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namer0331
Guest
so an apparent claim is that Luke 2: 41-49 shows that mary was a bad mother and then she questions god? how do you defend this
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danil
Guest
Mary was never bad as stated in the scriptures if anything it even proved how great of a mother she was being so concern of her missing child.
po18guy
Well-known member
Notice that Jesus also chose “bad disciples” who, after spending three years in His presence, did not recognize Him either by face or voice along the road to Emmaus (Mark 16:12, Luke 24:13-35), or by face or voice on the shore of the sea of Tiberias in John 21. Mary Magdalen also thought Him to be the gardener (John 20:15). Either Jesus did all of this for a divine reason, or He was so incompetent in choosing followers that He Himself is not worth following. Toss the ball back to the accuser, pointing out that the devil is the accuser in scripture (Revelation 12:10).
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mikeeh
Guest
A priest once explained it during his homily, that since Jesus was 12 years old he was at a transitional time, so he would have started to make those journeys with his father rather than his mother. When people would travel in large groups back then the women would walk together (with their small children) to talk and gossip, and the men would walk together to talk as well. It is possible that Mary thought Jesus was with his father, and Joseph thought Jesus was with his mother. So it was just lack of communication. Of course at 12 years old Jesus should have known to stay close to one of his parents, but then he wouldn’t have been found in the house of his Father dazzling the teachers.
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McCartney
Guest
This hasn’t changed in 2000 years.
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Jennie1964
Guest
Easy…by noting that our culture is far too overprotective and suffocating towards their children. As children, we used to play all around our neighbourhood at far younger ages with no parental supervision. We were free to roam, wander and just have fun being kids. We all knew our limits and there were very rarely any injuries.
Today kids are suffocated in a blanket of protective frenzy that does them more harm than good. Also Jesus was 12 at that point. At 13, traditionally in Jewish culture, a boy is considered a man, so why would she worry about him? Presumably he was a child who had much common sense, right? If anybody did, HE did.
The question you asked tells far more about the one asking the question than it does about Mary and Jesus.
Today kids are suffocated in a blanket of protective frenzy that does them more harm than good. Also Jesus was 12 at that point. At 13, traditionally in Jewish culture, a boy is considered a man, so why would she worry about him? Presumably he was a child who had much common sense, right? If anybody did, HE did.
The question you asked tells far more about the one asking the question than it does about Mary and Jesus.
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hu324b
Guest
It could also be a forshadowing - is it a coincident that he is lost for three day and then found on the third day?
I might also add - at the passover , in Jerusalem - 20 years before his crucifixion.
Other than that their claim is just ridiculous. Jesus was also 12 years old - thats not a small child - thats a young man.
I might also add - at the passover , in Jerusalem - 20 years before his crucifixion.
Other than that their claim is just ridiculous. Jesus was also 12 years old - thats not a small child - thats a young man.
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dee_burk
Guest
Um, i think i would be just plain dumbstruck and unable to respond to such a preposterous allegation. Who would make a claim like that? Certainly NOT the Gospel of Luke.
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phil19034
Guest
IF there was any parental sin involved with Jesus being missing, it would have been Joseph’s, not Mary’s.
Most likely, Jesus was either supposed to be with Joseph at the time or with other people from the group. Mary would not have been at fault.
God Bless
Most likely, Jesus was either supposed to be with Joseph at the time or with other people from the group. Mary would not have been at fault.
God Bless
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TimothyH
Guest
Mary represents all of creation, and especially the righteous of Israel, longing for its messiah and savior.
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." (Luke 2:48)
Mary speaks for Israel and speaks for all of creation. All of creation has been looking anxiously for the messiah up until that point. Now the Messiah is standing right in front of mankind’s representative - Mary - and she is able to look God in the eye and ask what took him so long to come.
Its not just a mother and her son. It is the pinnacle of creation standing before God asking on behalf of all of humanity, “What took you so long to come?!” Mary alone is able to voice mankind’s frustration with God for having waited so long to save us. Only the Mother of God has the right to speak to God her Son in this way.
Jesus’ answer is sublime.
-Tim0
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." (Luke 2:48)
Mary speaks for Israel and speaks for all of creation. All of creation has been looking anxiously for the messiah up until that point. Now the Messiah is standing right in front of mankind’s representative - Mary - and she is able to look God in the eye and ask what took him so long to come.
Its not just a mother and her son. It is the pinnacle of creation standing before God asking on behalf of all of humanity, “What took you so long to come?!” Mary alone is able to voice mankind’s frustration with God for having waited so long to save us. Only the Mother of God has the right to speak to God her Son in this way.
Jesus’ answer is sublime.
-Tim0
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hu324b
Guest
This explains better what I was trying to say:
What Jesus taught Mary when he was “lost”, and then found
Tradition holds that Blessed Mary alone remained steadfast in faith, even in the midst of her grief, on the Saturday of our Savior’s rest in the tomb. She knew, by her perfect faith, that Jesus would indeed rise from the dead on the third day – perhaps this is why she did not go with the other women to the tomb on Easter Sunday morning, she knew that she must not seek the living among the dead.
How is it that Mary knew that Jesus would rise from the dead? What event, if any, can be singled out as the moment when she first began to understand that her beloved Son would die and rise again?
Many years earlier, when Jesus was only twelve, he began to instruct his Mother in the paschal mystery.
[In this busy time of year, this is a re-presentation of an earlier article from 7 April 2012 … however, it fits quite well with the Sunday Gospel]
Mary lost her Jesus once before
And his parents went every year to Jerusalem, at the solemn day of the pasch, And when he was twelve years old, they going up into Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast, And having fulfilled the days, when they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not. And thinking that he was in the company, they came a day’s journey, and sought him among their kinsfolks and acquaintance. And not finding him, they returned into Jerusalem, seeking him. (Luke 2:41-45)
Notice that a) The event occurs in Jerusalem, b) at the time of the Passover. The Holy Family had travelled from Nazareth to Jerusalem in order to celebrate the yearly paschal feast.
Now, we know that Mary committed no sin and, of course, neither could Jesus have committed any sin whatsoever. Thus, it should be clear that there was no sin involved (nor even any true imperfection) in the loss of the Christ Child.
Mary did nothing wrong. Jesus did nothing wrong. And even Joseph did nothing wrong. Yet there is sorrow and confusion – for although Mary never erred, she (unlike the Christ) did not know all things. Mary, together with Joseph, yet had to be instructed in the great mysteries of the faith, and it was to this purpose that Christ remained behind in the Temple.
The Lord allowed himself to be lost for a moment, so that Joseph and his Mother might understand the plan of salvation which was to be accomplished in him.
After three days, she found her Child
And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his wisdom and his answers. And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father’s business? And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them. (Luke 2:46-50)
Mary and Joseph search for Jesus, and find him on the third day. This is no mere coincidence or useless detail – the Divine Providence provided for that the Child Jesus should only be found after the third day. And that he should be found in his Father’s house and accomplishing his Father’s work.
After three days, this phrase should immediately draw our hearts and minds to the mystery of the death and resurrection of Christ. For three days, Christ would be lost to the whole world. For three days, the Savior would be dead. But, after three days, he would rise and be found.
St. Ambrose (quoted in the Catena Aurea) speaks to this mystery saying, “After three days He is found in the temple, that it might be for a sign, that after three days of victorious suffering, He who was believed to be dead should rise again anti manifest Himself to our faith, seated in heaven with divine glory.”
This is what Jesus was teaching to Mary and also to Joseph – that he would die and rise again on the third day. It was a difficult and painful teaching. And so, there is anguish and sorrow in Mary’s heart as she questions her divine Son: Son, [she speaks in all tenderness] why hast thou done so to us?
Our Blessed Lady does not doubt, and she certainly does not accuse. Rather, she questions, she asks – “teach me, my Son; reveal to me the mystery.” And he begins to teach her.
What Jesus taught Mary when he was “lost”, and then found
Tradition holds that Blessed Mary alone remained steadfast in faith, even in the midst of her grief, on the Saturday of our Savior’s rest in the tomb. She knew, by her perfect faith, that Jesus would indeed rise from the dead on the third day – perhaps this is why she did not go with the other women to the tomb on Easter Sunday morning, she knew that she must not seek the living among the dead.
How is it that Mary knew that Jesus would rise from the dead? What event, if any, can be singled out as the moment when she first began to understand that her beloved Son would die and rise again?
Many years earlier, when Jesus was only twelve, he began to instruct his Mother in the paschal mystery.
[In this busy time of year, this is a re-presentation of an earlier article from 7 April 2012 … however, it fits quite well with the Sunday Gospel]
Mary lost her Jesus once before
And his parents went every year to Jerusalem, at the solemn day of the pasch, And when he was twelve years old, they going up into Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast, And having fulfilled the days, when they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not. And thinking that he was in the company, they came a day’s journey, and sought him among their kinsfolks and acquaintance. And not finding him, they returned into Jerusalem, seeking him. (Luke 2:41-45)
Notice that a) The event occurs in Jerusalem, b) at the time of the Passover. The Holy Family had travelled from Nazareth to Jerusalem in order to celebrate the yearly paschal feast.
Now, we know that Mary committed no sin and, of course, neither could Jesus have committed any sin whatsoever. Thus, it should be clear that there was no sin involved (nor even any true imperfection) in the loss of the Christ Child.
Mary did nothing wrong. Jesus did nothing wrong. And even Joseph did nothing wrong. Yet there is sorrow and confusion – for although Mary never erred, she (unlike the Christ) did not know all things. Mary, together with Joseph, yet had to be instructed in the great mysteries of the faith, and it was to this purpose that Christ remained behind in the Temple.
The Lord allowed himself to be lost for a moment, so that Joseph and his Mother might understand the plan of salvation which was to be accomplished in him.
After three days, she found her Child
And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his wisdom and his answers. And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father’s business? And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them. (Luke 2:46-50)
Mary and Joseph search for Jesus, and find him on the third day. This is no mere coincidence or useless detail – the Divine Providence provided for that the Child Jesus should only be found after the third day. And that he should be found in his Father’s house and accomplishing his Father’s work.
After three days, this phrase should immediately draw our hearts and minds to the mystery of the death and resurrection of Christ. For three days, Christ would be lost to the whole world. For three days, the Savior would be dead. But, after three days, he would rise and be found.
St. Ambrose (quoted in the Catena Aurea) speaks to this mystery saying, “After three days He is found in the temple, that it might be for a sign, that after three days of victorious suffering, He who was believed to be dead should rise again anti manifest Himself to our faith, seated in heaven with divine glory.”
This is what Jesus was teaching to Mary and also to Joseph – that he would die and rise again on the third day. It was a difficult and painful teaching. And so, there is anguish and sorrow in Mary’s heart as she questions her divine Son: Son, [she speaks in all tenderness] why hast thou done so to us?
Our Blessed Lady does not doubt, and she certainly does not accuse. Rather, she questions, she asks – “teach me, my Son; reveal to me the mystery.” And he begins to teach her.
H
hu324b
Guest
Mary grew in her understanding of these mysteries
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart. (Luke 2:51)
We can be certain that our Lady had long before already come to something of an understanding that the Christ would suffer and die, and so rise again. She had read of the Suffering Servant and the Lamentations. She knew that Isaac had been offered by Abraham, and had been received back alive. And so, she certainly knew something of the paschal mysteries.
However, this knowledge was not always clear – for faith is believing in that which is not seen. And even that which is seen is as through a glass in a dark manner (1 Corinthians 13:12). And so, Mary came, step by step, to an understanding of that which she believed.
St. Theophylus tells us (in the Catena Aurea), “The Virgin, whether she understood or whether she could not yet understand, equally laid up all things in her heart for reflection and diligent examination. Hence it follows, And, his mother laid up all these things, etc. Mark the wisest of mothers, Mary the mother of true wisdom, becomes the scholar or disciple of the Child. For she yielded to Him not as to a boy, nor as to a man, but as unto God. Further, she pondered upon both His divine words and works, so that nothing that was said or done by Him was lost upon her, but as the Word itself was before in her womb, so now she conceived the ways and words of the same, and in a manner nursed them in her heart. And while indeed she thought upon one thing at the time, another she wanted to be more clearly revealed to her; and this was her constant rule and law through her whole life.”
Pondering on these things in her Immaculate Heart, the Blessed Mother came to understand that, even when it seemed as though her Son was ultimately lost to her through his death, he would indeed be returned to her and to all on the third day through his resurrection from the dead.
She had lost her Child once before, in Jerusalem, at the feast of Passover; but she had come to understand that he was doing his Father’s will, and she saw that he was returned to her safely. It was the memory of the finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple which stayed Mary’s faith through the sorrows of the first Holy Saturday.
Mary, model of all believers, Pray for us who have recourse to thee!
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart. (Luke 2:51)
We can be certain that our Lady had long before already come to something of an understanding that the Christ would suffer and die, and so rise again. She had read of the Suffering Servant and the Lamentations. She knew that Isaac had been offered by Abraham, and had been received back alive. And so, she certainly knew something of the paschal mysteries.
However, this knowledge was not always clear – for faith is believing in that which is not seen. And even that which is seen is as through a glass in a dark manner (1 Corinthians 13:12). And so, Mary came, step by step, to an understanding of that which she believed.
St. Theophylus tells us (in the Catena Aurea), “The Virgin, whether she understood or whether she could not yet understand, equally laid up all things in her heart for reflection and diligent examination. Hence it follows, And, his mother laid up all these things, etc. Mark the wisest of mothers, Mary the mother of true wisdom, becomes the scholar or disciple of the Child. For she yielded to Him not as to a boy, nor as to a man, but as unto God. Further, she pondered upon both His divine words and works, so that nothing that was said or done by Him was lost upon her, but as the Word itself was before in her womb, so now she conceived the ways and words of the same, and in a manner nursed them in her heart. And while indeed she thought upon one thing at the time, another she wanted to be more clearly revealed to her; and this was her constant rule and law through her whole life.”
Pondering on these things in her Immaculate Heart, the Blessed Mother came to understand that, even when it seemed as though her Son was ultimately lost to her through his death, he would indeed be returned to her and to all on the third day through his resurrection from the dead.
She had lost her Child once before, in Jerusalem, at the feast of Passover; but she had come to understand that he was doing his Father’s will, and she saw that he was returned to her safely. It was the memory of the finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple which stayed Mary’s faith through the sorrows of the first Holy Saturday.
Mary, model of all believers, Pray for us who have recourse to thee!
D
dee_burk
Guest
I also think there is a message to all of us who have “lost” Jesus in our lives that he is there in the temple waiting for us to seek him.
po18guy
Well-known member
“How was it that you sought (searched for) Me?” (Luke 2:49) All Israel would later inquire as to whether John the Baptist was the Messiah or not (Luke 3:15). Even Herod, after killing John, thought that Jesus was a resurrected John (Mark 6:16). But, years earlier, our Lord had said, “Did you (Israel) not know that I (long awaited Messiah) must be in my Father’s house?” In other words, where else would His Father send Him, that the devout - indeed the whole world, might know that He was the One? The world looked to the temple, and hating it, had already defiled and destroyed it before Solomon (son of David) raised it back up (1 Kings 6). The world looked upon the temple of Jesus’ Body (John 2:21) and attempted to destroy it also on the cross, but it was raised up again, becoming our Treassure in heaven, where no earthly corruption or power could touch it (Matthew 6:20, Luke 12:33). John the Baptist was in the wilderness, while our Lord taught daily in the temple. Of the two, only one entered Jerusalem form the east, riding a donkey, while the masses shouted “Hosanna to the Son of David”. Yet, they did not understand that Christ was the new and eternal Temple, since Solomon’s temple still stood. However, Jesus foretold its fall as well. I love the scriptures. Fulfillment of prophecy early in Jesus’ life is prophetic of yet other prophecies which He would also fulfill.
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Ed_Silvia
Guest
These are all good answers. I was thinking about this the other day.
But, first let me say I wanted to know as much as possible about St. Mary’s life with our Redeemer so when I discovered Mary Agreda’s City of God I read it through. What I gathered from this event Our divine Lord was testing His patents. We can only image the excruciating pain and self doubt they felt as any parent would. But it’s what He does. We see it over and over in the lives of the St.'s. He loves to hide from us or at least His presence.
The thought I had the other day was this episode is so typical that almost all if not all youngsters at some point rebel against authority/parents. He as much as told them “what’s the problem I need to get going with my Father’s work” But, one heartfelt complaint from St. Mary and He (The creator of all things) was subject to them after that.
But, first let me say I wanted to know as much as possible about St. Mary’s life with our Redeemer so when I discovered Mary Agreda’s City of God I read it through. What I gathered from this event Our divine Lord was testing His patents. We can only image the excruciating pain and self doubt they felt as any parent would. But it’s what He does. We see it over and over in the lives of the St.'s. He loves to hide from us or at least His presence.
The thought I had the other day was this episode is so typical that almost all if not all youngsters at some point rebel against authority/parents. He as much as told them “what’s the problem I need to get going with my Father’s work” But, one heartfelt complaint from St. Mary and He (The creator of all things) was subject to them after that.
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