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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Only if you think of those things as works that WE do, which they are not. They are God’s way of working in and through us, to draw us closer to Himself. If you’re just going through the motions of communion without believing that Jesus meant it when he said, “This is my body…This is my blood” or if you just go to confession, and have no faith that God is at work through the priest or without true repentance, then it does you no good.
Just because you did not experience conversion as a Catholic does not mean that Catholics are unconverted and need to be saved. Salvation is not a one-time, pray a prayer done deal and you’ve got your ticket to Heaven. What happened to you in September is only the beginning of your journey. Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Your conversion was God beginning a good work in you, which will not be completely completed until you reach Heaven.
B
BloodWashed
Guest
Philippians is talking about growing as a Christian. Salvation is a one time deal. You become a child of God and there’s nothign you can do to change it. Now, there’s a lot of growing that can be done in the Lord, but there’s nothing you can do to get “more saved.” The Bible teaches eternal security. The Bible teaches that the blood cleanseth from all sin. I don’t need to go confess my sins to a priest to gain favor with God. I don’t need connections to talk to my Father.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
The Bible does not teach eternal security unless you ignore passages that tell us to “endure to the end” and talk about the branches that bear no fruit being cut off, as well as many others.
You are right, you don’t need to confess your sins TO a priest. Catholics don’t confess TO a priest either, we confess TO God through a priest. And it’s completely Biblical:
- John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
- John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
- John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.
- Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?
- Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.
- Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.
- Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.
- John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ’s ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an “indulgence”).
- 2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.
- 2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.
- James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.
- 1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.
- Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.
In fact, I highly recommend that you spend some time reading the Catholic Answers Library articles, and the Scriptures at Scripture Catholic to give you a better understanding of the Catholic faith and so you can see that it’s completely Scriptural.
I wouldn’t go to a veterinarian to find out about ship building, nor would I go to a Baptist to learn about the Catholic Church.
B
BloodWashed
Guest
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13.
John KNEW he was going to heaven. He told others he could KNOW. Not that they could HOPE, that they could KNOW.
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/confession.htm
Confessional is unbiblical. I don’t need a man through God to forgive my sins. I don’t need to go through someone else to get to God! In the Old Testament, they had to do that because the blood of the Lamb had not been spilled. But now it has.
“and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleaseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7. ALL sin. Meaning all the ones I did, all the ones I’m doing, and all the ones I’ll do. That means I’m covered. Forever.
When Jesus told the crippled man his sins were forgiven, the Pharisees thought he blasphemed for doing that which only God can do. But it was ok for Jesus to do it, because he was GOD. When he was on the earth, he was fully God and fully Man. He man-ness didn’t hinder his Godness from forgiving sin, but that doesn’t give men who aren’t fully God the authority to do the same.
John KNEW he was going to heaven. He told others he could KNOW. Not that they could HOPE, that they could KNOW.
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/confession.htm
Confessional is unbiblical. I don’t need a man through God to forgive my sins. I don’t need to go through someone else to get to God! In the Old Testament, they had to do that because the blood of the Lamb had not been spilled. But now it has.
“and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleaseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7. ALL sin. Meaning all the ones I did, all the ones I’m doing, and all the ones I’ll do. That means I’m covered. Forever.
When Jesus told the crippled man his sins were forgiven, the Pharisees thought he blasphemed for doing that which only God can do. But it was ok for Jesus to do it, because he was GOD. When he was on the earth, he was fully God and fully Man. He man-ness didn’t hinder his Godness from forgiving sin, but that doesn’t give men who aren’t fully God the authority to do the same.
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peacelight
Guest
Peace be with you. I know we kinda back and forth talking about other issue in the other thread but anyway I just want to tell you after reading your testimonies I am so glad to hear that you come to know that Christian is not bad afterall. What ever denominations you follows you will always be loved by your brothers and sisters in the Catholic faith I want you to know that. I love all conversion stories including yours. Never let go your trust in our Lord Jesus Christ. Many blessings to you.The plan of salvation debate is age-old: Bible-Believers (by that I mean Bible only) have their ideas, and Catholics have theirs. To me, the most obvious thing to find the truth would be to test the plan in action. The Bible says that when you get saved, you become a new creature in Christ, that you lose your old desires, and you become born-again.
I was pretty messed up before I got saved. At the tender age of 15, I was a vehement atheist. I hated Christianity, and the Bible. I hated Christians for being “stupid” and “ignorant” and “bigoted” and “close minded.” I spent my free time surfing the internet for proof that the Bible was a book of lies and that God didn’t exist. I was also heavily involved in a serious homosexual relationship. When I wasn’t disproving God, I was proving that homosexuality was normal.
My partner who I was with happened to be a born-again Christian who had backslidden. She finally came to her senses, and she broke up with me, and started hounding me about getting saved. It was the last thing I wanted to do, because I hated Christianity even more at this point for ending our relationship, which I had been using to fill the Jesus-shaped hole in my heart. But I finally went. After three visits, I got saved.
Within the next week, I suddenly understood all the things I had once hated about Christians, and began doing them myself. Within a few months, I converted from being an uber liberal to a radical republican. Within a few more months, I was finally able to let go of the relationship I had been in for close to 2 years. And now, 7 months later, I firmly despise the sin of homosexuality as much as any Christian, when this time last year I was preparing to participate in the day of silence.
Now, forgive me if this seems preachy and stupid and like I’m trying to seem pious. I just thought it would be interesting to share my testimony. What do you Catholics think about a non-Catholic church changing a person’s life like that? What do you think caused it?
And if anyone else–Catholic or Bible-Believer, has a similiar testimony, I’d be interested to hear it.
Forgive me again for the length
L
Lampo
Guest
So you think that now.
Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.
John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ’s ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an “indulgence”).
James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.
This would greatly benefit you.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Nobody in the Catholic Church would ever have encouraged such a thing, so I don’t know what you mean, here.
A great many converts, including the famous Presbyterian preacher Scott Hahn, who is now a lay Franciscan and Theology instructor at Franciscan University in Steubenville, which is one of the best Catholic schools in the world, and Pentecostal preacher Deacon Alex Jones who became Catholic along with a large number of his congregation just a few years ago, and Baptist missionary to South America Kristine Franklin, who became Catholic in the late 1990s, share the same thing - that they began the serious part of their journey to the Catholic faith when they felt called by God to refute the “errors of Rome” and rescue the “poor deluded Catholics” - instead, they discovered that everything they had thought about the Catholic Church was wrong, and that God was in fact calling them to conversion.
J
jmcrae
Guest
We Catholics can also know when we are in sin and on the road to Hell, and when we are in the state of grace, and on the way to Heaven. What we cannot do is presume that we will remain in the state of grace forever, and St. John does not indicate that we could ever do this - rather, he tells us how to know that we are in the state of grace, and encourages us to do everything possible to remain in that state, by avoiding sin and doing what is right.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Isn’t it amazing?A great many converts, including the famous Presbyterian preacher Scott Hahn, who is now a lay Franciscan and Theology instructor at Franciscan University in Steubenville, which is one of the best Catholic schools in the world, and Pentecostal preacher Deacon Alex Jones who became Catholic along with a large number of his congregation just a few years ago, and Baptist missionary to South America Kristine Franklin, who became Catholic in the late 1990s, share the same thing - that they began the serious part of their journey to the Catholic faith when they felt called by God to refute the “errors of Rome” and rescue the “poor deluded Catholics” - instead, they discovered that everything they had thought about the Catholic Church was wrong, and that God was in fact calling them to conversion.
This website contains links to both audio and text versions of conversion stories. There are about 50 stories of Baptists who are now Catholic. There are also several Catholics here at CAF who were once Baptists that set out to bring those poor, lost Catholics to a saving knowledge of Christ, little knowing that Christ had other plans entirely. Thanks be to God!
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Steve Ray (another former Baptist) in his conversion story talks about all the “If” statements in the first chapters of 1 John (If we do this, If we say this…etc) before you get to the “that you may know that you have eternal life” part. That’s why it’s important to take Scripture as a whole rather than cherry-picking verses.
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BloodWashed
Guest
I see no "if"s in 1 John that contradict what I’ve said about 1 John 5:13. I’ll be happy to take anything in as big a context as you like.
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/roman_catholic_salvation.htm
I can only type so much before I get tired, and I feel that the above link provides a good statement on the Catholic plan of salvation
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jmcrae
Guest
He’s half right - we don’t agree with the Protestant “reformers” (rebels). The Scriptures are a product of the Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church - they were put together by Catholic Bishops and promulgated by an infallible decree of Pope Innocent I - that’s how we know they’re Scripture, and not just a random collection of books about God.
The term “faith alone” appears exactly once, in the Bible, in James 2:17, which says, Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
How so, if Scripture not only doesn’t teach this, but actually teaches the opposite?
I don’t have time to go through that whole article, but I felt moved to respond to that first bit.
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Lampo
Guest
Why would you get your information about Catholicism from a non-Catholic source? Why not go directly to the horse’s mouth? If you’d like to learn about Catholicism, you are doing well by coming here. You will be given many authentic Catholic resources. Here is one.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
1 John 5:13 says “these are written” meaning all those "if you’ve said this, done this, etc… statements, then you may know that you have eternal life. In other words, our behavior, our actions, (the good works that we do) are a very good indicator of where we stand spiritually.
I only read the introductory paragraph and it’s riddled with errors. Primarily that the “Roman Church” (a title which itself is inaccurate, not all Catholics are Roman Catholic) redefined faith, grace and justification. It was the non-Catholic faith communities that redefined those terms. Scripture does not teach faith “alone” except to say we are NOT saved or justified by faith alone.
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peacelight
Guest
I must say, Lampo is right Bloodwashed! You need to go to the right source if you truly want to know what Catholic is all about, when you go to non-Catholic source you will get nowhere because they are only focus on the negativity, bit and pieces not the whole truth.
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BloodWashed
Guest
I only skimmed the article, because it was very long, but from a superficial look ot seemed good. I apologize if there were errors.
As for why do I go to non-Catholics to get information on Catholics? If I wanted to get a good deal on my taxes, I wouldn’t go to the IRS
As for why do I go to non-Catholics to get information on Catholics? If I wanted to get a good deal on my taxes, I wouldn’t go to the IRS
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Lampo
Guest
In your hypothetical, you are not wanting to *learn *about filing taxes. You go to the IRS to learn the latest you can file don’t you?
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BloodWashed
Guest
Yeah, but you need to take everything they tell you with a grain of salt. You can get the straight facts from the IRS, but you can’t always get the /truth/ from the IRS
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Lampo
Guest
This reasoning seems a little silly to me. It doesn’t seem right/reverent to be comparing the Church founded by Jesus to the IRS! What is the difference between “straight facts” and the “truth?”
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