How do you even begin debunking reincarnation?

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simply ask the person who believes in reincartion what happens if you are wrong about Matthew 25, Hebrews 9:27?

Then ask them what happens if they are wrong and you are right.
 
If this person is still a Christian, then Christianity simply makes no sense with reincarnation.
 
Hi,

Would you give Scriptural, historic or scientific evidence or information that backs up your opinion that reincarnation can or cannot exist?

The posters on this thread are attempting to use the valid resources at hand, not opinion, to help the original poster in the question. These sources include Scripture, Buddhist teachings, and so-called “New Age” writings of these ideas.

You and I live in a world where 2+2 *must *equal 4. Therefore, if math requires a precision and cannot be relative, then the existence, origin and destination of our souls (religion) must also have a specific outcome (not all can be true, nor can all be wrong).

Your statement that “There is no real way to debunk reincarnation just as there is no real way to debunk heaven or hell” doesn’t stand on its own without evidence to support it. It’s a non-answer.
Too true. Aside from those raised in the custom of hindu philosophies, I ascribe others adopting the philosophy as having experiences they cannot explain, then find the closest approximating box in which to ascribe it to. In other words, over reliance on superstitious thinking.

Pure left brain atheism would put up their argument based on pure left brain, applicable to all forms of religion. They tend to defeat themselves that way by dismissing right brain and experiences defying measurement. It becomes as ridiculous as trying to scientifically disprove that love exists or believing the Bible must be dissected in a tray to be comprehended.

It would be nice if there were pragmatic means to parse out these experiences. For instance, if you had a dream that seemed to come true in real life, it’s a pretty safe bet the subconscious mind was putting 2 + 2 together before you arrived to what was likely inevitable consequence of material conditions.

Here’s where it gets really tricky, however. What’s the difference between hearing God’s voice manifest in your ears, an egocentric machination, and a full blown psychotic break? Do we dare ask Mohamed that question? When the Koran is read with the overlay of maslow hierarchy & human growth/ develop in mind, this “prophet” takes on the appearance of a man descending into dementia and leaving a blueprint behind for all to follow off a cliff. It would incite wars doing a side by side comparison of him to David Koresh.

Not to be picking on Muslims alone. New age channelers appear to have split personalities to me. Why on earth would a human being choose to welcome into themselves whatever might be floating past them? Logic alone dictates it to be manifestly unsound. Self identified christian sects speaking in tongues do not resemble Christianity to me at all. Along those same lines- what was it that actually happened to Edgar Cayce (Disciples of Christ)? Unknown, but I believe that his own contradictions about his belief in Christ vs his readings causing him inner agitation are worthy of in depth analysis. In an era of advanced mind control tactics, my theory is he fell victim to it rather than empower people to take possession of their own free will tempered by morality of Church doctrine. In the grander scheme of things an interesting documentary-- “the century of the self”, seems to be the pied piper of populism distracting people from their true/ intended path.
 
Too true. Aside from those raised in the custom of hindu philosophies, I ascribe others adopting the philosophy as having experiences they cannot explain, then find the closest approximating box in which to ascribe it to. In other words, over reliance on superstitious thinking.

Pure left brain atheism would put up their argument based on pure left brain, applicable to all forms of religion. They tend to defeat themselves that way by dismissing right brain and experiences defying measurement. It becomes as ridiculous as trying to scientifically disprove that love exists or believing the Bible must be dissected in a tray to be comprehended.

It would be nice if there were pragmatic means to parse out these experiences. For instance, if you had a dream that seemed to come true in real life, it’s a pretty safe bet the subconscious mind was putting 2 + 2 together before you arrived to what was likely inevitable consequence of material conditions.

Here’s where it gets really tricky, however. What’s the difference between hearing God’s voice manifest in your ears, an egocentric machination, and a full blown psychotic break? Do we dare ask Mohamed that question? When the Koran is read with the overlay of maslow hierarchy & human growth/ develop in mind, this “prophet” takes on the appearance of a man descending into dementia and leaving a blueprint behind for all to follow off a cliff. It would incite wars doing a side by side comparison of him to David Koresh.

Not to be picking on Muslims alone. New age channelers appear to have split personalities to me. Why on earth would a human being choose to welcome into themselves whatever might be floating past them? Logic alone dictates it to be manifestly unsound. **Self identified christian sects speaking in tongues do not resemble Christianity to me at all. ** Along those same lines- what was it that actually happened to Edgar Cayce (Disciples of Christ)? Unknown, but I believe that his own contradictions about his belief in Christ vs his readings causing him inner agitation are worthy of in depth analysis. In an era of advanced mind control tactics, my theory is he fell victim to it rather than empower people to take possession of their own free will tempered by morality of Church doctrine. In the grander scheme of things an interesting documentary-- “the century of the self”, seems to be the pied piper of populism distracting people from their true/ intended path.
I find what I bolded to be quite a funny statement considering Paul talked about how it seemed like everyone was speaking in tongues in the early church. I forget what letter it was. I bet those people speaking in tongues that you don’t believe resemble Christians are probably more like the Christians of the first century than Catholics today.
 
is john the baptist a reincarnation of elijah? Also what did elisha mean when he said:

When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?” “Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied. “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise not.” —2 Kings 2:9-10

Since at death the body reaturns to the dust and the spirit goes back to God, can’t God use that same spirit and put it in another body that was recently made in the womb?
 
In the bible people waited in Abraham’s bosom or hades for Jesus, they did not go thru an endless cycle of rebirthing

I have been brought to believe in pergatory. As I have mixed with many different people, I came across the idea of reincarnation. It was believed in the OT as jews thought Jesus with Elija reincarnated. I have seen true accounts of indian children (India) who have never been outside their village but can account for a full life in another city and can relate peoples, streets, houses, conversations etc,etc,etc as if they were there and have lived another life. These are children I’m speaking of not some adult looking for attention or has visited a hypnotist. There is definately something to it but what? If pergatory is a place of cleansing for Catholics, then why can pergatory be the method of cleansing for those who believe in it? Maybe there is SOME truth in it but not FULL truth. Maybe people are reincarnated when they haven’t accepted Jesus as their saviour. Maybe Abraham’s bosom or hades, is in fact THIS LIFE ON EARTH. Maybe people who die without conversion to Christ go to either limbo or back to the earth (hades) until they eventually come to a place where their hearts are open to the Truth of Christ. In this way, the person who is born into a rough life (with a hardened heart) can be eventually saved. I’m not saying I believe in reincarnation, but I’m not blindly closing my eyes to it’s possibility. If I did, I would also have to question pergatory. I however, DO discount completely reincarnation into a lesser form (animals) as indians believe. Regarding our bodies. Who’s to say our glorified bodies have anything to do with our dead bodies gone to dust? It’s our spirits that are the same. Jesus was not even recognized by close friends after His death when He appeared to them in His glorified body.
 
In the bible people waited in Abraham’s bosom or hades for Jesus, they did not go thru an endless cycle of rebirthing

I have been brought to believe in pergatory. As I have mixed with many different people, I came across the idea of reincarnation. It was believed in the OT as jews thought Jesus with Elija reincarnated. **I have seen true accounts of indian children (India) who have never been outside their village but can account for a full life in another city and can relate peoples, streets, houses, conversations etc,etc,etc as if they were there and have lived another life. **These are children I’m speaking of not some adult looking for attention or has visited a hypnotist. There is definately something to it but what? If pergatory is a place of cleansing for Catholics, then why can pergatory be the method of cleansing for those who believe in it? Maybe there is SOME truth in it but not FULL truth. Maybe people are reincarnated when they haven’t accepted Jesus as their saviour. Maybe Abraham’s bosom or hades, is in fact THIS LIFE ON EARTH. Maybe people who die without conversion to Christ go to either limbo or back to the earth (hades) until they eventually come to a place where their hearts are open to the Truth of Christ. In this way, the person who is born into a rough life (with a hardened heart) can be eventually saved. I’m not saying I believe in reincarnation, but I’m not blindly closing my eyes to it’s possibility. If I did, I would also have to question pergatory. I however, DO discount completely reincarnation into a lesser form (animals) as indians believe. Regarding our bodies. Who’s to say our glorified bodies have anything to do with our dead bodies gone to dust? It’s our spirits that are the same. Jesus was not even recognized by close friends after His death when He appeared to them in His glorified body.
I think it is telling that the children that can account for other lives in other villages are in India (a society where just about everyone believes in reincarnation). If reincarnation were true and this were possible then there would certainly be people in Christian or Muslim countries being able to do the same thing, but that doesn’t seem to happen. I wonder why.
 
Actually, it does. But is not as widely publisized because of retribution or being laughed at. In India there is more of a believing attitude. It’s the same thing when speaking of ‘evil’ in many native communitites. The missionaries had no problem convincing the natives of evil spirits because they knew already they existed as they believed in the them to the point where they were physically manifest. Try convincing westerners that evil spirits exist! We know that spiritual action needs a believing attitude to manifest from the actions of Jesus when on earth. He would send away people with disbelieving attitudes before He attempted to heal someone. Did this mean that healing was illusion? In the same way, just because Catholics don’t believe in reincarnation, does it follow that it does’nt exist? When wondering the truth of anything, isn’t it a reasonable question to ask Why? IF reincarnation is true? WHY would it be true? and COULD? it be part of God’s overall plan for some or all of His people. Salvation IS through Jesus! so what is ‘TIME’ for?? If Jesus did it all on the cross and “it is finished”, Why 'TIMÉ"? Why didn’t the 2nd coming happen when the apostles thought it would, in THEIR time. Why the continual march onward of generation after generation, if not for some further plan of God’s doing. Let’s look at this hypothetically and ask, WHY NOT!
 
Oh! and by the way Jimjack! I looked at that web site you posted. There were so many untruths being spoken that I ended up dismissing it. Example:- “There is no scientific evidence that prayer has any power”. A university science experiment was done (and results published) on dead water by crystallizing the molecules and viewing through a microscope to see if it’s properties (crystals) changed with the enviroment. They started with a standard test showing dead water produced mis-shaped crystals with little uniformity and dull colour. They proceeded onto more radical testing. To make a long story short, they wondered if music made any difference?. They played classical (as they would) to the water and lo & behold (& to their surprise), the cystals changed to be beautifully formed and symetrical. They then played heavy metal, and the crystals became malformed with shattered shape. They found the more spiritual the music, the more perfect & white the crystal. THEN they went one step further and wondered about thought and particular prayer. Silent Prayer. The crystals became the whitest and most perfect of the experiment. The author of that web posting is in his own bubble! Don’t get sucked in. Keep an OPEN mind and always SEEK. The TRUTH, WILL be revealed to you. Now, back to the subject…
 
The principle of economy! Why do we need more than one life on earth?
 
(Edited)

Well, my approach would of course be different, depending upon who is holding the reincarnation belief. If it is someone of another faith I would get a context for the belief, and I would not just jump right into proselytizing. I would try to have a dialogue of mutual understanding even though our beliefs are different.

If it were a Christian (Catholic or Protestant) who is trying to say that the concept of reincarnation can be compatible with Christian beliefs, I would be more along the lines of trying to (tactfully) help them understand that this is a heretical path they are going down. The proofs in This Rock and similar sources would be of great help in this endeavor. Ultimately it may still come down to an unresolved “agree to disagree for the time being” situation.

In any case, I would always make my best effort to be charitable.
 
(Edited) Acts 2, 10, 19- all of which have been taken out of context by charismatics to engage behavior that was a cautionary tale to avoid. Hence Paul’s response to restore order to Corinthians. “Tongues” as in another language previously unknown to yourself, not an altered voice, gibberish, or lapses of conscious control of yourself. Paul was not twitching on the ground or frothing at the mouth. Riding on the surface/ out of context is bound to get you in the same trouble as tent revivalists.

Fast forward to colonial slave era- Roman Catholicism trickled into Haiti and it became partially adopted with voodoo traditions of Africa. In other words, no longer Catholicism, but a fashion accessory/ addendum for voodoo practitioners. Same handling of Jesus Christ by Muslims and same failure to thrive. Coincidence? Judge for yourself.
[bibledrb]2 Peter 3:16-18[/bibledrb]
When that degree of ignorance in unabated, it yields this fruit…
religionnewsblog.com/23801/churches-denounce-african-children-as-witches

(Edited)
Your stance as ‘anti-bubble’ inevitably leads to an entirely different bubble newadvent.org/cathen/12312c.htm. As solitary, I stand outside the bubble theory and my relationship with my maker remains. You could pick me up and fling me to a desert island or a prison for the rest of my days and it would remain, if not serve to entrench, my resolve. Faith to me is the sum of all things that cannot be stolen. People lie, but God knows the truth.

I thank God for (honest) atheists. Truly I’m grateful for them. Anyone who fears atheists are only betraying how much homework they’ve procrastinated. Christianity has superficial meaning expressed as a noun, but like love itself, takes on a meaning stretching into infinity when expressed as a verb. 🙂

As for the OP-- Hindu theology (main advocate of reincarnation) is very complex and I’m mostly ignorant of it. I think it useful for you to consider the concept of free will in Christianity relative to Hindu. Maybe just have that one conversation with them and leave it be. St Thomas is believed to have been slain by Brahma’s who apparently meant to defend a caste system & saw Christianity as a threat. Free will is a threat to reincarnation caste system? :hmmm:
 
“For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.” (Matthew 11:13-14)

“And the disciples asked him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ But he answered them and said, ‘Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.’ Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:10-13)

By identifying the Baptist as Elijah, Jesus is identifying himself as the Messiah. Throughout the gospel narrative there are explicit references to the signs that will precede the Messiah.

“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5)
This is one of the many messianic promises of the Old Testament. One of the signs that the true Messiah has come, according to this passage from Malachi, is that he be preceded by a forerunner, by Elijah.

Although the Bible also contains other reincarnational passages, these Elijah-John passages constitute clear proof of reincarnation:
  1. The Old Testament prophesied that Elijah himself (not someone “like” him or someone “similar” to him, but Elijah himself) would return before the advent of the Messiah.
  2. Jesus declared that John the Baptist was Elijah who had returned, stating bluntly “Elijah has come”.
Now, based on these passages alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:

(A) John the Baptist was Elijah himself, meaning that Elijah had reincarnated. If this is true, then reincarnation must belong in Christian theology, and the West’s entire doctrinal interpretation of “Life After Death” in general, and the “Last Day Resurrection” in particular, must be radically revised, or…

(B) John the Baptist was not Elijah himself, meaning that Elijah himself had not returned. If this is so, then either:

(1) The Old Testament prophecy about Elijah returning before the Messiah failed to come to pass (meaning that Biblical prophecy is fallible), OR

(2) Jesus was not the Messiah.

Basically, it comes down to this simple question: What do you want to believe? One of the following A, B, or C, must logically be true:

A. Reincarnation is true, or

B. Jesus was not the Messiah, or

C. The prophecies of the Bible are unreliable.

As surely as two and two make four, one of the above must be true. At any rate, the passage in which Jesus says in no uncertain terms that John was Elijah is “overt” and direct:

“But I tell you, Elijah has come.” (Mark 9:13)

The following verse is used to refute the John the Baptist/Elijah reincarnation connection. The Bible tells us that John the Baptist possessed,

“… the spirit and power of Elijah.” (Luke 1:17)

Those who refute this reincarnation connection say that John the Baptist merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah. However, this is a perfect description of reincarnation: the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit.

John carried Elijah’s living spirit, but not his physical memory. And since John did not possess Elijah’s physical memory, he did not possess the memories of being the man Elijah. Thus, John the Baptist denied being Elijah when asked:

But Jesus knew better, and said so in the plainest words possible:

“This is the one … there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist… And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:11-15).

What are your thoughts on this!
 
Also, This???

“… man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” (Hebrews 9:27)

This is often assumed, reasonably enough, to declare that each human being lives once as a mortal on earth, dies once, and then faces judgment. But this verse, on it’s surface, not only applies to reincarnation, but to the modern concept of resurrection. In fact, if anything, this verse can be most applied to refuting modern Christianity’s definition of resurrection. Reincarnation states that the spirit leaves the body at death, faces judgment, then can enter a new and different body at a later time. In this way, Hebrews 9:27 does not refute reincarnation because it is not the same body that dies again. It implies one man/one death, which agrees with reincarnation, but totally disagrees with modern Christianity’s definition of resurrection which holds that after a body dies and faces judgment, his physical body will rise from the grave at a later day to face possible death again and judgment. So Hebrews 9:27 does not refute reincarnation after all, but does refute resurrection as modern Christianity defines it.

From all that has been said here, one can safely draw the conclusion that reincarnation was not only known by those in Christ’s day, by that Christ Himself and the Bible teaches it and reincarnation should be a doctrine acceptable by every follower of Christ.

YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE!?!
 
And you may also be interested in one scientic’s view.Quote:

“So convincing is the evidence in favor of past life influences that one can only conclude that those who refuse to consider this to be an area worthy of serious study must be either uninformed or excessively narrow-minded.” – Stan Grof M.D., Holotropic Mind
 
“For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.” (Matthew 11:13-14)

“And the disciples asked him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ But he answered them and said, ‘Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.’ Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:10-13)

By identifying the Baptist as Elijah, Jesus is identifying himself as the Messiah. Throughout the gospel narrative there are explicit references to the signs that will precede the Messiah.

“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5)
This is one of the many messianic promises of the Old Testament. One of the signs that the true Messiah has come, according to this passage from Malachi, is that he be preceded by a forerunner, by Elijah.

Although the Bible also contains other reincarnational passages, these Elijah-John passages constitute clear proof of reincarnation:
  1. The Old Testament prophesied that Elijah himself (not someone “like” him or someone “similar” to him, but Elijah himself) would return before the advent of the Messiah.
  2. Jesus declared that John the Baptist was Elijah who had returned, stating bluntly “Elijah has come”.
Now, based on these passages alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:

The following verse is used to refute the John the Baptist/Elijah reincarnation connection. The Bible tells us that John the Baptist possessed,

“… the spirit and power of Elijah.” (Luke 1:17)

Those who refute this reincarnation connection say that John the Baptist merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah. However, this is a perfect description of reincarnation: the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit.

John carried Elijah’s living spirit, but not his physical memory. And since John did not possess Elijah’s physical memory, he did not possess the memories of being the man Elijah. Thus, John the Baptist denied being Elijah when asked:

But Jesus knew better, and said so in the plainest words possible:

“This is the one … there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist… And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:11-15).

What are your thoughts on this!
In all that, you ignore Luke chapter 1:
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’** and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” ** (New King James Version)
Here Scripture clearly and plainly states that John goes in the spirit and power of Elijah, but not that he is Elijah himself. Scripture does not state that John has Elijah’s soul. “Spirit” is here meant to mean that he is symbolically Elijah, and that he is to do the work that was said of Elijah. Idiomatically, we would say that a Russian military parade is in the spirit of the Red Army’s marching during World War 2. Is this a World War 2 march? No, but they are similar and the military parade is symbolic of the WW2 marching.
Also, the Gospel of Nicodemus (while not canonical, but still being considered a part of Holy Tradition, especially among the Eastern Orthodox who write icons and compose songs from scenes based off of the Gospel) plainly contradicts this, listing John the Baptist as in Sheol, announcing the coming of Jesus into the realm of the dead to free everyone who has ever died, even Adam and Eve. Isaiah is also down there, as well as the rest of the Patriarchs and prophets. Elijah and Enoch, however, are seen as being in Paradise. This testimony comes from the mouths of some of those who were led out of the gates of Death by Christ; it was these people who were seen walking out of their tombs after Christ was crucified. Holy Tradition and the testimony of the dead themselves are against you.
You present a VERY false dichotomy; either we believe that John is a reincarnated Elijah (who never even died to begin with) or we deny that Christ is the Messiah?
Just another question: How do you explain Elijah being reincarnated if he was assumed into Heaven, and never died?
EDIT: Just so you know, I can provide you links to the Gospel of Nicodemus if you’d like. It’s a GREAT read during Holy Week; it’s very inspirational and not a word of it contradicts anything in canonical Scripture.
 
And you may also be interested in one scientic’s view.Quote:

“So convincing is the evidence in favor of past life influences that one can only conclude that those who refuse to consider this to be an area worthy of serious study must be either uninformed or excessively narrow-minded.” – Stan Grof M.D., Holotropic Mind
This is a matter of theology, not science. Something as supernatural as this cannot hope to be corroborated by mere science. Science can only explain the natural world, what we can perceive with our five senses. It can never hope to shed any light on any matter of faith or theology.
 
Also, This???

“… man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” (Hebrews 9:27)

This is often assumed, reasonably enough, to declare that each human being lives once as a mortal on earth, dies once, and then faces judgment. But this verse, on it’s surface, not only applies to reincarnation, but to the modern concept of resurrection. In fact, if anything, this verse can be most applied to refuting modern Christianity’s definition of resurrection. Reincarnation states that the spirit leaves the body at death, faces judgment, then can enter a new and different body at a later time. In this way, Hebrews 9:27 does not refute reincarnation because it is not the same body that dies again. It implies one man/one death, which agrees with reincarnation, but totally disagrees with modern Christianity’s definition of resurrection which holds that after a body dies and faces judgment, his physical body will rise from the grave at a later day to face possible death again and judgment. So Hebrews 9:27 does not refute reincarnation after all, but does refute resurrection as modern Christianity defines it.

From all that has been said here, one can safely draw the conclusion that reincarnation was not only known by those in Christ’s day, by that Christ Himself and the Bible teaches it and reincarnation should be a doctrine acceptable by every follower of Christ.

YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE!?!
Scripture plainly states that all will be risen on the last day. This place is chock-full of verses right outta Scripture: lastdaysmystery.info/resurrection_of_the_dead.htm
 
Thankyou for your response. The quotes I provided are NOT MY belief as I am not taking any side SO FAR, as to the truth or un-truth of reincarnation being possible. So I haven’t 'ignored" anything. To the contrary, I am asking for ALL THOUGHTS for and against. That is what a discussion is all about. In saying this, your explaination for the ‘spirit’ still doesn’t explain the sections stated as:- the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit. What you seem to be saying is something different. Putting you own slat toward it, so to speak. I can’t see where anything you have posted contradicts the above? I am looking for unbias discussion. And I would like to read MORE re: nicodemus. The more information on the subject, the more chance to see the THREAD of truth amoung the dros.
 
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