How do you discern a spouse using only courtship?

[siena_avila]

Hello. I’m new, so forgive me if this is long. At 25, I have been feeling the attraction to marriage, and not just because I don’t want to be lonely or want to have kids. I truly believe it’s the best way I can serve God using the gifts He’s given me.

I’ve had a few short-term “relationships” (I believe anytime you interact with any person for a extended amount of time, you have entered into a relationship) that went nowhere and now I’m praying for the right way to find who God intends for me. Lately, I’ve been attracted to the idea of courtship, and my roommate’s book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” made so much sense and diagnosed what went wrong in previous relationships.

Courtship preserves chastity, which I’ll admit was a struggle (but not abstinence. gotta love Catholics-only dating sites) in previous attempts at relationship, despite limiting myself to Catholics on reputable dating sites and it basically sums up the way I envisioned dating: talking, laughing, praying and learning about each other without pressure for anything.

But I have two huge doubts I need help overcoming.

1. Some modes recommend not spending any time alone together or even when going out in groups to not focus on each other too much. I get what that recommendation protects people from, but I keep thinking that that process hinders deep communication that will be necessary for the long haul and doesn’t prepare you for the realities of a decades-long marriage (communicating about life-changing issues, overcoming the rough patches, and seeing people’s true, private behaviors/emotional responses and not just what they show in public).

2)My best relationships have been with guys who are friends, but in modern terms, we’ve “friend-zoned” each other, meaning there’s no romantic desire or interest in pursuing a potential spousal relationship. A lot of definitions of courtship sound like you have a guy friend or, even worse, treating the guy like your brother (Grad school has forever tainted my mind with all the Greek psychosis *that *can cause). So how do you make sure that when you’re acting just like friends, you don’t inevitably “friend-one” each other, especially when (most likely) both people have only known conventional dating?

Thanks for reading and any commentary you can provide!

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Well first you need to find a man who understands courtship.

If you find a man who does then all you will need to do is allow him lead the way until either he asks you to marry him and you then enter into the engagement stage or you or he decides you are not a good match and ends the courtship, the end of the courtship also marking the end of any social relationship whatsoever.

The main thing about a courtship is that both parties are from the beginning focused on marriage, the whole aim of courtship is marriage, that is the major difference between courting and dating if there is not at least some interest in marrying each other from the beginning you are not actually in a courtship.

Secondly don’t have male friends, during the times of traditional courtship it was very, very unusual not to mention a cause of scandal for a woman to hang out with a man who she was not courting, if you tell the man from the beginning your not interested in just been his friend and if that’s all your going to be you don’t want to even waste your time socialising with him you will save yourself a lot of wasted time by men who aren’t ready to make commitments.

I know this second one is very difficult for people to accept today but it is very helpful in my experience.

I advice you to purchase the Catholic Girl’s Guide by Father Lasance it will give you the best advice you can find on courtship and every other area of your life as a lady, its an old book so you can probably read it online as well. Below is an excerpt:

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

"1. "To you, Christian maiden, having attained a suitable age, feel yourself called to the married state, and receive offers of marriage, the significant questions arise: Whom should I marry or to whom ought I to become engaged, and to what ought I principally to look ? I will endeavour to give practical answers to these questions.

1. Always look in the first place to religion, virtue and uprightness. Never make an intimate
   acquaintance with a man of whose antecedents you know nothing, and in regard to whom you are unable to obtain reliable information. On no account allow yourself to be lulled into security by fair speeches, solemn assurances, and brilliant promises on the part of a stranger, or of one who has lived only for a few months in the place where you live. I entreat you to believe me when I tell you that it is impossible to be too cautious in regard to strangers. Many a young wife has prepared unhappiness for both herself and her parents by carelessness in this respect, and by allowing herself to be over-persuaded by a flattering and insinuating suitor.
2. Therefore I once again repeat: look only to virtue, uprightness, devotedness to our Holy Church and genuine religious sentiments. If you hear any- thing indicating the contrary from a reliable source or notice anything for yourself, act as did a young French lady. She was engaged to be married, and was spending the evening before her weddingday in the company of her betrothed and some relatives. He began to make jocular and contemptuous remarks about religion. His intended gently rebuked him, but he jestingly replied that a man of the world could not afford to be so particular in such matters.

Grieved and shocked, Elizabeth (that was the young lady’s name) declared that she would not marry him. " For," she said, “he who docs not Iove God will not love his wife truly and faithfully.” Nor could the united persuasions of her parents and her lover induce her to swerve from her resolution. And I think she was perfectly right, let her maxim be
yours also.

1. Never become engaged to a man who is careless about fulfilling his religious duties, who absent’s himself from Mass on days of obligation without sufficient cause, or who mocks at priests and matters connected with religion. Never keep company with a young fellow who likes to spend his time in taverns, drinking and gambling; who keeps late hours at night, neglects his work, or one who has a very violent temper. Give up at once a man who does not respect your innocence, but allows himself to take liberties and to be unduly
   familiar with you.

Let innocence be your greatest treasure, your only source of pride, and promptly turn away from any one who with poisonous breath or profane hand would tarnish the brightness of your purity.

1. You must also consider in choosing a husband the external circumstances of your suitor, and whether the contrast between his position and your own is not too great. Too great a disparity of age is to be avoided; a marriage rarely turns out well when the wife is much older than the husband.

Never permit your marriage tie to be degraded into a mere business transaction. I chanced to read of an instance in a newspaper the other day. A very’ wealthy man wanted to get a son-in-law still richer than himself. He met with a young man to suit his ideas, and proposed to give him, in the event of his marrying his daughter, a very handsome sum as her dowry. The gentleman, however, who probably loved money more than he loved the girl, demanded a still larger sum. The squabble which ensued was a long one; at length the bargain was satisfactorily concluded, and the wedding took place. The young lady does not appear to have been more sensible or noble-minded than her
parent; or else she would have said to him: “Father, you can do with your money what you please, but this sordid fellow shall not have me! I want a husband who wishes to marry me, not my money!”

1. You may perhaps ask whether you are not to
   pay any heed to the question of money or income
   in selecting a husband. Most certainly you are;
   no sensible girl ought to marry a man whose calling
   and pecuniary circumstances do not afford a guarantee
   that he will be able to support a family decently
   without help from outside. On the other hand no
   prudent and sagacious young woman would give
   her hand to a man merely because he is rich, or
   — this I must add — only on account of 1.) His good
   looks or attractive manners. But if two suitors
   are equally good and religious it is quite justifiable
   to choose the richer and more pleasing.
2. Another objection you may raise is this: i.
   young girls are to be so critical and fastidious
   in the choice of a husband they will end by getting
   none at all! And in my opinion it would be a very
   good thing for a great many if this should prove
   to be the case ! However, good, clever young women
   have nothing to fear.
3. In conclusion let me lay stress upon this
   point: If you are at least twenty years of age you
   may think of becoming engaged, but not before
   then. In the meantime let it be your sole effort
   and aim to love God, to make progress in virtue,
   to be pious and chaste, and to learn all you can

 

[MariaCristina]

OP,

I don’t know how to answer you about courtship. I still have the same questions about it that you do. Although I was in Catholic circles, people weren’t courting- they were dating.

When I was 27, I met my future husband through a Church group. Before we started dating, we went out with the group. We liked each other so much that I tipped off that we should both check out this restaurant. When we did meet at the restaurant, he turned it into a date. We had lots of dates, but of course hung out with our friends, too. We knew within 3 weeks of dating that we were going to get married. So, we slowly prepared ourselves for engagement, which happened seven months later. The engagement was a mutual decision - he did propose, but I knew it was coming.

We were chaste, too.

That said, I know plenty of devout Catholic marrieds who dated instead of courting. I think it’s hard to discern a spouse when only courting, as we live in a society where women are expected to give fair share in a relationship. That is, giving your (name removed by moderator)ut about what you’re looking for, if the relationship is “going somewhere”, etc. I think you’re better off looking for a guy in a group setting, preferrably Catholic, and seeing how you two interact. If there’s interest, you two can have dates, but still hang out with your friends and in other group settings.

I, too, “friend-zoned” my male friends, prior to meeting my husband. They were “friend-zoned” for a reason - I wasn’t interested in them in terms of a relationship. Keep their friendship, but do not try to ignite a spark. Most likely, they’ve 100% friend-zoned you, too.

 

[plato3]

There are good church sponsored marriage prep programs such as engaged encounter Etc. where there are retreats and thoughtful presentations to help you discern a spouse.

 

[MariaCristina]

Plato,
It was my understanding that marriage prep was for people who already were engaged and were prepping for marriage. That is, they already know they have a good spouse.

Can singles and those in relationships attend?

 

[betabeta]

It’s a difficult line to walk… especially in today’s culture!! My fiance and I did not court in the technical sense, but our intention from the beginning of our relationship has been focused on determining if we were meant to marry one another.

Plato,
It was my understanding that marriage prep was for people who already were engaged and were prepping for marriage. That is, they already know they have a good spouse.
Can singles and those in relationships attend?

My (now) fiance and I met together with my deacon (coordinates marriage prep at my parish) and took a FOCCUS inventory and discussed our relationship before we eventually became engaged. Several of our paired peers in the young adult group we’re involved in have done the same and found it to be helpful in focusing their relationship and examining it. I wouldn’t do it right away, maybe at least 6 months in? I’d talk to your parish deacon or whoever oversees the marriage prep program to see if they’d be able to talk with you!

It does depend a lot on the two of you and where you’re both at in the understanding of one another and the vocation that you are both discerning. Our relationship has been longer than most due to my fiance being in school.

Lately, I’ve been attracted to the idea of courtship, and my roommate’s book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” made so much sense and diagnosed what went wrong in previous relationships.

While I did like this book… I felt that it sometimes fell into the Protestant view that humans are at their core bad and cannot control their sinful desires… therefore we must avoid all situations where we might possibly be even a teensy bit tempted. I’m not saying that you should jump heedlessly into those situations and see what happens, but it’s good to approach and deal with the temptation from a more positive mindset vis-a-vis Theology on the Body. Chastity is challenging and I found it especially so at the beginning of my relationship. I’ve come to experience it over the length of my relationship as a choice that both of us are constantly and intentionally making for the good of the other rather than viewing it as a line that one shouldn’t cross. You probably have a good understanding of what your personal challenges are based on your previous relationships!

Other books that I found to be really helpful and approach relationships a bit differently than IKDG are Mary Beth Bonacci’s “Real Love” and Dawn Eden’s “Thrill of the Chaste”

Plus there’s always super duper encylicals like “Love and Responsibility” (JPII) and “God is Love” (BXVI)! I’m a Catholic nerd.

Prayers for you as you discern your vocation

 

[siena_avila]

Thanks, beta! I’m actually off dating sites for Lent and gave up getting into the boy-crazy mindset so that I could improve my prayer life, so that when God’s speaking to me or working thorugh me in any area of my life I KNOW what He’s saying.

 

[betabeta]

That is awesome! It seems you’ve already taken a really good approach to your challenges in the first place. I completely understand how difficult it is to turn off the relationship obssession… I was there up until the end of college and it was frustrating because my younger sister had no trouble at all lining up one boyfriend after another. I eventually managed to mostly let go of feeling sorry for myself and focused on school, work and faith.

If you have an opportunity to find a Catholic young adult group to get involved in, they are really helpful as long as their focus isn’t a meet-market. Heck, you’re probably already involved in one I’m involved in the leadership of one and we try to offer a variety of activities like holy hours, speaker series, service projects, Theology on Tap, sports nights, swing dances… if you happen to live in Minnesota, let me know

I may need to borrow your idea to improve my prayer life… 5 minutes before I fall asleep is probably inadequate. God bless!

 

[siena_avila]

As my friends would say, I’ve got all the tools, just haven’t read the manual. Well, now I’m reading the manual. I’ve joined 3 YA groups over the past few years in Boston (so, very far from MN), which is great, because each one has a different character for a different faith need.

I love swing dancing, and it’s one of our main social activities. none of the groups have the meet market atmosphere. Sometimes I wish they did a little more, though, and that the Church could help us young faithful find each other the way my Mormon’s friend’s church plays yenta in very obvious ways with many socials and fellowship opportunities. Despite my busy life, all the good (but not right in the end) guys I’ve met in the area have been online!

Maybe I just need to work on my flirting after Easter.

Glad I could inspire you! What I do: read a chapter of spiritual reading with silent prayer and journaling after, a 54 day-novena, the Little Black Book of Lenten reflections, and praying over a Jesuit novice a day becuase if there’s one thing that bugs me and I need to get over, it’s that God has started calling some really cute, faithful young guys. As if our dating pool wasn’t limited enough!