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MartinJordan
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Cor_ad_Cor
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Here’s an example of what happened in my former (Baptist) church. I think this may be what you’re asking about. Note: I’m explaining this as I would have during my time as a Baptist, not as I believe today, necessarily.
On the first Sunday of the month, a plate of bread pellets and small “shot glasses” of grape juice were passed through the pews. The bread and juice had absolutely no significance of their own and were treated like common kitchen items before and after the service.
The significance was in two places:
On the first Sunday of the month, a plate of bread pellets and small “shot glasses” of grape juice were passed through the pews. The bread and juice had absolutely no significance of their own and were treated like common kitchen items before and after the service.
The significance was in two places:
- We were doing what Jesus told us to do. While doing so, we silently reflected on his sacrifice of the cross and its meaning for us - for us as a group, but mostly for us individually. The minister would offer a reflection or bible reading, prayer, and a song to follow. (With respect to the concept of the chosen people, all believers are considered the chosen.)
- We consumed the bread and juice in unison. If I were in the first pew, I held the bread in hand until everyone had a piece, and we ate at the same moment. In this sense, we are expressing our communion with one another in common belief.
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MartinJordan
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What was it that “tipped the scales” toward the Traditional Catholic of the Real Presence for you while this Baptist practice was considered a communion and worship although so very importantl then?
And also if this was part was worship why was the bread and grape juice not Divinity?
MJ
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badnewsbarrett
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Of course it makes sense to eat a symbol, particularly if the symbol is food. Jewish tradition includes a whole lot in the way of edible symbols, starting with the flight from Egypt and continuing with a fair number of established meal-based traditions usually done once-yearly, some of these being established before they were done wandering and settled in the Promised Land. The most important holidays are known as Feast Days, and all of them involve heavy use of food symbolism. It’s a very well-established tradition of eating symbols, and the meal that Jesus and His disciples very likely shared at the Last Supper consists of literally hours’ worth of symbol after symbol after symbol, all of which are eaten, all of which have symbolism that’s explained in detail.
Edit- also, from what I’ve been told on several occasions, Catholics do acknowledge the Eucharist as being a symbol as it is officially defined as having that role. It is also defined as being really and actually the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ, the bread and wine each being transubstantiated such that all of this is really and actually present (albeit not literally). Along with that, however, it is officially regarded as being symbolic too. So from the Catholic point of view, you’re ingesting something that is a symbol, yes acknowledged, but also transubstantiated. And you’re saying that it makes perfect sense to ingest this, but you can’t wrap your head around why someone would want to eat food and drink fluid that is symbolic but not transubstantiated…?
Perhaps because that is the sine qua non of symbolic food and drink, and that’s what is normally done with such things.
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Cor_ad_Cor
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I should say that I was raised in a church of Baptist tradition with Pentecostal leanings. I knew what I was supposed to think and feel and believe, but personally, I always felt a void. When I attended Mass with a relative at a young age, I was too naive and uneducated to put my finger on it, but I felt something that let me know the missing piece had been found! I now believe that was the Eucharist and the presence of Christ in the Church HE founded. He called me.
The faith I grew up in was (and is) of a relative importance to me for sentimental reasons and because I have a great love and respect for those people. They are sincere and love the Lord as much as any of us Catholics do, even if they lack some things. I learned things from that church that I will be ever grateful for and has shaped who I am as a Christian.
In Baptist theology, the only thing that really counts is interior disposition. The outward symbols aren’t necessary. Communion was once a month, but they didn’t feel worship was any different on the other Sundays, as true worship is only within, expressed with actions and symbols. If we traveled, we didn’t attend always attend a church. We worshipped in the hotel room or the RV. It was considered equivalent to the service at church, and our attendance would even be recorded as such when we returned and reported to the church secretary that we had worshipped.
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Kliska
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2 Samuel 23: 15 *David had a craving and said, “Oh that someone would give me water to drink from the well of Bethlehem which is by the gate!” 16 So the three mighty men broke through the camp of the Philistines, and drew water from the well of Bethlehem which was by the gate, and took it and brought it to David. Nevertheless he would not drink it, but poured it out to the Lord; 17 and he said, “Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this. Shall I drink the blood of the men who went in jeopardy of their lives?” Therefore he would not drink it…
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I guess David was trite and trivial…
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I guess David was trite and trivial…
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Bob_Crowley
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Whenever we perform a “toast” to someone or something, and raise a glass and then drink it, we are symbolically representing that person or event.
So a symbol can be eaten or drunk.
The difference between the Catholic and most Protestant Churches is that the Catholic Church believes Christ is in the bread and wine in some mysterious sense, whereas the Protestants believe the bread and wine are merely symbolic of his flesh and blood.
There are some other nuances between churches eg. the Lutheran and Anglican / Episcopalean Churches, who are different again from most other Protestant Churches in what they believe about communion.
Both Catholics and Protestants celebrate His sacrifice in their Communion, but with different levels of meaning.
So a symbol can be eaten or drunk.
The difference between the Catholic and most Protestant Churches is that the Catholic Church believes Christ is in the bread and wine in some mysterious sense, whereas the Protestants believe the bread and wine are merely symbolic of his flesh and blood.
There are some other nuances between churches eg. the Lutheran and Anglican / Episcopalean Churches, who are different again from most other Protestant Churches in what they believe about communion.
Both Catholics and Protestants celebrate His sacrifice in their Communion, but with different levels of meaning.
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PRmerger
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Sometimes at Christmas we will make a dessert that my father, who passed away in 1991, used to make. It was his specialty.
When we do this, and eat of it, we are essentially eating a a symbol of my father. It is a memorial to him. We remember him, tell stories about him, laugh at some of our failed attempts to reproduce this dessert…
It is a wonderful memorial and tribute to him.
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EasterJoy
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Ok, ok…I get you. I thought you were asking “does it make sense to eat a symbol?” when what you are really asking whether it is right to enter into a reality and yet treat it as if it were merely a symbol. Certainly a person who knows the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ ought not partake of Holy Communion if they do not believe the reality that it proclaims:
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1 Cor. 11:27-29
Either you ought to avail yourself of the sacrament because you discern its reality and have examined yourself and found yourself both in need and properly disposed or else you ought conclude that you do not believe what is being proclaimed and ought to refrain from partaking. Yes, I believe that.
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MartinJordan
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Thank you for your understanding. Perhaps my explanation to the point was poorly constructed
Appreciate everyone else’s participation in this thread.
Feel free to continue expressing views.
MJ
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peace2u2
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The Sacraments of Jesus’ Church are efficacious signs of His Grace in which Divine Life is dispensed to us. This means that God actually does something in the Sacraments. That is what makes the Sacraments more than just a mere symbol. He gives us Himself in them. He gives us grace, forgives sins, puts an indelible mark on our soul, heals, strengthens. So rather than just being symbol, God works in and through the Sacraments. They are gifts. Our faith meets His Grace. He has not abandoned us. He has given us His Holy Spirit that works in and through His Church. The Eucharist is not just spiritual but His Real Presence. When the Catholic Priest prays the words of consecration and the Holy Spirit changes ordinary bread and wine into the 2nd Person of The Holy Trinity, its as if He is literally roaming the streets of Israel in AD 30.
There are just 2 places in the Bible where Jesus’ disciples leave Him. When He is arrested, the crowds that followed Him suddenly disappeared and in John chapter 6 when Jesus teaches the difficult doctrine of the Eucharist. He doesn’t stop them when they choose to leave, He lets them leave. Why? because He is a perfect gentleman and knows that in order to believe you will need eyes of faith to accept this mystery. Our eyes are in our knees. We believe this because Jesus says in John 6:55, “For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” Jesus knew that He was the new Passover - Paschal Lamb. In Ex. 12:8 and 46, at the first Passover, the Jews HAD to eat the flesh of the lamb. So it must be with the Lamb of God. In 1 Corin 5:7, St. Paul calls Jesus “our paschal lamb”. At the Last Supper Jesus turned bread and wine into His Body and Blood and told His Apostles to “do this” - He figured out a way for us to eat His flesh and drink His Blood so that we may have eternal life.
Even St. Paul believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and says that one should discern himself before partaking.
1 Corin. 11:23-32:
usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/11
If you are in a church that teaches the doctrine of the Eucharist and its easy, then you can guarantee that you are not in the Church that Jesus established because nothing Jesus did or said was easy. He was radical.
There are just 2 places in the Bible where Jesus’ disciples leave Him. When He is arrested, the crowds that followed Him suddenly disappeared and in John chapter 6 when Jesus teaches the difficult doctrine of the Eucharist. He doesn’t stop them when they choose to leave, He lets them leave. Why? because He is a perfect gentleman and knows that in order to believe you will need eyes of faith to accept this mystery. Our eyes are in our knees. We believe this because Jesus says in John 6:55, “For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” Jesus knew that He was the new Passover - Paschal Lamb. In Ex. 12:8 and 46, at the first Passover, the Jews HAD to eat the flesh of the lamb. So it must be with the Lamb of God. In 1 Corin 5:7, St. Paul calls Jesus “our paschal lamb”. At the Last Supper Jesus turned bread and wine into His Body and Blood and told His Apostles to “do this” - He figured out a way for us to eat His flesh and drink His Blood so that we may have eternal life.
Even St. Paul believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and says that one should discern himself before partaking.
1 Corin. 11:23-32:
usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/11
If you are in a church that teaches the doctrine of the Eucharist and its easy, then you can guarantee that you are not in the Church that Jesus established because nothing Jesus did or said was easy. He was radical.
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Sy_Noe
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By discerning with all your heart that Christ gave up His body on the cross for each of us. And having the faith understanding that you are eating as a remembrance of that sacrifice He made for us. And fervently believing and consuming with all your heart in what He did on that cross for us. With the understanding that to eat was spoken figuratively meaning to believe, to consume what He did for us with all your heart.
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MartinJordan
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Where are you practicing this “figurative” instruction? And where did you learn this?
MJ
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MartinJordan
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Yes. That’s why I reiterated not “merely”. That said Jesus expresses it even further still.
MJ
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PRmerger
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This makes no sense given the fact that many people left Jesus when He told them to eat His flesh…and Jesus did not call them back to correct them.
No one would leave Jesus because He was saying to figuratively eat His Flesh.
Just like no one left Jesus because He said he was figuratively a Door.
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Doormouse
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If it was taught that it was symbolism from when Christ was on this earth the why did some of his followers walk away from him?
Edit… Sorry PR didn’t read your post before I posted mine.
Edit… Sorry PR didn’t read your post before I posted mine.
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PRmerger
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:tiphat:If it was taught that it was symbolism from when Christ was on this earth the why did some of his followers walk away from him?
Edit… Sorry PR didn’t read your post before I posted mine.
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Kliska
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Reread scripture where symbols were used; people got mad and didn’t understand, and Jesus didn’t explain it to the masses. Take Jesus’ temple speech for an wonderful example. He did not explain to them that the temple He spoke of was His body. They thought He meant the literal temple, and He let them think that, which resulted in an emotional outburst and grave misunderstanding that He did not correct.
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peace2u2
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When a detective searches a crime scene for clues, he does not stay at the office and do his research there. Rather, the detective goes directly to the scene to gather information and evidence. Therefore, my suggestion is that you do the same in your search for truth in the Eucharist - the gift that Jesus left us until He comes again by going to the Catholic Church Herself instead of gathering your info in a non-Catholic arena and that the Eucharist is not just a symbol but rather a reality of Christ with us and in us.
Perhaps looking at what the early Church did when they gathered in community as well as what the Apostles and disciples were doing in the 1st century. First, the Scriptures were read so their hearts were opened to receive Jesus - His Flesh and Blood aka Bread and Wine. Even Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. And St. Augustine - the list goes on and on. The Eucharist is a meal, a sacrifice and a memorial where we participate in the 1 sacrifice on Calvary - once and for all. We renew our covenant promise with Jesus Our Lord and Savior. Every time you go up to the altar in a Catholic Church and receive Jesus His Real Presence in the Eucharist, you are making an altar call. That is our altar call in the Catholic Church.
There is so much evidence to support His Real Presence in the Eucharist - but ultimately, it is you who needs to make that profession in your heart because you will never find Him with just your mind. He wants all of you especially your heart.
Here is a short list of evidence.
scborromeo.org/papers/The%20Real%20Presence%20of%20Jesus%20in%20the%20Eucharist.pdf
catholicexchange.com/paul-and-the-eucharist
therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
catholicbridge.com/catholic/eucharist.php
olgcparish.net/education/true_magnificence.html
americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/augustinecatholic.htm
theeucharist.wordpress.com/index/chapter-15-eucharist-as-memorial/
storytel.org/corpus-christi#.VbPDZ0tRGHt
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