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Abba
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Hello Robert,
As I wrote before, I do understand what you are saying and I appreciate it. Many people tonight went to bed hungry and tomorrow some of those children will die of malnutrition. Meanwhile, those who are able to help go about their business in every day life seemingly without caring - without being outraged.
It’s like you are taking a flashlight and pointing it to the problem of world hunger. Imagine everyone else just for a little while in the dark and having to see where that flashlight is lighting - the starving children of the world - agonizing, in pain, and in a dreadful state overall. If the reality of the suffering of the children could be brought home and people become more conscious of the reality of the situation - I think a lot more people would actively participate in minimizing/eliminating world hunger.
Today, I saw a picture of Nazi soldiers raising a Nazi flag in the Acropolis of Athens. I paused and looked at that picture for a moment and considered human nature. The soldiers are just going about their business while millions of people below suffered with the thought of being taken over, losing their country, their freedom etc… The soldiers, can do it and be fine because they adopted an ideal. This is why propaganda works, you click all the right button and you can manipulate a society. When I first read about your preoccupation with the hungry children of the world, I considered, the alienation, social paradigm, human nature etc… these factors certainly contribute.
It’s a difficult topic too because people can get defensive. Just like with abortion, somehow, in their minds people understand that they are justified and react defensive when the contrary is presented. A justification, which affects not only abortion but also same sex marriage, which is grounded in the acceptance of mainstream (pressured) thinking.
People should not be all bunched together. There are people that are aware and have the matter of world hunger very present in their lives. These people contribute to the extent that they are able. I think that includes every one participating on this thread. On the other hand, there are many who are not aware and the idea is a distant thought. Maybe that is another way that you can contribute - by raising awareness.
It’s a delicate topic you are bringing up. Some years ago, a priest started speaking in a wealthy parish to the parishioners about how they needed to give more to the poor. The parishioners got defensive and the priest was replaced. I don’t think the way to go about getting people to want to focus on the problem of the starvation of innocent children ( I am not saying it is what you are doing) is not by pressuring people nor making them feel guilty etc… I think, IMHO, that it is by bring a change of heart. Perhaps, one way to achieve this is by making the problem more present to people.
All that said, there are many injustices and bad things going on in the world. Some of us a horrified with some more than others. But, we cannot let the suffering and injustice in the world make us bitter. In the end, we need to put our trust in God. God knows everything and He knows what is going on. We cannot create an earthly paradise, as we have a fallen nature. So, we need to come at peace with the understanding that until kingdom come, we will have the poor, the suffering and the injustice.
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field…Matthew 13:24-30
This is not to say that we should fold our hands and sit back. But, it is to say, that we need to put our trust in Our Lord Jesus Christ. God is Love and Mercy itself and He knows everything. God respects our free will and we have a fallen nature. To the extent that we work out our salvation we contribute to the good in the world.
The main point that I am trying to make here is that we need to accept that there will always be calamities, crisis, suffering, injustice, the poor etc… You are deeply touched by the starvation of innocent children, it is a great injustice, others are touched by the situations of victims of other human consequences, abortion, victims of unjust wars, abandonment and the institutionalized killing of the elderly, etc… but, we need to be at peace with the bad things of the world putting our hope in the Lord.
That hope can energize us to work to do good. God expects us to work and to help and contribute in whatever way we can to alleviate the bad things in the world. So, if we focus, it is to consider what we can do about it and get to work before the returns… remembering the parable of the talent. (Matthew 25:14-30 )
Peace
Abba
"Harmful economic systems are the principal cause of poverty and hunger. " worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htmhttp://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm
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thistle
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Popular word you. I wish I was permitted to copy and paste what you said in another thread into this but sadly I am not. That would show who has been doing the slandering.
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mgoforth
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Having read her autobiography, I would say she was joyful in both ways. She clearly loved the natural beauty of her surroundings and the people around her, but she did so in the correct way - by directing all the joy she felt from “worldly” things toward God as praise and thanksgiving for creating them. Joy for the cross is certainly a more perfect joy, but you seem to propose an either/or duality that doesn’t actually exist. We can love this world we live in, as long as we do so through our love for God as its author.
“God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning–the sixth day.” Genesis 1:31
If God sees his creation as good, who am I to hate it? I would only hate things that don’t come from God, such as greed leading to incredible disparities of access to basic human needs (getting back to the original point of the post)
. It’s wrong, however, to hate everything else in the world just because some things in the world are evil. Many pleasures we experience here are natural and good because they come from God’s design. They are God’s blessings that He gives us to show his love. Why would I refuse those things?
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Robert_Sock
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NATURAL IMPULSEHaving read her autobiography, I would say she was joyful in both ways. She clearly loved the natural beauty of her surroundings and the people around her, but she did so in the correct way - by directing all the joy she felt from “worldly” things toward God as praise and thanksgiving for creating them. Joy for the cross is certainly a more perfect joy, but you seem to propose an either/or duality that doesn’t actually exist. We can love this world we live in, as long as we do so through our love for God as its author.
“God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning–the sixth day.” Genesis 1:31
If God sees his creation as good, who am I to hate it? I would only hate things that don’t come from God, such as greed leading to incredible disparities of access to basic human needs (getting back to the original point of the post)
THE good impulse (yetser tov) and the evil impulse (yetser ra) are pictured in Jewish literature as wrestling in perpetual conflict within the heart of man. Satan is usually identified with the yetser ha-ra, the evil impulse. In the book of Job, Satan’s function is described as that of testing the sincerity of men’s characters. In Talmudic literature, Satan’s function is to strengthen man’s moral sense by leading him into temptation. It has been said that every man living shall assuredly meet with an hour of temptation, a certain critical hour, which shall more especially try his mettle.
According to a midrashic statement (Genesis Rabbah 9:9), the existence of the yetser ha-ra in the heart of man and the struggle to overcome it lends high value to the good that emerges from the inner battle. The two conflicting impulses, the good and bad tendencies, are said to be implanted in man as a consequence of his having been formed from the dust and endowed with a soul (Genesis 2:7).
According to rabbinic thinking, the evil impulse is to be found in man at birth; the good impulse begins to develop when he is thirteen years old. The teachings of the Torah are referred to as the antidote to the yetser ha-ra. Similarly, Ben Sira (21:11) states: “The man who keeps the Law controls his natural tendency.”
In commenting on the two yods in the word " ", (Genesis 2:7), the rabbis declare that God created both the yetser tov and the yetser ra (Berakhoth 61a). The command to love God “with all your heart” they interpret to mean “with both your impulses” (Berakhoth Ma), since both human elements can be employed in the service of God. “Were it not for the yetser ha-ra, no man would build a home or get married or follow an occupation” (Genesis Rabbah 9:9). **The phrase “very good” (Genesis 1:31) is therefore explained, as alluding to the yetser ha-ra, frequently used in the sense of the productive urge.
**
Taken from the Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts
Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
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Robert_Sock
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Why can’t you quote me? I’m most interested in knowing what you consider slander!
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mgoforth
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Thanks for the explanation of what Jews believe. Since neither of us are Jewish though (I’m assuming you’re not) why would this be persuasive to either of us?
Besides, what you posted seems to imply that God created the urge to do evil…which I flatly reject. He created us with free will, but that’s not at all the same thing as Him implanting an evil impulse within us. Our Heavenly Father wouldn’t do that.
“If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” Matthew 7:11
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Robert_Sock
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To view the world as all good or all evil is to pervert reality. I never intended that we should never be joyful. Indeed, a smile from a child can fill one with joy. But when to comes to the starvation of innocent children, one ought to hold the world in disdain. It’s not either or, but both are normal and in perfect keeping of our faith. To say I’m going to feel joy, and no disdain toward the starvation of children, is a sin against Christ’s second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.
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dshix
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And no one here has ever said that.
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thistle
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As you are asking I hope the moderators will see that you have asked me to say it in your thread and that I had pointed out I was not supposed to do that. Do you give me permission to quote you from another thread?
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Robert_Sock
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dshix
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So you don’t want the public to see your slander? If you are so confident that you are clean, why not let us all see it?
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Robert_Sock
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LOVE, brother!
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Abba
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Hear, hear!Thanks for the explanation of what Jews believe. Since neither of us are Jewish though (I’m assuming you’re not) why would this be persuasive to either of us?
Besides, what you posted seems to imply that God created the urge to do evil…which I flatly reject. He created us with free will, but that’s not at all the same thing as Him implanting an evil impulse within us. Our Heavenly Father wouldn’t do that.
“If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” Matthew 7:11
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...aZ3N62TSaqlLxr-EdlXbjlRFL6E8ycCpu9SctrUTlnQHA
Who cares about yin and yang when discussing in a Catholic context - amongst Catholics? We need to follow the light of Truth- the teachings of Holy Mother Church. It’s like being on the correct road and referring to a road that is the wrong way (contrary teaching) to justify deviating a little from the correct road. It’s an invalid argument.
However, no one here is perfect and we all make mistakes. I am number one or right up there most imperfect here, just take a look at my last post which lacks constructive development, proper grammar etc… We are here to learn, share, guide, help and pray for one another. Mr. Robert Sock is our brother and if he has made a mistake, let’s try to discuss it with more charity please. I am not saying to ignore the errors if there are some, but I think there can be more charity here. We don’t know one another’s personal life and problems and it’s good to be considerate and respectful.
Peace
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Abba
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I wasn’t aware of these Jewish teachings.
Pre Planned Wars according to The General Of The United States…
youtube.com/watch?v=c-Lor8mchKg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...jlMLDjU7uzJSiIwO2jQySnwJ6gDbWTruozS9YUHCOuiJc
Peace
‘Impulse’, it is self evident that good and evil cannot be defined in such a limited way. Humans do not act in a good or evil way 100% out of impulse. Unfortunately, there are many masterminds that calculate and plan the most horrible of evils, destruction and injustice. As I type this, masterminds are silently applauding their success with Syria, infiltrate, bribe and empower the appossing sector, armed them and get the enemy to kill each other off (military tactic 101). Then, when people start suffering and things go as planned - blame it on them. These horrors are not committed out of impulse but coldly calculated. the controlled media entertains people with stories and jokes while Syria and her people are destroyed and her king decapitated.
Pre Planned Wars according to The General Of The United States…
youtube.com/watch?v=c-Lor8mchKg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...jlMLDjU7uzJSiIwO2jQySnwJ6gDbWTruozS9YUHCOuiJc
So, up to the age of thirteen there are no good ‘impulses’? Do you agree with this?
How is this in harmony with Catholic teachings?
Peace
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Robert_Sock
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I’m not a Jewish scholar, so I do not know if my responses are consistent with Jewish teachings. But I would say that there must be an evil impulse in the planning of an unjust war.
Again, in all fairness, we need a Jewish scholar to interpret this for us. I personally have great faith in Jewish teachings. It sounds like the good impulse is closely related to the development of the conscience (superego) from within psychology. Along this line of thought, I doubt that the good impulse was ever meant to account for all positive behavior, but specific behavior that result from a more developed morality.
allpsych.com/psychology101/ego.html
According to the above link, the superego develops by the age of five.
faqs.org/health/topics/4/Conscience.html
According to Kohlberg, ‘conventional morality’ is developed in pre-teens through adulthood, and is explained in the above link. So, it may be that the good impulses are triggered through one’s more developed morality, and goes beyond good behavior that is built on simple rewards and punishments (this is more consistent with Jewish thought).
I do not think that this was ever meant to be in harmony with Catholic teachings, and I do not know of any truly Catholic teachings that are parallel. Again, the parallel teachings, if they are to be found, is in psychology.
LOVE!
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Abba
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Well, good scholarly work necessarily entails expressing the thoughts to be communicated clearly. The author is using the english word ‘impulse’ and that usually means:
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a : inspiration, motivation
b : a force so communicated as to produce motion suddenly
c : incentive
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a : the act of driving onward with sudden force : impulsion
b : motion produced by such an impulsion : impetus
c : a wave of excitation transmitted through tissues and especially nerve fibers and muscles that results in physiological activity or inhibition
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a : a sudden spontaneous inclination or incitement to some usually unpremeditated action
b : a propensity or natural tendency usually other than rational
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a the product of the average value of a force and the time during which it acts : the change in momentum produced by the force
I think the everyday reader would understand by ‘impulse’ : a sudden spontaneous inclination or incitement to some usually unpremeditated action. If that is not what the authors/scholars meant to communicate than they should have defined their terms. I remember reading Sartre (or Kierkegaard), who in one of his books went on and on and one and on about what the terms/words he would be using meant. If I remember correctly, I was in chapter three of the book and he was still defining his terms.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...8B3FbcwMZAaysLPHMnzbaNBEPvLpgKR9BiGOCfocW8y_Q
If I am writing about ‘apples’ and use the word ‘pear’ to mean ‘apple’; my reader is not oblige to defend my writings by alluding that I meant ‘pear’. So, at prima facie; the idea that good and evil can be defined and limited to good or bad impulse - fails.
“scholars” are expected to write clearly and define their words and terms if they differ from common usage.
That said; in your quote ‘impulse’ is connected to ‘tendencies’ and the root of ‘good’ to sexual desires/urges and activities, hence, the age of 13. Even if we through these elements in and that provide by Rabbi Samuel H. Dresner and Rabbi Byron L. Sherwin in Judasim: The way of Sanctification; where they use ‘impulse’ to mean ‘instinct’ - all this profoundly is in disagreement with Catholic teachings. Teachings, mind you, which are fundamental and of outmost importance. Those are, for instance, the teaching of good and evil and the nature man and his relationship to God.
There are a lot of ideas out there, but what is important is to evaluate them and shaft them in accordance to Catholic teachings. Don’t you think?
I have great faith in Catholic teaching. I appreciate Judaism under the light of the teachings of Holy Mother Church. The ideas and beliefs of Judaism that are contrary to the teachings of Holy Mother Church; I disregard. Now, about learning the root meaning of words, getting a better understanding of the culture of biblical times etc… I welcome it. But, I most certainly do not idealize for any reason what so ever, nor due to political and main stream pressure - Judaism. In other words, there is a place for me in my heart and soul where the line is drawn clearly.
Kohlber, was piggy back riding on Jean Piaget’s back and he failed to be outspoken about it.
It may be so, but it is very inconsistent with Catholic teachings. This is the same as to say that youngster below the age of 13 are amoral. Children are growing and developing but they are still moral or immoral.
Robert, what do you think about the whole idea of shafting? I think you are a man of faith and so how do you proceed? How to you continue to develop and grow spiritually? It wouldn’t make much sense to do so by opening yourself up to every possible thought each time you encounter them new or a new, right? You have a foundation of faith and faith knowledge on which you can build upon, right? What do you do when you encounter an idea or thought that is fundamentally contrary to the teachings of the Church?
Peace, brother, please pray for me.
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Youth is no barrier to holiness, and mere children can become saints. The call to holiness begins at Baptism; we do not have to wait for old age and grey hair to serve God. Youthful saints tell us something about sanctity, and their example is especially luminous as they dedicate their young lives to God. Youngsters need flesh and blood heroes to admire, whose courage, determination and great love of God and his Church, have been their incentive to overcome temptation and difficulties. The example of the saints counters that of the straw idols that are all too often the only ones they are offered nowadays.
catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/child-saints-as-role-models-for-children/
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Robert_Sock
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!
When I see any inconsistency between two of the world’s great religions, I take note and try to ‘rotate’ each view to see if I’m missing out on where each view is coming from. For example, in Judaism, the body and soul are seen as being separate. In Catholicism, the body and soul are seen as a unity. Who’s right and who’s wrong? I say that they are both correct! The problem is if the body and soul are really dependent upon each other, or are they relatively independent of each other? Well, Catholics do need to account for the fact that in Heaven, the soul will exist independently of the body, which is consistent with the Jewish view that they are separate entities.
When you think you see differences between Judaism and Catholicism, take note and look more deeply into how each view was developed; was one perhaps a symbolic interpretation while the other is more literal? A most common error in comparing the two religions.
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Abba
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No harm in that, as long as you know where you are standing.
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