How Do You Deal With Negative Catholic History?

[ThuriferAcolyte]

How do you apologists deal with explaining the horrible things that have occurred in the Catholic Church’s history to those that are attempting to either attack it, or use such events as evidence that it can’t possibly be Christ’s Church? I’m not really talking about the abuse scandals, but things that occurred during medieval times. How do we differentiate between the Church as an institution carrying out heinous acts, and individuals in the Church (I personally don’t care if its a lowly parishoner or the Pope, though you’d assume that he’d…“know better”, so to say) carrying out heinous acts? It is very difficult for me to articulate an understanding of these events, and who did what. My first task will be to read more about these events, however I was wondering how you all deal with this.

Generally, the people that bring such matters up are members of churches that are much more recent in history, have MUCH less members, and thus it’s easier to point fingers. However that still isn’t enough for me to explain how the Church Jesus founded could act in certain ways at times in the past.

Your opinions, and any resources you believe are helpful, are appreciated. Also, please let me know if I need to further explain my point, since I had a little difficulty explaining it, though I’m sure you understand what I’m getting at.

 

[Eucharisted]

Appeal to Ridicule, Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, and Biased Sample are the fallacies usually used. Just call the people out on it.

 

[HyeDetroit]

I would say look at the history of any nation. There is always going to be something that they did wrong. Look at the history of any person, we all have sinned.

The Church has appologized for their wrongs and asked for forgiveness, which is a Christian virtue.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone…

 

[imkingdad]

You need to point out that No one person ( save Christ) is the Catholic or any Church.
Ask them if they’d like their Church to be judged by their last Adulterous Pastor?

Have Men done heinous things? YES! Across the eons & across every Religion & type of Government imaginable. I guess that would make all men & women guilty using that flawed logic.

Do we throw the Baby out with the bath water?? NO. So ask them to judge themselves & their own Predecessors by these same standards before attacking you & the Church.

 

[DOShea]

If a single sin or sinner invalidates the whole system - any system - then we can all pack up and go home, your critics included. Jesus was of the seed of David, a murderer and adulterer… so regardless of Jesus’ divinity it doesn’t matter. The bloodline is spoiled and that’s that. Using their logic.

Most of the time people who make those claims have simply heard it and are repeating it without any perspective. We’ve heard it all before - crusades, inquisitions, burning at the stake, etc. etc. Of course none of the heretics they burned count. They forget some of their own bloodlines probably run back to those same crusaders.

Most times you won’t make a dent even if you present them the truth, sins and all. They aren’t bringing those things up to learn, it’s their intent to diminish another faith is all.

 

[1ke]

What heinous acts would those be?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

How do you apologists deal with explaining the horrible things that have occurred in the Catholic Church’s history to those that are attempting to either attack it, or use such events as evidence that it can’t possibly be Christ’s Church? I’m not really talking about the abuse scandals, but things that occurred during medieval times. How do we differentiate between the Church as an institution carrying out heinous acts, and individuals in the Church (I personally don’t care if its a lowly parishoner or the Pope, though you’d assume that he’d…“know better”, so to say) carrying out heinous acts? It is very difficult for me to articulate an understanding of these events, and who did what. My first task will be to read more about these events, however I was wondering how you all deal with this.

Generally, the people that bring such matters up are members of churches that are much more recent in history, have MUCH less members, and thus it’s easier to point fingers. However that still isn’t enough for me to explain how the Church Jesus founded could act in certain ways at times in the past.

Your opinions, and any resources you believe are helpful, are appreciated. Also, please let me know if I need to further explain my point, since I had a little difficulty explaining it, though I’m sure you understand what I’m getting at.

If they actually happened, make sure they are accurately understood, in the context of the time they happened.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Does the Church have sinners in it? Of course it does! The Church is a hospital for sinners.

I would point out that despite the sins of some of its members, the Church has been proclaiming the same truth for the past 2,000 years. After all, the Church produced saints like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Mother Teresa, and Pope John Paul II despite the horrible sinfulness of some of its members. How could it do that if it were totally corrupt?

 

[regression]

Well, in the past I have heard people differentiate between individuals who sins vs the Church as an organization.

For example, a priest who is a pedophile. He is a sinner. You can find pedophiles in every occupation, race, gender, etc. I do not have difficulty explaining this and usually the person I am talking to does not see this as the Church “sinning”.

Now, if the bishop learns of this and moves the priest rather than turn him into the authorities, now two people have sinned. If another priest learns of this and does not report it, three people have sinned. So at what point do these people individual sinners because part of a larger institution or organization?

Not sure if I made myself clear or not, but the latter example is what I have a hard time explaining.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

What heinous acts would those be?

In my last conversation, they didn’t mention anything specific, just that the Catholic Church murdered and tortured “millions” of people, so it can’t be “the Church”. I told them that you need to separate the acts of the institution from the acts of individuals, especially from the state (country). Obviously the Spanish Inquisition comes up a lot, and the Medieval Inquisitions.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

If they actually happened, make sure they are accurately understood, in the context of the time they happened.

Yes, this is what I need to do, go over these issues historically. If you know of any resources that can help in understanding the historical context of the medieval issues of the Church, that would be great.

 

[fultonfish]

Study them in great detail and in great depth.

You may find that many most / all ] of the negative aspects are false.

But Catholics in general and the Church specifically are subject to constant attacks that can only be described as vicious.

And, BY THE WAY, that is the reason why Karl Keating founded Catholic Answers to start with. He was just so outraged by the falsehoods and distortions against the Church, that he felt the need to respond in a thorough and rational fashion.

Seems to me that the Holy Spirit has been generous to Karl, judging from the success that Catholic Answers has had.

 

[VociMike]

In my last conversation, they didn’t mention anything specific, just that the Catholic Church murdered and tortured “millions” of people, so it can’t be “the Church”. I told them that you need to separate the acts of the institution from the acts of individuals, especially from the state (country). Obviously the Spanish Inquisition comes up a lot, and the Medieval Inquisitions.

The current defensible estimates for the number of deaths in the Spanish Inquisition (all 300+ years of it) are 3000-5000. And yet many who attack the Church claim 50-100 million deaths!!! This goes beyond misunderstanding into grotesque dishonesty.

In general, when somebody says “because the Church did X it can’t be the true Church” I ask them where the line is. How many people could have died in the Spanish Inquisition and still have the Church be the true Church?

I also agree with using the examples of the Old Testament. At what point did the Jewish people, by their bad behavior, prove themselves to not really be the people of God? Of course the answer is NEVER.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

The current defensible estimates for the number of deaths in the Spanish Inquisition (all 300+ years of it) are 3000-5000. And yet many who attack the Church claim 50-100 million deaths!!! This goes beyond misunderstanding into grotesque dishonesty.

In general, when somebody says “because the Church did X it can’t be the true Church” I ask them where the line is. How many people could have died in the Spanish Inquisition and still have the Church be the true Church?

I also agree with using the examples of the Old Testament. At what point did the Jewish people, by their bad behavior, prove themselves to not really be the people of God? Of course the answer is NEVER.

Thank you!

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Study them in great detail and in great depth.

You may find that many most / all ] of the negative aspects are false.

But Catholics in general and the Church specifically are subject to constant attacks that can only be described as vicious.

And, BY THE WAY, that is the reason why Karl Keating founded Catholic Answers to start with. He was just so outraged by the falsehoods and distortions against the Church, that he felt the need to respond in a thorough and rational fashion.

Seems to me that the Holy Spirit has been generous to Karl, judging from the success that Catholic Answers has had.

Agreed, Catholic Answers is a very helpful resource, for both Catholics and non-Catholics.

 

[1ke]

In my last conversation, they didn’t mention anything specific, just that the Catholic Church murdered and tortured “millions” of people, so it can’t be “the Church”. I told them that you need to separate the acts of the institution from the acts of individuals, especially from the state (country). Obviously the Spanish Inquisition comes up a lot, and the Medieval Inquisitions.

The first thing they would have to do is provide proof that what the alledge actually occurred, which they cannot.

The Spanish Inquisition, and the other Inquisitions, and the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (which is the new name for the Office of the Inquisition) are nothing to be ashamed of. They have been maligned by many, but the truth of them is nothing like what is batted about-- such as your friend’s allegation of “millions” killed.

The Inquisition had a very important purpose and still does. The fact that governments no longer excecute people for heresy (well, non-Islamic ones anyway) means that the current investigations and determinations result in ecclesial centures only, without any civil/criminal penalties.

Those who criticize the Inquisition fail to understand the ***political systems ***of the day. Catholics living in non-Catholic territories could be killed for the practice of the Catholic faith because they were committing treason against their ruler just as the reverse was true for non-Catholic Christians in Catholic lands.

In those days, you had to practice the religion of your ruler, period. Lots of people were killed in Calivinist, Lutheran, and Church of England lands who were practicing a faith other than the one of the state-- just ask the Anabaptists.

This person fails to understand history and politics-- that rulers had absolute power over their subjects and religious dissent was a capital crime against the state-- as much as they fail to understand religion.

 

[fultonfish]

When I responded to a grotesque slander against the Catholic Church, I was flatly told that I was being divisive.

In another situation when sent a letter, I responded with facts, and was told they threw my letter out without reading because what I wrote was “garbage”. Their words.

So, I just keep reading and keep studying and keep responding politely.

And I pray a daily enhanced Rosary because sometimes that’s all I can do.

[An “enhanced” Rosary has extra decades in it. And I “aim” the extra prayers at friends, relatives, opponents, at all the people who I have ever prayed for and whose names have long ago faded, and at the Holy Spirit. I confessed that I “beat up” the Holy Spirit because I want the Holy Spirit to get more involved, differently involved, more loudly involved, and more quantitatively involved, to inspire more people, etc in new and creative ways. In our new day, modern way Battle of Lepanto. Even though the Holy Spirit is Infinite and is God, and was left “behind” to be with us. So I just keep praying until I am exhausted and I need to respond to satisfy my daily caffein deficit.]

I think I will pray to and for Fulton Sheen. So that he gets canonized quickly. And I will take out my Fulton Sheed CD’s and DVD’s and video tapes and recorded talks and get reinspired and reinvigorated.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Well, in the past I have heard people differentiate between individuals who sins vs the Church as an organization.

For example, a priest who is a pedophile. He is a sinner. You can find pedophiles in every occupation, race, gender, etc. I do not have difficulty explaining this and usually the person I am talking to does not see this as the Church “sinning”.

Now, if the bishop learns of this and moves the priest rather than turn him into the authorities, now two people have sinned. If another priest learns of this and does not report it, three people have sinned. So at what point do these people individual sinners because part of a larger institution or organization?

Not sure if I made myself clear or not, but the latter example is what I have a hard time explaining.

The Church might be said to sin when more than 50% of the members participate in the sin. That would be 50% of 1.2B or 600 Million people?

 

[regression]

The Church might be said to sin when more than 50% of the members participate in the sin. That would be 50% of 1.2B or 600 Million people?

Yeah, I would imagine finding the cut off point is a bit difficult. But 50% illustrates the point that that is a rather large number…

 

[fultonfish]

Karl Keating has arranged for Catholic Answers to get classics in Catholicism to be reprinted so that today’s inquiring minds will have adequate resources.

I am constantly blown away at the distorted and outright false and erroneous “stuff” that people think and believe and it gets worse instead of better, it seems to me.

So I am increasingly grateful that Karl Keating and Catholic Answers have such great reading available. You can buy the books and magazines and tracts or, if money is especially tight, you can read a lot of it directly on line here at Catholic Answers. Click around on the button marked “Encyclopedia”. It is fabulous.

The more you read, the better off you are.