and probably hurt feelings.

I think you got the word right-“shutdown tactic”. She considers it a personal matter and no longer wishes to discuss it. You don’t try to “break” people like that.

Now at that point, you really have some choices-you can let her change the subject and end it, keep pressing and risk jeopardizing your relationship, or end it of your own volition.

You can’t force someone to debate something they don’t wish to debate.

I’m really glad I’m not the only one facing this.
One thing that I should’ve mentioned at the start of this thread is that SHE lead into a discussion about this matter - not I or my wife. “She started it” in so many words.

So when this “shutdown tactic” is brought up, it makes them look rather inept as debaters, when then bring up the topic in the first place.

 

[master_catholic]

One cannot debate someone else who is unwilling to engage in the debate.

However, a pointed question “food for thought” might be asking if one believes if God set up his Church her on earth for our benefit, and if so, does one believe that what the Church teaches is God’s truth.

I didn’t ask her this, but I did tell it to her. It’s a person she is rejecting, not just a rule, for it is based in Truth, Christ Himself.