How do you convince those who do not believe life begins at conception?

[kalt]

I rarely step into abortion debates on this forum becuase, being pro-choice, I always end up like you - made out to be evil incarnate. But I’ve read this thread and I think you’ve done an admirable job and I just have to step in and say that I agree with you. The above point is a very good one, by the way. If the fetus is viable, cut it out, stick it in an incubator, get the religious right charities to pay the bill and maybe one of those good folks will adopt it and give it a loving traditional family home.

A developing fetus, especially in the early stages, is like a fertized chicked egg. It is no more the equivelent of a fully developed baby than the egg is to a live chicken. At that point, IMO, the fully developed, born, woman has every right to make the decision that is best for her. I guess you could say I’m big on the rights of the born. I’ve never been able to equate the unborn with the born - the differences are so obvious and stark that the argument itself amazes me. IMO, we have to give preference to the born.

Sometimes women can’t carry children to term. Sometimes they are sick, mentally and/or physically. I was both. Unable to work or even eat, losing weight and suicidally depressed (I’m bipolar and have fought with depression since I was a child). I had an abortion. I suspect there are people here who would be happier if I’d committed suicide, that’t be one less pro-choice person to worry about. I know other women who’ve aborted. All of them gave serious thought to the decision, they didn’t make it lightly. Nobody is pro-abortion, despite the rhetoric of the so called pro-life camp; though since many of them lose interest in the child once it is born, and seem to spend little or no time trying to help the born children who suffer everyday, I tend to call them the pro-birth group (I realize there are exceptions to this and for all of those out there who work to reduce poverty and suffering, good for you .)

The issue of who would be taking care of all these babies were they born is one most pro-birth people tend to gloss over or ignore. I’ve had at least one woman tell me she was, and I quote, “pro-life not pro-quality of life”. How about we work to reduce poverty and suffering for the born, then we worry about the unborn. We work to make the world a better place for those babies and maybe more women will chose to have them.

And for the record, I was a pro-choice Christian for most of my 50 years. I am now an agnostic.

I think you might have misunderstood the “pro-quality of life” comment. Many claim that quality of life is what matters most. They justify aboriton when the baby is not perfect by saying that the quality of life of the baby would be unacceptable. They do the same with the elderly.

I don’t support keeping people alive for the sake of keeping them alive, when there is no realistic chance of any kind of recovery. But to intentionally kill someone…that’s a different thing.

 

[CWBetts]

I rarely step into abortion debates on this forum becuase, being pro-choice, I always end up like you - made out to be evil incarnate. But I’ve read this thread and I think you’ve done an admirable job and I just have to step in and say that I agree with you. The above point is a very good one, by the way. If the fetus is viable, cut it out, stick it in an incubator, get the religious right charities to pay the bill and maybe one of those good folks will adopt it and give it a loving traditional family home.

A developing fetus, especially in the early stages, is like a fertized chicked egg. It is no more the equivelent of a fully developed baby than the egg is to a live chicken. At that point, IMO, the fully developed, born, woman has every right to make the decision that is best for her. I guess you could say I’m big on the rights of the born. I’ve never been able to equate the unborn with the born - the differences are so obvious and stark that the argument itself amazes me. IMO, we have to give preference to the born.

Sometimes women can’t carry children to term. Sometimes they are sick, mentally and/or physically. I was both. Unable to work or even eat, losing weight and suicidally depressed (I’m bipolar and have fought with depression since I was a child). I had an abortion. I suspect there are people here who would be happier if I’d committed suicide, that’t be one less pro-choice person to worry about. I know other women who’ve aborted. All of them gave serious thought to the decision, they didn’t make it lightly. Nobody is pro-abortion, despite the rhetoric of the so called pro-life camp; though since many of them lose interest in the child once it is born, and seem to spend little or no time trying to help the born children who suffer everyday, I tend to call them the pro-birth group (I realize there are exceptions to this and for all of those out there who work to reduce poverty and suffering, good for you .)

The issue of who would be taking care of all these babies were they born is one most pro-birth people tend to gloss over or ignore. I’ve had at least one woman tell me she was, and I quote, “pro-life not pro-quality of life”. How about we work to reduce poverty and suffering for the born, then we worry about the unborn. We work to make the world a better place for those babies and maybe more women will chose to have them.

And for the record, I was a pro-choice Christian for most of my 50 years. I am now an agnostic.

What an utter disrespect for the greatest gift God bestows in this life: a child. Disgraceful

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Bear witness and pray for conversion. Pray that they support the life of the baby. Pray for the Truth. Ask for our Blessed Mother’s intercession.

 

[flatlanderjenn]

It’s funny you should mention animals, because somewhere in this forums someone said something along the lines of, “can you imagine the outrage if some vet starting performing animal abortions!”

I had never thought of that (and maybe they do it all the time) but it seems our current society would respond much more passionately about animals fetuses than humans. It would be an interesting thing to see. (not that I want it to happen) I’m pretty sure the church’s view on animals is that they have no immortal souls, so it would be much less grave than what happens to a human…

Kind-of this side subject, my mom was a veterinary assistant and once she assisted the vet in performing an abortion on a Lab mix. The animal is actually cut open instead of taking the unborn out through the vagina, I guess, because the puppies were squirming in the trash can and my mom couldn’t bear it so she revived and saved 4 of the 6. It may be unethical because the dog’s owner never knew about it, and the vet was pissed at my mom, but after they were weaned from the bottle we gave them away for free to good homes.:yup:

 

[flatlanderjenn]

I rarely step into abortion debates on this forum becuase, being pro-choice, I always end up like you - made out to be evil incarnate. But I’ve read this thread and I think you’ve done an admirable job and I just have to step in and say that I agree with you. The above point is a very good one, by the way. If the fetus is viable, cut it out, stick it in an incubator, get the religious right charities to pay the bill and maybe one of those good folks will adopt it and give it a loving traditional family home.

A developing fetus, especially in the early stages, is like a fertized chicked egg. It is no more the equivelent of a fully developed baby than the egg is to a live chicken. At that point, IMO, the fully developed, born, woman has every right to make the decision that is best for her. I guess you could say I’m big on the rights of the born. I’ve never been able to equate the unborn with the born - the differences are so obvious and stark that the argument itself amazes me. IMO, we have to give preference to the born.

Sometimes women can’t carry children to term. Sometimes they are sick, mentally and/or physically. I was both. Unable to work or even eat, losing weight and suicidally depressed (I’m bipolar and have fought with depression since I was a child). I had an abortion. I suspect there are people here who would be happier if I’d committed suicide, that’t be one less pro-choice person to worry about. I know other women who’ve aborted. All of them gave serious thought to the decision, they didn’t make it lightly. Nobody is pro-abortion, despite the rhetoric of the so called pro-life camp; though since many of them lose interest in the child once it is born, and seem to spend little or no time trying to help the born children who suffer everyday, I tend to call them the pro-birth group (I realize there are exceptions to this and for all of those out there who work to reduce poverty and suffering, good for you .)

The issue of who would be taking care of all these babies were they born is one most pro-birth people tend to gloss over or ignore. I’ve had at least one woman tell me she was, and I quote, “pro-life not pro-quality of life”. How about we work to reduce poverty and suffering for the born, then we worry about the unborn. We work to make the world a better place for those babies and maybe more women will chose to have them.

And for the record, I was a pro-choice Christian for most of my 50 years. I am now an agnostic.

I know a mother who was hospitalized with each of her four pregnancies because of severe illness and weight loss. She never caved in to the culture of death and now has four beautiful and healthy children, her youngest is eight, and she still practices NFP.

I know another mother who’s first child had that disease where she was born without a brain. Encephinapholy? Holding her three-day-old daughter was a miracle and privilege that I will never forget. The little girl died two days later. She now has two more children.

Both of those women are so much stronger than I am, and I am blessed to have known them. It is possible for any mother to carry their child to term and deliver, not impossible. All mothers can carry their children to term. All mothers have the ability to carry their children to term. Many refuse.

Could you be agnostic because you are mad at God…blame God for your pregnancy and abortion? Did you expect your mental health to improve after the abortion? Did your mental health improve or deteriorate?

 

[dkdempsey]

If one would show them the ultrasound pictures of the unborn child, then they might decide to keep the baby. Also explain to them that the fetus has a heartbeat.

I absolutely hate abortion. There’s nothing more evil than murdering the innocent, especially at their most vulnerable.

 

[flatlanderjenn]

My priest (is that the same as pastor? Yes my mother is catholic and I go to church every Sunday and I am nice to everyone) isn’t a scientist working in and around the field so I doubt he would know.

A scientist will not be able to tell you if the Lord blesses human embryonic stem cell research or the making of scientifically-made babies.
A priest will be able to tell you.
And didn’t Saint Paul write he who receives the Eucharist unworthily brings judgement upon himself?

 

[flatlanderjenn]

Women have been seen as the breeding pods of society for so long…

Thank you for bringing me some humor this evening. I asked my husband to now refer to me as his “breeding pod” since I’ve “bred” three children for him. So funny!

 

[TBolt1000T]

A good heavy gun that we can use to defend the truth about abortion is Luke 1:41-45. For “pro-choice” Christians, if it’s presented in that context, it should be Biblical proof enough for them to at least rethink their beliefs. St. John the Baptist had a soul even before he was born. Therefore, everyone else does too.

For non-Christians, the “Silent Scream” video on YouTube should throw them for a loop.

 

[remjsmom76]

I am one of those that believe life DOES NOT start at conception. why well one poster was stating the questions of

If its not alive it cant be dead because the it will become a spontaneous abortion…and so forth. However for me it is still just a cluster of cells. To me it is not alive until it is attached to the womb and starts to receive nutrients from the mother. That cluster of cells may have been conceived at a point when the uterus is a violent environment and the uterus will not allow the cluster of cells to attach to the womb. This can happen even if you are not using BC. A healthy woman who is under a lot of stress, her body may not allow her to become pregnant. So that is why I do not believe that life begins at conception. If that were true, then who knows how many babies I have lost? I have had 4 girls, but I know there were other eggs fertilized that didn’t take…that’s the natural process.

NOW once it has implanted and it is taking nutrients from the mother, then that’s it. I believe that when that happens life starts, its getting food, its getting nutrients, to form into a higher evolved species, a human of course. When its growing and its implanted, that’s when you should not abort! That is abortion, the stopping of the nutrients from one body to another. Your stopping the growth of that child, you take away its protective home, its incubator.

It is why I don’t see anything wrong with barrier methods. I don’t see anything wrong with BC either, but that to me leads to promiscuity so I don’t agree with it in the end.

I don’t see how trying to convince people that life starts at conception has to do with abortion. We need to convince people that that “tissue” as they call it is a real live human being, that has blood flowing into it, a heart beat and brain waves too. Abortion to me is when you RIP that being out of its already protective home.

 

[Jennifer123]

I don’t see how trying to convince people that life starts at conception has to do with abortion. .

When sperm and egg combine, they cease to exist as a unique individual is created with its own human dna. It is a human being at the very beginning of its life-long journey.

You may believe life starts at implantation, but that is not a true belief. Life begins at conception.
"“Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
“Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.”
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]”

With all due respect, if you are a Catholic, it is your responsibility to educate yourself as to what the Church teaches and why it teaches it before you summarily reject its teachings. I tell you this for your own sake. God Bless you.

 

[Newbie2]

Thank you for bringing me some humor this evening. I asked my husband to now refer to me as his “breeding pod” since I’ve “bred” three children for him. So funny!

Yes, very “Matrix-like” there, Coppertop!

 

[fix]

To me it is not alive until it is attached to the womb and starts to receive nutrients from the mother. That cluster of cells may have been conceived at a point when the uterus is a violent environment and the uterus will not allow the cluster of cells to attach to the womb. This can happen even if you are not using BC. A healthy woman who is under a lot of stress, her body may not allow her to become pregnant. So that is why I do not believe that life begins at conception. If that were true, then who knows how many babies I have lost? I have had 4 girls, but I know there were other eggs fertilized that didn’t take…that’s the natural process.

I am sorry, but I cannot follow your reasoning. Why would the number of spontaneous abortions have any bearing on the issue?

NOW once it has implanted and it is taking nutrients from the mother, then that’s it.

Why so arbitrary? Exactly how long must the baby be implanted before it is a human? One second? One hour? One week?

 

[remjsmom76]

Well see a spontanious abortion is when a fertalized egg, is NOT able to implant. That means that a “life” has been aborted, no? I mean if we are to argue that life starts at conception, then it is to be assumed that a woman who is trying to get pregnant, and her eggs are being fertalized, but they are unable to implant into her uterus for whatever reasons (scarring of the uterus or whatever) then she has “miss carried”.

I mean we are trying to convince people that abortion is wrong. I agree, abortion is evil. However I dont see how a fertalized egg that is still floating around has to do with abortion. Abortion, to me, when when you have a child, that fertalized egg, already recieving nurishment from the mother. Then you all of a sudden RIP THAT BEING OUT!!! Its like being forced out of your home without you wanting to… You have taken up root in that home. A fertalized egg, that has not implanted is just there floating around, WAITING TO IMPLANT, it needs the RIGHT CONDITIONS to implant. A mother under stress or other situations…otherwise healthy, will normally not provide a welcomed environment for a fertalized egg…therefore the body will NOT allow the egg to implant itself into the womb. That child, if life begins at conception is correct, then just died because it was “aborted” Im not talking about spontaneous abortion when the child has been implanted, the mother “knows” about the pregnancy and is already growing and maturing into a baby. NO, Im talking about a fertalized egg that has YET to be implanted. It is still considered a “spontaneous abortion”.

And as for your questions as to when or how long must the baby be implanted…to me…and yes it may sound arbitrary, but to me the MOMENT THAT EGG attaches itself to the mother into the womb…at that moment LIFE beigns.

What we need to do is NOT convince people life starts at conception…you will find that people will not believe that, but I feel that more people will believe that life starts at implantation. Yes we should give all fertalized eggs the benift of the doub. The chance at possibly starting life. A seed is just that a seed. It hold the POSSIBILITY OF becoming a plant. If you leave it alone, and give it no food, it will not come alive. Same thing with a human egg. If it cant implant, it will not come alive…it needs the nourishment of the mothers blood. So, IMHO, if the egg has not implanted and cant recive nourishment…its just another floaty thing, that will just pass by in menstration. Unless it should be so lucky to implant AND have a mother that wants to keep it.

I am sorry, but I cannot follow your reasoning. Why would the number of spontaneous abortions have any bearing on the issue?

Why so arbitrary? Exactly how long must the baby be implanted before it is a human? One second? One hour? One week?

 

[fix]

Well see a spontanious abortion is when a fertalized egg, is NOT able to implant.

No, it can happen at any point. Nature is full of physical evils. But, that does not mean we can intend such a result.

I mean we are trying to convince people that abortion is wrong. I agree, abortion is evil. However I dont see how a fertalized egg that is still floating around has to do with abortion. Abortion, to me, when when you have a child, that fertalized egg, already recieving nurishment from the mother. Then you all of a sudden RIP THAT BEING OUT!!! Its like being forced out of your home without you wanting to… You have taken up root in that home. A fertalized egg, that has not implanted is just there floating around, WAITING TO IMPLANT, it needs the RIGHT CONDITIONS to implant.

Direct abortion includes the intention to abort the child. If it is spontaneous and unintended how is that equal to someone desiring the baby to be dead?

And as for your questions as to when or how long must the baby be implanted…to me…and yes it may sound arbitrary, but to me the MOMENT THAT EGG attaches itself to the mother into the womb…at that moment LIFE beigns.

Well, at least you admit it is arbitrary.

 

[remjsmom76]

OH no…I never wanted to sound like I intended an abortion to happen…it seems to me you are looking for someone to argue with. I am sorry if I sound like Im for aboriton, but Im not. My brothers daughter was a survivor of a failed abortion attempt and she survived for 32 days.

To me abortion has nothing to do with a free floating body of cells. It has everything to do with with that cluster of cells ONCE it has been growing into a fetus, a baby.

I know direct abortion is the intention of stoping a pregnancy. But to me it does not stop there. To me an abortion, again, is when you completly CUT OFF and RIP out a child that has already started to grow due to implantation…not a free floating cluster of cells that has not yet made the womb to be its home for 9 months.

Now for your last question…“how is that equal to someone desiring the baby to be dead?”

It doesnt…I never said it did. Im simply stating that for me a fertalized egg is not yet alive. I mean that person could use the morning after pill to prevent implantation. I dont agree with that either, because I also feel that if you have sex, you need to accountable to all its responsibilities not just for the pleasure of it all. Yes, you can get pregnant, doesnt mean your going to but you have a 50/50 chance.

We need not to convince people about life starting at conception…we need to convince them and make them see that that cluster of cells is NOW, once embeded into the womb, alive. It is taking food from the mother, it is being “watered” so to speak. It has a chance to grow. Yes there is the possibility of that child not making it through the entire pregnancy. That happens…thats another way of spontaneous abortion. I mean an egg can implant itself, but still “die” before the mother even knows she was pregnant.

I guess, sure we could convice the people that all fertalized eggs should be given the chance at taking. Give it the chance at implanting itself into the mother and give it the chance at maybe growing to a baby–> human.

But no, I dont think a free floating cell is alive…I dont think it will be alive until it sticks…and abortion is not to be done once the cluster of cells have stuck.

I never said it was equal to someone desiring the baby to be dead. I think its horrible that someone would want and rip out a child from its nourishing home.

No, it can happen at any point. Nature is full of physical evils. But, that does not mean we can intend such a result.

Direct abortion includes the intention to abort the child. If it is spontaneous and unintended how is that equal to someone desiring the baby to be dead?

Well, at least you admit it is arbitrary.

 

[Swan]

I know a mother who was hospitalized with each of her four pregnancies because of severe illness and weight loss. She never caved in to the culture of death and now has four beautiful and healthy children, her youngest is eight, and she still practices NFP.

I know another mother who’s first child had that disease where she was born without a brain. Encephinapholy? Holding her three-day-old daughter was a miracle and privilege that I will never forget. The little girl died two days later. She now has two more children.

Both of those women are so much stronger than I am, and I am blessed to have known them. It is possible for any mother to carry their child to term and deliver, not impossible. All mothers can carry their children to term. All mothers have the ability to carry their children to term. Many refuse.

Could you be agnostic because you are mad at God…blame God for your pregnancy and abortion? Did you expect your mental health to improve after the abortion? Did your mental health improve or deteriorate?

Good for them. I had no money, job or insurance. Mad at God? How could I be mad at a entity I don’t believe in? Folks, this was over 20 years ago. I’ve been suidical before and since. My depression has been with me since I was about 10 - I’m now 50. Bipolar disorder runs in my family. My dad killed himself, brother drank himself to death. Personally, I don’t think life is anything to write home about. I certainly could have done without it.

And, yes, it was a mistake to end up pregnant - I was very codependent and was talked into getting pregnant by a man who deserted me once I was. I had my tubes tied and that was that.

Oh, and about that cheap crack about my being agnostic because it’s easy for me - you don’t know me from Adam - my life, choices, agonies, searching, all sincere, you know nothing about. I assure you that it wasnt’ an easy conclusion, nor one that I made to ease my conscience. When I finally reevaluated my beliefs and through reason, observation and research I came to the conclusion that there is no personal god of any kind and, being honest with myself, realized that make me an agnostic (I believe in the supernatural, so I’m not an atheist). Thus the very basis for my and your beliefs on life are in themselves poles apart.

 

[kalt]

“And as for your questions as to when or how long must the baby be implanted…to me…and yes it may sound arbitrary, but to me the MOMENT THAT EGG attaches itself to the mother into the womb…at that moment LIFE beigns.”

This doesn’t make logical sense to me. The zygote is obviously alive. The cells are dividing and multiplying, so it’s not dead. It’s not an inanimate object. That it is alive is unquestionable.

At this stage, it doesn’t need to be implanted to grow. It’s doing that as it travels down the tubes into the uterus.

By the time it implants itself, it has reached another stage–the name escapes me.

To pick this stage of development and claim that this is when life begins doesn’t make sense to me. Why this stage and not the few that come before or one of those that come after?

What does implantation have to do with it?

Spontaneous abortions can happen at any time in a pregnancy.

 

[kalt]

Good for them. I had no money, job or insurance. Mad at God? How could I be mad at a entity I don’t believe in? Folks, this was over 20 years ago. I’ve been suidical before and since. My depression has been with me since I was about 10 - I’m now 50. Bipolar disorder runs in my family. My dad killed himself, brother drank himself to death. Personally, I don’t think life is anything to write home about. I certainly could have done without it.

And, yes, it was a mistake to end up pregnant - I was very codependent and was talked into getting pregnant by a man who deserted me once I was. I had my tubes tied and that was that.

Oh, and about that cheap crack about my being agnostic because it’s easy for me - you don’t know me from Adam - my life, choices, agonies, searching, all sincere, you know nothing about. I assure you that it wasnt’ an easy conclusion, nor one that I made to ease my conscience. When I finally reevaluated my beliefs and through reason, observation and research I came to the conclusion that there is no personal god of any kind and, being honest with myself, realized that make me an agnostic (I believe in the supernatural, so I’m not an atheist). Thus the very basis for my and your beliefs on life are in themselves poles apart.

Know you from Adam?

 

[Junebug999]

How do you convinec those who do not believe life begins at conception? You pray a lot, you present what you can when you can in a charitable manner, you pray a lot more, and you live a Holy life for them to see Christ in you. Hopefully that leads them to question themselves and turn from their unbelief.