How do you eat a symbol?

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Absolutely they do!

And yet, in the engagement of their faculties of reason, and in their appeal to faith… various Episcopal communities reach a variety of conclusions with respect to the Eucharist. What can we glean from this seeming incongruity? After all, the law of non-contradiction has to kick in at some point.

As a Catholic, I conclude that the assurances of protection from error given to the Church do not apply equally to all those who call themselves by the name of ‘Christian’. Therefore, those who appeal to ‘faith and reason’ – outside the Church – have to answer to the variety of conflicting conclusions they reach. 🤷
As someone who is from your faith’s background I do understand where you’re coming from. But for me as someone who does not share your faith, I don’t find the answer all that difficult. TEC has an official view on the Eucharist and I don’t know what each community may or may not conclude. But TEC is more of an open tent than the Catholic Church is. Its inclusiveness and practice of open communion are actually things I absolutely love about it and about some of the mainline-liberal denominations. I find human beings have a limited, finite capacity to understand a being as infinite as God. And we simply reason and believe differently. So unlike faithful Catholics or those of other faiths which also have a more rigid dress code, I’m more than perfectly fine with wearing some gray and being amongst those who do and not only black and white. I do realize though for many they are not as comfortable in gray in their walks as others of us are.
 
I understand why you would think so, but of course I disagree. This isn’t an “emotional” issue to take position on, but rather what God has or has not taught. We disagree on what that is.

Grace and peace,
K
Without evidence it’s pure emotion on your part.
 
Without evidence it’s pure emotion on your part.
I retired from teaching college level logic courses. As such, I feel fairly confident in stating that there is indeed evidence, on all sides. What arguments formed from those evidences, premises, reasons, should cause people on all sides to pray, research, and seek God’s will on this matter. If you wish to think that my decision is based on “pure emotion,” that’s up to you.

Grace and peace,
K
 
I retired from teaching college level logic courses. As such,I feel fairly confident in stating that there is indeed evidence, on all sides. What arguments formed from those evidences, premises, reasons, should cause people on all sides to pray, research, and seek God’s will on this matter. If you wish to think that my decision is based on “pure emotion,” that’s up to you.

Grace and peace,
K
As an observation, when you say,

I feel fairly confident” that is an emotional statement.

OTOH, if you say

I know” based on the evidence presented to me, that ( name the view) is the correct one,** then** THAT is NOT an emotional statement but one based on cognitive reasoning.

in addition

Based on the accuracy of “evidence”, the decision you make can be in actuality 100% wrong or 100% right, based on whether evidence is really evidence…But either way, at the time, the decision is made with cognitive reasoning based on what evidence has been presented to you

As an aside,

As a teacher of logic,
  • you know already, evidence has to be valid, in order to be evidence. Otherwise it’s not evidence at all.
 
As an observation, when you say,

I feel fairly confident” that is an emotional statement.
Steve, that statement and the entirety of my posts on transubstantiation on this site are not one and the same thing, in fact they are completely different. It’s clear this is indeed a subject to which you think you are right on, and I’m not only wrong, but completely and totally illogical, ignorant and perhaps stupid, as such there’s no point in continuing the conversation. I’ve had many wonderful and logical conversations on the topic of transubstantiation here on CAF with members from many backgrounds, so I’m certain this won’t be the last.

I apologize that I apparently can’t make myself understood in this conversation, I’m sure the fault is mine.

Grace and peace,
K
 
Steve, that statement and the entirety of my posts on transubstantiation on this site are not one and the same thing, in fact they are completely different. It’s clear this is indeed a subject to which you think you are right on, and I’m not only wrong, but completely and totally illogical, ignorant and perhaps stupid, as such there’s no point in continuing the conversation. I’ve had many wonderful and logical conversations on the topic of transubstantiation here on CAF with members from many backgrounds, so I’m certain this won’t be the last.

I apologize that I apparently can’t make myself understood in this conversation, I’m sure the fault is mine.

Grace and peace,
K
Kliska,

The highlighted text is what I mean by an emotional answer. I didn’t call you any of that.

I entered the conversation here #131
then I used the same quotes here #135 then I made a correction to my posts because I saw an accuracy issue #132,. Then I was asking you to prove a statement you made to another poster #135 .

I was trying in all of this, to get YOU to provide evidence for YOUR position. If you don’t want to repeat yourself…fine, could you point me to a specific post(s) you made on this subject that you think represents your best answer?
 
Steve, that statement and the entirety of my posts on transubstantiation on this site are not one and the same thing, in fact they are completely different. It’s clear this is indeed a subject to which you think you are right on, and I’m not only wrong, but completely and totally illogical, ignorant and perhaps stupid, as such there’s no point in continuing the conversation. I’ve had many wonderful and logical conversations on the topic of transubstantiation here on CAF with members from many backgrounds, so I’m certain this won’t be the last.

I apologize that I apparently can’t make myself understood in this conversation, I’m sure the fault is mine.

Grace and peace,
K
Kliska

I never said to you what is underlined above. All I’ve ever asked of you is to show evidence for what is behind your view.

Here is what I’ve said to you #131 , #135, #141 , #143

I gave evidence for my view in post 131. I.e. “the real presence” the real topic of the thread #1

Therefore, IMV based on my responses to you, there are 4 opportunities for you, to provide evidence for YOUR view. If you don’t want to repeat yourself…fine, but can you point to a previous post or posts in this thread that reflect your best answer on this topic?

When you say “as such there’s no point in continuing the conversation.” , with all due respect, I’m not seeing where the conversation ever got started.
 
I’ve kept silent for a bit to see how this thread pans out. Now, let me state that there is no issue whether anyone who cannot see or accept that the Eucharist is the indeed the Body of Christ that they don’t have a deep connection with Jesus.

The moment one believes in Christ it’s clearly one’s assurance in that, is indeed God is with them in their love of Him.

However, supposing a non-Christian understands that there is a symbolism alone and accepts a Christians Faith at that, what if they reject the point that millions of Christians also believe that it is indeed God in the flesh who is nourishing them?

How would “symbolic” bread believer answer them?

Let me clarify, further a few days ago, some youths desecrated a Catholic Church in Jerusalem and while the authorities say it was an act of malice and not to be tolerated, the one of the two in question claimed that they did it because Christians were idolators. Thus, can a believer in a symbolic bread defend Catholics?

Thanks in advance.

MJ
 
I’ve kept silent for a bit to see how this thread pans out. Now, let me state that there is no issue whether anyone who cannot see or accept that the Eucharist is the indeed the Body of Christ that they don’t have a deep connection with Jesus.

The moment one believes in Christ it’s clearly one’s assurance in that, is indeed God is with them in their love of Him.

However, supposing a non-Christian understands that there is a symbolism alone and accepts a Christians Faith at that, what if they reject the point that millions of Christians also believe that it is indeed God in the flesh who is nourishing them?

How would “symbolic” bread believer answer them?

Let me clarify, further a few days ago, some youths desecrated a Catholic Church in Jerusalem and while the authorities say it was an act of malice and not to be tolerated, the one of the two in question claimed that they did it because Christians were idolators. **Thus, can a believer in a symbolic bread defend Catholics? **

Thanks in advance.

MJ
The way I’m going to answer isn’t a perfect parallel because obviously I believe those of us that profess the Apostle’s creed together (and mean it) are brothers and sisters in Christ, but I can defend Catholics in the same manner I can defend any other person belonging to any other religion as long as they are not trampling the rights of others. Those Jewish believers trampled the rights of the Catholics to worship in peace. I’d be just as offended, though not as personally offended, if Hindu’s were to trample the rights of Buddhists to worship in peace.

During this age of grace we are not instructed to fight, kill or destroy on God’s behalf, but rather love our enemies and spread the gospel of Jesus.
 
As someone who is from your faith’s background I do understand where you’re coming from. But for me as someone who does not share your faith, I don’t find the answer all that difficult. TEC has an official view on the Eucharist and I don’t know what each community may or may not conclude. But TEC is more of an open tent than the Catholic Church is. Its inclusiveness and practice of open communion are actually things I absolutely love about it and about some of the mainline-liberal denominations. .
As a member of TEC, I find Open Communion to be spiritually and theologically spot on. If we cannot gather at the table together, what sense is there in being Christ’s body? He called us all. Everyone is invited. Everyone is welcome.
 
The moment one believes in Christ it’s clearly one’s assurance in that, is indeed God is with them in their love of Him.
Just a few comments

Believes in Christ, as we know, is not just an intellectual recognition that Jesus exists. And it’s not just a statement someone makes about someone. As we know, It requires ascent and also action i.e. obedience to the one we say we believe in… True?

Love of Him: As Jesus said, love of Him is a condition. John 14:15

Without both belief, and love of Him, (using His definition of one’s love for Him) then where is the assurance of one’s love of Him.?
M:
However, supposing a non-Christian understands that there is a symbolism alone and accepts a Christians Faith at that, what if they reject the point that millions of Christians also believe that it is indeed God in the flesh who is nourishing them? How would “symbolic” bread believer answer them?

Let me clarify, further a few days ago, some youths desecrated a Catholic Church in Jerusalem and while the authorities say it was an act of malice and not to be tolerated, the one of the two in question claimed that they did it because Christians were idolators. Thus, can a believer in a symbolic bread defend Catholics?
Thanks in advance.
MJ
As stated, I’m thinking of 2 scenerios.

  1. *]“Christians” are attacked by non Christians because Christians worship Jesus as God. That is odolatry to anyone who does not believe Jesus is God
    *]because it was a Catholic Church being desecrated, one could continue the explanation with the worship of the Eucharist as well, by Catholics. The consecrated bread and wine is the real presence of Jesus, body blood soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. That TOO is idolatry to non Christians, but also non Catholic Christians as well, who don’t believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

    So there are really 2 types of people at issue here

    1. *]Non Christians who don’t accept Jesus as God
      *]and Non Catholic Christians who don’t accept the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist

      One could also argue

      If Jesus is NOT really and truly present, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist, THEN by worshiping the Eucharist as Catholics do. ( Eucharistic adoration), Catholics are idolaters. And how many times have we Catholics heard THAT charge from non Catholic Christians as well as non Christians?

      I bring all this up because your question covers more ground than what is on the surface
 
If Jesus is NOT really and truly present, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist, THEN by worshiping the Eucharist as Catholics do. ( Eucharistic adoration), Catholics are idolaters. And how many times have we Catholics heard THAT charge from non Catholic Christians as well as non Christians?
You missed a group of people… Catholic Christians. Just curious, have you ever heard a Catholic Christian say that to believe the Eucharist is Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is crazy?

Because I have heard this from Catholic Christians – the point being is the ones that have murmured this disbelief had not gone thru a conversion at the time and believe these peoples salvation is at risk – that is why we all need Baptism in the Holy Spirit and no I am not talking about Baptism.

Good book on the topic:
SOBER INTOXICATION OF THE SPIRIT PART TWO
Born Again of Water and the Spirit
by Raniero Cantalamessa.

In Sober Intoxication of the Spirit Part Two, Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa offers new reflections on living in the power of the Holy Spirit. From personal conversion to ongoing renewal, his focus is on the source of our strengththe living action of the Spirit. Given to us at Baptism and renewed in all the sacraments, the Spirit breathes life daily into the Church and to each believer. This book offers spiritual refreshment to those who are weary, encouraging us all to find restoration and comfort through the Advocate who inspires us.

Mark 9:24 “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
 
You missed a group of people… Catholic Christians. Just curious, have you ever heard a Catholic Christian say that to believe the Eucharist is Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is crazy?
Not in those exact words, but yes I have run into disbelieving Catholics.
 
Just a few comments

Believes in Christ, as we know, is not just an intellectual recognition that Jesus exists. And it’s not just a statement someone

Love of Him: As Jesus said, love of Him is a condition. John 14:15

Without both belief, and love of Him, (using His definition of one’s love for Him) then where is the assurance of one’s love of Him.?

As stated, I’m thinking of 2 scenerios.

  1. *]“Christians” are attacked by non Christians because Christians worship Jesus as God. That is odolatry to anyone who does not believe Jesus is God
    *]because it was a Catholic Church being desecrated, one could continue the explanation with the worship of the Eucharist as well, by Catholics. The consecrated bread and wine is the real presence of Jesus, body blood soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. That TOO is idolatry to non Christians, but also non Catholic Christians as well, who don’t believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

    So there are really 2 types of people at issue here

    1. *]Non Christians who don’t accept Jesus as God
      *]and Non Catholic Christians who don’t accept the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist

      One could also argue

      If Jesus is NOT really and truly present, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist, THEN by worshiping the Eucharist as Catholics do. ( Eucharistic adoration), Catholics are idolaters. And how many times have we Catholics heard THAT charge from non Catholic Christians as well as non Christians?

      I bring all this up because your question covers more ground than what is on the surface
 
Just a few comments

Love of Him: As Jesus said, love of Him is a condition. John 14:15

Without both belief, and love of Him, (using His definition of one’s love for Him) then where is the assurance of one’s love of Him.?
Perhaps assurance is the wrong word that I used. I was meaning that even if one believes in Jesus and can’t see that there is more than symbolism in taking the consecrated bread, God’s love for this person doesn’t change.

When Jesus asked Peter if he loved him, Peter replied that he did…even when he didn’t actually comprehend EXACTLY what Jesus was asking. Jesus knew that eventually Peter would show his love when he gets crucified. Thus, my hope is that those who can’t seem to connect the bread as His Flesh truly, they will eventually see that the Church teaching of it is Infallible, one day.

As it stands, in the CCC those not in the Church but still believe that Christ died for us, they are still Christians, even if they are not officially in the Church (Catholic Church), God still loves them unconditionally. Even with all this ecumenism, there is actually no compromise when the Church states that “there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church” God would judge according to their hearts…and if they remain in Invincible Ignorance.
As stated, I’m thinking of 2 scenerios.

  1. *]“Christians” are attacked by non Christians because Christians worship Jesus as God. That is odolatry to anyone who does not believe Jesus is God
    *]because it was a Catholic Church being desecrated, one could continue the explanation with the worship of the Eucharist as well, by Catholics. The consecrated bread and wine is the real presence of Jesus, body blood soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. That TOO is idolatry to non Christians, but also non Catholic Christians as well, who don’t believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

  1. So there are really 2 types of people at issue here

    1. *]Non Christians who don’t accept Jesus as God
      *]and Non Catholic Christians who don’t accept the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
      One could also argue
      If Jesus is NOT really and truly present, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist, THEN by worshiping the Eucharist as Catholics do. ( Eucharistic adoration), Catholics are idolaters. And how many times have we Catholics heard THAT charge from non Catholic Christians as well as non Christians?

      I bring all this up because your question covers more ground than what is on the surface
      Yes, that was reason I brought up defending Catholics from accusation of idolatry. I would like those who still insist Symbolism alone, to show that they will support the Catholic teaching regardless of the attacks on the Church.

      MJ
 
Catholic Christian say that to believe the Eucharist is Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is crazy?
I’ve not heard a practicing Catholic Christian ever say this. Cafeteria Catholics perhaps. And it is not surprising when Catholics also reject Church teachings and doctrines. I pray for these Catholics as I also pray for myself to “**work **out my salvation with fear and trembling”

MJ
 
The way I’m going to answer isn’t a perfect parallel because obviously I believe those of us that profess the Apostle’s creed together (and mean it) are brothers and sisters in Christ, but I can defend Catholics in the same manner I can defend any other person belonging to any other religion as long as they are not trampling the rights of others. Those Jewish believers trampled the rights of the Catholics to worship in peace. I’d be just as offended, though not as personally offended, if Hindu’s were to trample the rights of Buddhists to worship in peace.

During this age of grace we are not instructed to fight, kill or destroy on God’s behalf, but rather love our enemies and spread the gospel of Jesus.
Kliska, I would not doubt your sincerity, when you say you would defend Catholics. That said and I appreciate the sentiment, it still doesn’t explain how you would defend Catholics from Idolatry. The attackers were not just trampling rights but mistake what the Church teaches for the last 2 millennium.

We are instructed not fight, kill or destroy but spread the gospel that is true. However, are you saying ,we as individuals are responsible in spreading the true Gospel of Christ? If so, how do we know we are?

MJ
 
Kliska, I would not doubt your sincerity, when you say you would defend Catholics. That said and I appreciate the sentiment, it still doesn’t explain how you would defend Catholics from Idolatry. The attackers were not just trampling rights but mistake what the Church teaches for the last 2 millennium.
I feel that changes the question entirely. You turned it into a theological debate instead of someone trampling on the rights of others. Theologically, if a Catholic is merely debating a practicing Jew, then why would a Protestant defend the theology of transubstantiation? I don’t believe the church taught transubstantiation for the last 2 millennium, I do, however, believe you have the right to think that and practice it if you so choose.
We are instructed not fight, kill or destroy but spread the gospel that is true. However, are you saying ,we as individuals are responsible in spreading the true Gospel of Christ? If so, how do we know we are?
Because in various places in the Bible it tells believers they are responsible to share the gospel.
 
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Gorgias:
In the engagement of their faculties of reason, and in their appeal to faith… various Episcopal communities reach a variety of conclusions with respect to the Eucharist. What can we glean from this seeming incongruity? After all, the law of non-contradiction has to kick in at some point.

As a Catholic, I conclude that the assurances of protection from error given to the Church do not apply equally to all those who call themselves by the name of ‘Christian’. Therefore, those who appeal to ‘faith and reason’ – outside the Church – have to answer to the variety of conflicting conclusions they reach.
As someone who is from your faith’s background I do understand where you’re coming from. But for me as someone who does not share your faith, I don’t find the answer all that difficult.
As someone who, like you, found himself not entirely convinced by the teachings of the Catholic Church at one point in his life, I do understand where you’re coming from. But, for me as someone who decided to rely on “faith and reason” – and for me, it had to be a heavy dose of ‘reason’, and couldn’t support itself primarily on ‘faith’ – I don’t find your answer all that convincing.
TEC has an official view on the Eucharist and I don’t know what each community may or may not conclude.
That’s the whole point, though, isn’t it? I mean, if the doctrine of the TEC were of God’s will, then would God contradict himself in the various teachings of the various TEC communities? I’m not talking about individuals with their personal individual beliefs – I’m talking about officially held doctrine of the various TEC communities. Would God really want His Truth to be held by some, modified by others, and rejected by still others? That doesn’t stand up to logical scrutiny.
But TEC is more of an open tent than the Catholic Church is. Its inclusiveness and practice of open communion are actually things I absolutely love about it and about some of the mainline-liberal denominations.
But, the question isn’t about ‘inclusiveness’, is it? It’s a question of whether you’re teaching the Truth as God intended it to be transmitted and received. You’re correct that inclusiveness is a wonderful thing; it’s great that you welcome others into your liturgical context. (In certain contexts in the Catholic Church, such openness would be awesome! But… not all contexts, if we’re to believe what’s written in the New Testament!)
I find human beings have a limited, finite capacity to understand a being as infinite as God. And we simply reason and believe differently.
I absolutely agree! That’s why we can’t rely solely on the conclusion of limited, finite, differently-reasoning-and-believing human beings – we have to rely on God and on His promises to us! If we rely on the former, we run the risk of doing things in a way that’s at odds with God’s desires for us!
So unlike faithful Catholics or those of other faiths which also have a more rigid dress code, I’m more than perfectly fine with wearing some gray and being amongst those who do and not only black and white. I do realize though for many they are not as comfortable in gray in their walks as others of us are.
Here’s the thing, though: your metaphor fails. 🤷

God isn’t ‘gray’ – He (and the Truth He reveals to us) are black-and-white. The shades of gray are in us – we’re the ones who have a hard time, on our own, perceiving the black-and-white, and so, we have to rely on our own fallible perceptions in order to make sense of the shades of gray we perceive! We can be comfortable with this deficiency in us – but, to claim that ‘gray’ is what is real, since it is what we personally experience… well, that’s just incomprehensible. If I can’t read a road sign at a distance, and therefore decide it says “please drive erratically”… should I do precisely that, or should I ask someone with perfect vision (who can tell me "no, G, it says ‘please drive safely’)? If three of us in the car can’t see perfectly in black-and-white, and we have three different interpretations of the sign’s message, do we celebrate the fact that we’re (very literally) “the blind leading the blind”, or do we search someone out who does have the gift of perfect eyesight? You seem to be celebrating the imperfect vision of the former; Catholics rely on the assurances of the latter. 🤷
 
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