How do you convince those who do not believe life begins at conception?

[LeroyCRHP]

Yes, a unique life begins at conception, the joining of sperm and egg. The zygote is the beginning and it take invasion of the womb to stop that from becomming a person. It is not “a process”, that is how cars are made. A human has started and all DNA defining that person is in that zygote.

What do you mean by life begins at conception? Do you mean the process that will have an end product of a human begins at conception?

 

[RobbyS]

I could also see them saying that, while the embryo is a distinct human being, it nonetheless is a part of the woman’s body and reliant upon that woman for survival; they could go on to say that if a woman truly doesn’t want that human inside her she can abort it, since denying them that “right” violates their “right” to control over their body.

Just for clarification: I’m pro-life. I’m just curious how to answer the above statement, though.

How is it “part” of a woman’s body? a baby is not one of her organs. She is the host of the growing child, and he/she certainly doesn’t deny her “control.” of her body for most purposes. Unlike a tumor, the child probably makes her healthier, because she is “geared up” for pregnancy. Caring for the child will limit her behavior, but that is true after he/she is born, for a period of about twenty years.

 

[RobbyS]

Yes, a unique life begins at conception, the joining of sperm and egg. The zygote is the beginning and it take invasion of the womb to stop that from becomming a person. It is not “a process”, that is how cars are made. A human has started and all DNA defining that person is in that zygote.

A human being is certainly created at conception. Sometime pro-choice people talk as though in each human sperm is a seed containing a little person. Well, it is true that life comes from life, but it takes two lives to produce a third one. Even a clone demands the intervention of a human being.

 

[Jennifer123]

Sometime pro-choice people talk as though in each human sperm is a seed containing a little person.

A sperm and an egg each contain 23 chromosomes, respectfully. It is the joining of the two that create a distinct human being with the characteristic 46 chromosomes of our species.

 

[Abbadon]

You are confusing parts for a whole.

An egg and sperm, individual parts that posess human life, cease to exist once a human zygote, a human living being, is created. A zygote is a completely different and unique being, distinct from the parts that had just been used to create it. It has 46 chromosomes (more or less) and every individual cell, every part, has this characteristic number of chromosomes.

So human life is one or more cell with enough genetic code to code for a whole human?

So what about your bone marrow? Or any other cell in your body? that is all potential life.

 

[Abbadon]

So this is what a Pastafarian believes? When does life begin in your world? Please keep it simple for me, conception, birth, 2 years old?

In my world life is a constant and is never ending. Untill a cell stops undergoing meiosis and/or mitosis.

Have you seen the pictures of aborted cells? They look pretty human like to me, even next to a dime. (Google abortions for images)

Yeap I can do one better, I’ve worked on aborted cells, I don’t know if they were human though.

 

[Abbadon]

A sperm and an egg each contain 23 chromosomes, respectfully. It is the joining of the two that create a distinct human being with the characteristic 46 chromosomes of our species.

46+/-3 to be correct (I think it is 3, the maximum amount of aneuplody before auto pregnancy termination)

 

[Abbadon]

A human being is certainly created at conception. Sometime pro-choice people talk as though in each human sperm is a seed containing a little person. Well, it is true that life comes from life, but it takes two lives to produce a third one. Even a clone demands the intervention of a human being.

Actually I hear we can take stem cells from the spine and actually clone a creature without introducing genetic material into an egg. But I’ll have to double check how that went.

 

[Abbadon]

I really don’t think this whole issue is purely scientific one as much as it is also an ethical one.

Can we force a woman to give birth beyond her will?
Is it justified? Can we do that to someone? (hold them against their will untill they give birth?)

What if the womans life is in danger?

What does it mean to be a human?
What is a human life?
(some people here think it is merely the amount of chromosomes a cell contains, for me it’s a whole lot more complicated than that)

Does the embryo feel pain?
Does the embryo have cognitive functions?

Should we consider the effect of these and additional births on society? Where would the children go? Does it matter?

Anymore recommendations for questions we should be asking?

Then we have this religious idea that contraception is wrong and abortions are wrong. But you can’t have both and maintain a decent society. Unless you expected everyone to be “moral”, but you can’t expect that. If we look at Americas abstinence only program we see the highest rate of teen pregnancies in the western world.

Outside of the science my opinion will have to be that of what is best for society and the rights of a woman (I’m sorry the rights of the child have to loose out), regardless of how heartless of a bastard I may be. Abortions all the way untill 1-2 week before the baby is viable outside the mother. I just don’t like the idea of making a woman into an incubator and forcing her to give birth.

And I’m sure most women wouldn’t just throw their babies lives away. They would think about these things like when does human life begin and such yes?

 

[kalt]

Life began a few billion years ago.

It’s all one cycle. Even the sperm and the egg are life. So if you think about it most women are serial killers.

I think what you want to do is convince people that person hood begins at conception.

I think another poster also suggested this.

My argument is that personhood is a false and is merely a legal concept. It’s what the pro-choice side appeals to when they have to admit that the embryo is human.

The law also describe slaves as 1/2 persons. Of course that legal definition was false.

The pro-choice side relies on the law to bolster their argument. You have to show that the law is an unjust law.

Personhood is an invalid concept. It has been used against groups of humans many times, and each time it’s been proved unjust.

 

[Newbie2]

Slightly off topic-

In a debate, a fairly recent study concerning the large unknown number of miscarriages a women has unbeknowst to her was brought up. According to the study, 20% of pregnancies are miscarriages, but the number may be higher because women may not know they’ve experienced one.
I was asked then asked whether or not all those miscarriages ( including the mutatated ones, etc) all had a soul and went to heaven. I reply that they did.
Am I correct is replying so?

Sort of. We assume that the Almighty will take them into heaven, although he alone decides that, of course.

I understand what you are saying but the “personhood” argument is always a loser on the prolife end. It is irrelevant. Have you met a person who wasn’t a human? Human beings have an inherent right to life from the moment of conception. If a life can not be protected from the time the unique human individual is created, then its life is dependant on arbitrary laws and social mores.

.

I would disagree to some extent, as far as it being a losing part of the argument. The life and the personhood are inseparable. If the embryo is enabled (legally) with personhood status, then abortion will legally become murder. Until then, they’re just considered living extensions of the mother, which can be removed and discarded like a wart.

I agree in the sense that the argument is lost on those who currently make the decisions on the legality of abortion.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

You could try showing them pictures of the results of abortion.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

http://www.blessedhope.ws/abortion_picture.JPG

Also, point out the effects of the culture of death on Europe, a continent farther along the culture of death than America.
No Babies? Declining population in Europe. nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html

Death Tourism in Switzerlandeturbonews.com/3672/swiss-justice-minister-against-death-tourism

Dutch Oks Pedophile Party blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/07/dutch_court_oks.html

MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON OUR SOULS!!!

 

[Jennifer123]

So what about your bone marrow? Or any other cell in your body? that is all potential life.

One cell that is only a part of a human being does not make it a whole. It is only a part of that whole being. It posesses human life, yes, but it is not a whole being.

 

[Jennifer123]

I really don’t think this whole issue is purely scientific one as much as it is also an ethical one.

Can we force a woman to give birth beyond her will?
Is it justified? Can we do that to someone? (hold them against their will untill they give birth?)

What if the womans life is in danger?

What does it mean to be a human?
What is a human life?
(some people here think it is merely the amount of chromosomes a cell contains, for me it’s a whole lot more complicated than that)

Does the embryo feel pain?
Does the embryo have cognitive functions?

Should we consider the effect of these and additional births on society? Where would the children go? Does it matter?

Anymore recommendations for questions we should be asking?

Then we have this religious idea that contraception is wrong and abortions are wrong. But you can’t have both and maintain a decent society. Unless you expected everyone to be “moral”, but you can’t expect that. If we look at Americas abstinence only program we see the highest rate of teen pregnancies in the western world.

Outside of the science my opinion will have to be that of what is best for society and the rights of a woman (I’m sorry the rights of the child have to loose out), regardless of how heartless of a bastard I may be. Abortions all the way untill 1-2 week before the baby is viable outside the mother. I just don’t like the idea of making a woman into an incubator and forcing her to give birth.

And I’m sure most women wouldn’t just throw their babies lives away. They would think about these things like when does human life begin and such yes?

All of these questions are important but will derail the thread. If you would like answers please start a new thread.

 

[Semajleahcim]

All of these questions are important but will derail the thread. If you would like answers please start a new thread.

In other words;
Dang, that’s a good point, but I’m not changing my mind ever, regardless of logic so please go away!

 

[Semajleahcim]

One cell that is only a part of a human being does not make it a whole. It is only a part of that whole being. It posesses human life, yes, but it is not a whole being.

A embryo doesn’t have lungs, or a brain, either. A fetus is not a “whole being”.

 

[Jennifer123]

A embryo doesn’t have lungs, or a brain, either. A fetus is not a “whole being”.

What determines a human being is the distinct number of chromosomes according to its species. Humans have 46, more or less. An embryo has distinct DNA that is not its mothers, nor its fathers. It is a unique individual at the point of conception.

And yes, a fetus is a whole being just as is the zygote. It has distinct human DNA that makes it unique and individual.

 

[Jennifer123]

In other words;
Dang, that’s a good point, but I’m not changing my mind ever, regardless of logic so please go away!

No - I distinctly said answers would be provided but want to keep this discussion on point if possible. It is difficult to answer so many questions in one response.

 

[Semajleahcim]

No - I distinctly said answers would be provided but want to keep this discussion on point if possible. It is difficult to answer so many questions in one response.

It’s not that hard.
Also, it’s very on point with this discussion. You need both sides represented so as not to look foolish when trying to convince someone of something they don’t believe, especially when it’s really not anyone’s place to convince anyone of anything. People should present the facts, then allow people to draw their own conclusions.

 

[Semajleahcim]

What determines a human being is the distinct number of chromosomes according to its species. Humans have 46, more or less. An embryo has distinct DNA that is not its mothers, nor its fathers. It is a unique individual at the point of conception.

And yes, a fetus is a whole being just as is the zygote. It has distinct human DNA that makes it unique and individual.

It’s not individual, it’s a symbiote, connected to the mother, and drawing on her life for it’s own, fairly parasitic in nature, as the mother doesnt exactly gain anything, save 40 pounds or so. It is human life, but it is in no way a human being.