How do you convience someone that a fertilised ovum is a human?

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How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
 
PLAT said:
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
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It is not possible to prove that any infant is “conscious” either. How is one in the womb different from one that has come out?

All one need do is show a person a basic biology or developmental psychology college text. They all define human life as beginning at conception.

Non-human life forms also feel pain, though it has been documented that the fetus does feel pain.

I am not sure about your last question, “abortion isn’t just even of rape”. Does it make any sense, if one person cuts and injures another, to kill the innocent bystander? It is illogical to kill a fetus because a horrible crime has been committed against the mother. It is also a concession that God is unable to heal that woman, and bring her to serenity with the life that has started in her.
 
PLAT said:
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
Click to expand...
After the egg is fertilized it has it’s own human DNA. 👍

Matthew
 
PLAT said:
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
Click to expand...
If it looks like a duck, has a duck’s DNA, then what else could it be?
 
PLAT said:
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
Click to expand...
Are people not human while they are in a deep, dreamless sleep? Or in a coma?

Are lepers not human because they cannot feel pain?

Do two wrongs make a right?

Are unborn children not human while they have wholely human and unique DNA?
 
GKC said:
The scientific definition of what constitutes a human being is genetic, and not developmental.

GKC
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I agree. But that isn’t obvious to everyone that it is so, nor what the significance of that is. Is there any significance to being human, genetically, as opposed to being something else? Or is it indeed only consciousness, for example, that is significant?

You have to actually have the discussion with people, and think it through.
 
PLAT said:
How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
Click to expand...
The presence of a soul seems to be the key.

Demonstrate how one goes about detecting the presence of a soul. For example, show that you can reliable detect the difference between a person and a rock without being able to actually see (or otherwise sense) either.

Use the same method to show that you can accurately determine when a women contains a fertilized egg.

At which point we should be able to conclude that even an undivided fertilized egg contains one or more human souls. You could also take over the massive pregnancy detection kit market.
 
Bluegoat said:
I agree. But that isn’t obvious to everyone that it is so, nor what the significance of that is. Is there any significance to being human, genetically, as opposed to being something else? Or is it indeed only consciousness, for example, that is significant?

You have to actually have the discussion with people, and think it through.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a significance to being human, as opposed to being something else. If you are genetically not a human, you are a cat or a flatworm. And the OP question was how to convince someone that a fertilized ovum is human. The scientific definition of a human is genetic, not any developmental stage; the ovum is that definition. To deny that is scientifically illiterate. To propose to treat humans differently, according to some arbitrary criteria may or may not be justifiable in a given circumstance; certainly the Nazis thought it was so. But to deny what constitutes a human being, with terms like consciousness, or whether pain can be felt, or a meaningful existence, or age, or non-Aryan, is not.

What makes you think I haven’t discussed this with people? At least I assume they were people, of the human persuasion; I performed no DNA tests. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.

GKC
 
GKC said:
Yes, there is a significance to being human, as opposed to being something else. If you are genetically not a human, you are a cat or a flatworm. And the OP question was how to convince someone that a fertilized ovum is human. The scientific definition of a human is genetic, not any developmental stage; the ovum is that definition. To deny that is scientifically illiterate. To propose to treat humans differently, according to some arbitrary criteria may or may not be justifiable in a given circumstance; certainly the Nazis thought it was so. But to deny what constitutes a human being, with terms like consciousness, or whether pain can be felt, or a meaningful existence, or age, or non-Aryan, is not.

What makes you think I haven’t discussed this with people? At least I assume they were people, of the human persuasion; I performed no DNA tests. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.

GKC
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I wouldn’t assume *you *haven’t discussed it with people. But generally I have met quite a few Christians who assume that people they speak to about this are starting from the same assumptions they are. But a lot of the time, those people haven’t really even considered the question in a meaningful way - they are a jumble of contradictory opinions. They don’t even know often what they mean when they say something is human - do they mean biologically? Do they mean in some moral sense being a rational being, or having rights?

I find if one doesn’t begin at the beginning, with no assumptions at all, it is hard to have a sensible discussion about this topic with many people - it just ends up with people talking past each other.
 
cerad2 said:
The presence of a soul seems to be the key.

Demonstrate how one goes about detecting the presence of a soul. For example, show that you can reliable detect the difference between a person and a rock without being able to actually see (or otherwise sense) either.

Use the same method to show that you can accurately determine when a women contains a fertilized egg.

At which point we should be able to conclude that even an undivided fertilized egg contains one or more human souls. You could also take over the massive pregnancy detection kit market.
Click to expand...
Let me know. I want to buy stock. 😃
 
Bluegoat said:
I wouldn’t assume *you *haven’t discussed it with people. But generally I have met quite a few Christians who assume that people they speak to about this are starting from the same assumptions they are. But a lot of the time, those people haven’t really even considered the question in a meaningful way - they are a jumble of contradictory opinions. They don’t even know often what they mean when they say something is human - do they mean biologically? Do they mean in some moral sense being a rational being, or having rights?

I find if one doesn’t begin at the beginning, with no assumptions at all, it is hard to have a sensible discussion about this topic with many people - it just ends up with people talking past each other.
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I do that all the time.

There is no question as to what a human being is, scientifically, though there certainly might be an unknown number of people ignorant as to the answer, but replete with personal opinions on the subject. The only question is what one can/should/might do with or to a human being, in given circumstances. The opinions on that are myriad. We (as a country) helped extinguish one flavor of such opinion, in May 1945.

GKC
 
We can not prove when ensoulment occurrs, thus making a “growth” with human DNA fully human. But, we can tell them that the more compassionate thing to do is let the “growth” mature and when it is a baby and they really don’t want him/her then they could give him/her up for adoption to a family which is unable to have their own and who will love and care for him/her. Thus switching the discussion from the woman’s wants and desires to those of a family who has not as of yet had the blessing of little ones.

A
 
PLAT said:
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
Click to expand...
When you have fertilization, you have a father and a mother, therefore you have a son/daughter.
 
Yeah, those people really think that killing someone in begetative state is merciful :eek: and yes this is serious

but thanks for these explanations to all of you
 
I’m not going to touch questions 1 and 2 with a ten foot pole.

However, the anti-abortionist who wants to argue there should be a rape exception bugs me incredibly. That statement alone says a whole lot about their attitude towards morality and their desire to force their morality on others.

Someone who is anti-abortion without exception is acting with moral consistency, it’s wholly about protecting life. But once people start adding “except rape” to it, it becomes morally inconsistent. How is the value of that child less because of the means of conception? Why is it fair to punish it for something that it has no control over? — Also, why is this okay, and not say an unplanned pregnancy that the mother can’t support?

It seems to be that those people on the fence leaning to the right are suggesting that the child is your punishment for your “immorality” and that it has little to do with the life itself.
 
PLAT said:
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she is concious?
How do you disagree that human is defined by whether he/she can feel pain?
How do you convince someone that abortion isn’t just even of rape?

How do you explain that the body and soul are formed at the moment of conception, to all followers of all religion/irreligion?
Click to expand...
Is it even possible for 2 humans to reproduce anything other than another human? no of course not. So obviously the fertilized egg of a human woman is human.
 
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