How do you forgive the unrepentant?

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Rob from the previous post expresses my feelings about it perfectly.

I have no idea if I will ever stop feeling the burning anger, but on most days I manage to force myself to include this person into my Divine Mercy chaplet. Maybe I’ll experience the relief of forgiveness one day - whatever that means, but for now all I can manage is to pray for the person, to desire to not hate them, to not dream of revenge, and not talk badly about them when an opportunity arises.

I don’t think we can forgive such things. It just isn’t humanly possible. Only God can preform a miracle in such a situation. If I were you, I would hand over this person to God, ask Him to deal with them because you can’t, ask for healing - psychological, emotional, spiritual and physical, and allow yourself to drop this burden you have been carrying. Basically, you would be admitting that you are helpless and asking God to sort it out for you. Don’t expect to see this person repenting and dropping to their knees, asking for your forgiveness, but trust God that He knows what He’s doing with this situation.

I think this is all we can really do when we have been hurt by those whose job in this world is to love us unconditionally an selflessly. Those who have not experienced it can talk all they want about forgiveness. This is something else all-together and only God can deal with it. I hold on to the promise that we will be healed in next life. I think that’s as good as it gets.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
The only “forgiveness” I really understand is trying to come to some understanding of why they did what they did, some point of humanization in the deed. Or some subsequent good, some sign that they understand and regret what they did was wrong.
…

From Roger Zelazny’ ‘The Hand of Oberon’

“…I wish. I wish that some time long ago something had not been said that was said, or something done that was not done. Something had we known might have let him grow differently, something which would have seen him become another man than the bitter bent thing I saw up there. It is best now if he is dead. But it is a waste of something that might have been.”
I did not answer him. What he had said might or might not be right. It did not matter. Brand might have been border line psychotic, whatever that means, and then again maybe not. There is always a reason. Whenever anything has been mucked up, whenever anything outrageous happens, there is a reason for it. You still have a mucked up, outrageous situation on your hands, however, and explaining it does not alleviate it one bit. If someone does something really rotten there is a reason for it. Learn it, if you care, and you learn why he is a son of a b&!. The fact is the thing remains, though. Brand had acted. It changed nothing to run a posthumous psychoanalysis. Acts and their consequences are the things by which our fellows judge us. Anything else, and all that you get is a cheap feeling of moral superiority by thinking how you would have done something nicer if it had been you. So as for the rest, leave it to heaven. I’m not qualified.*

One can be too accomodating, too ready to try and give the other person the benefit of the doubt, find some rationalization for their behavior. It’s counterproductive-- because again, you’re spending the precious moments of your life pondering someone else’s actions and motivations in putting you in a hole, vice expending your efforts in climbing out of it. I like the quote above, regardless of their reasons, the fact you now understand why they’re an SOB doesn’t change the fact they’re an SOB and not worthy of any more of your time. Yeah, you have to deal with the consequences of having run into an SOB, but you can try your best to focus on improving your life from that point vice pinning your hopes on them coming to an epihany.

I read a lot of true crime accounts of serial killers by FBI profilers thiniking if I understood, it might make more sense out of it. Sorry, nope, not for me. Too foreign. Too out there. I could intellectually grasp the concepts, but came no closer to truly understanding those folks.

Wishing no evil or damnation on those who’ve truly hurt you is in my mind as good a face as any to put on forgiveness. Christ asked for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, but didn’t ask that they be forced to repent or apologize for their actions. Focusing on the tasks at hand with no expectation of recompense or apology from the one who hurt you is forgiveness. Also, forgiveness doesn’t include continuing to have those people in our lives. We can deal with what they’ve done without continuing to allow them in our lives. Parting ways without seeking anything from them is forgiveness as well. Yes, the effects will be there, but we drop the other and consider this the new position in life and offer the pain and suffering to God for ‘the poor souls’ as my mother would put it.

ETA: By the way, try not to let the opinions of others get to you. You know who and what you are. Fools are entitled to be wrong and usually are, don’t let them exercising that option get to you.

 

[ready]

How do you forgive someone who did true, deep damage to your life, who so far as you know has neither suffered any consequences for their actions nor any sign of comprehending that what they did is wrong? People who act in truly criminal ways and then simply walk off behaving as though they were perfectly justified in their actions?

God says in the Scriptures that vengeance is His and in His own time He will give us our due; He also says that we will not be forgiven unless we forgive. So pity the person who has hurt you, forgive him/her and leave his/her punishment to God. You may protect yourself from the person, but forgive him/her from your heart. God bless you.

 

[DarkLight]

God says in the Scriptures that vengeance is His and in His own time He will give us our due; He also says that we will not be forgiven unless we forgive. So pity the person who has hurt you, forgive him/her and leave his/her punishment to God. You may protect yourself from the person, but forgive him/her from your heart. God bless you.

If that’s the rule I guess I’m doomed to hell.

There is no way. I can’t even read my own bible without memories screaming in my head until I cry and can’t see the words. I can’t open my own bank account without flashing back to all the damage other people did. I don’t care about their punishment, I just don’t want to be spending years upon years tortured by what they did with no escape. I didn’t deserve what happened, I was a child who didn’t even know what was going on or how to change anything. Who’d been taught all her life that trying to protect herself was bad and wrong and stupid feminist nonsense that was only for anti-christian man-haters. And I’m going to have to live my entire life paying for what other people did, and somehow I’m supposed to be this little angel that can just forgive like it never mattered and somehow ignore the fact that my life is and probably always will be in ruins. That I’ll never ever be able to do anything with my life or to help anyone else because I’ll be stuck fighting with the effects of what they did. That I’ll never be anything, even good, because trying to be any sort of virtuous sends me into untreatable flashbacks and panic attacks.

 

[josh987654321]

There is no way.

What if there was? what if I told you that this prison your in is locked on the inside and that you have the key?

I can’t even read my own bible without memories screaming in my head until I cry and can’t see the words.

Sell it and get another one, one that looks completely different, such as a different translation like RSV, or start on something like ‘The Diary of St Faustina’

I can’t open my own bank account without flashing back to all the damage other people did.

.

I don’t care about their punishment, I just don’t want to be spending years upon years tortured by what they did with no escape.

What if I said you didn’t have to? what if I said this continued torture was self inflicted?

I didn’t deserve what happened,

Of course.

I was a child who didn’t even know what was going on or how to change anything.

Yes, but are you still that child who doesn’t know whats going on or how to change anything?

Who’d been taught all her life that trying to protect herself was bad and wrong and stupid feminist nonsense that was only for anti-christian man-haters.

Do you still believe that?

And I’m going to have to live my entire life paying for what other people did,

No, please forget about this for the mean time, your not there yet, not even close, praying for our enemies comes after we have forgiven, because after forgiveness, we move from being a victim, to being a victor, and in this new light, we see how wretched they are, not us, and thus our prayers for them come naturally, as we see that it’s they who are to be pitied, because we know better.

and somehow I’m supposed to be this little angel that can just forgive like it never mattered and somehow ignore the fact that my life is and probably always will be in ruins.

No,

You can’t change the things that happened in your life, but you can decide how you interpret and respond to them. If you didn’t receive support when you needed it, give it to yourself now. - Dr Phil

It’s not whether you get knocked down; it’s whether you get up. - Vince Lombardi

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. - Eleanor Roosevelt

That I’ll never ever be able to do anything with my life or to help anyone else because I’ll be stuck fighting with the effects of what they did. That I’ll never be anything, even good, because trying to be any sort of virtuous sends me into untreatable flashbacks and panic attacks.

Untreatable? have you tried to treat them and with what? what if I said 'forgiveness was YOUR cure? that forgiveness would free YOU!?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[DarkLight]

If you speak the truth than freedom is impossible, at least by any means I know. What little exercise will fill a drained bank account or free you from debt? What will restore your family and old friends to you?

I don’t want some fix sometime in the future. I’ve stopped caring - I don’t have the energy to care about how my life might be better in 10 or 20 years when I can hardly stand it now. I just don’t care about then when I wake up now feeling phantom hands on my skin or shaking from nightmares.

 

[josh987654321]

If you speak the truth than freedom is impossible, at least by any means I know. What little exercise will fill a drained bank account or free you from debt? What will restore your family and old friends to you?

I don’t want some fix sometime in the future. I’ve stopped caring - I don’t have the energy to care about how my life might be better in 10 or 20 years when I can hardly stand it now. I just don’t care about then when I wake up now feeling phantom hands on my skin or shaking from nightmares.

If you get a chance, I would strongly encourage you to purchase and read the following book as I believe it will help you greatly.

amazon.com/Life-Strategies-Doing-Works-Matters/dp/0786884592/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-4&qid=1412127800

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[DarkLight]

The trouble I always had with such things is that even as an adult it’s quite possible, easy even, to end up in a situation where you have little to no control. I’ve been through that multiple times, where you just end up in a spot with no good options. You can try all the take control of your life stuff - but that might very well end with you not making rent that month because you need help to live with your health problems and you can’t pay the rent and the doctor’s bills on your own. You try to get some help but you realize that someone made a few false reports on you and now if you don’t toe the line you’re liable to be labelled dangerous and crazy.

 

[ready]

Dear DarkLight,

I am not saying that you may not acknowledge the wrong that has been done to you as very wrong and painful; I am only saying that God expects us all to forgive our enemies. They will not get away with anything – believe me. You would not wish hell on anybody if you truly knew what it is like … and these people will be punished in hell if they do not repent of any major sin of theirs. Please forgive so you can be forgiven … leave the rest up to God and to your enemies. You really should be praying for your enemies. God bless you.

If that’s the rule I guess I’m doomed to hell.

There is no way. I can’t even read my own bible without memories screaming in my head until I cry and can’t see the words. I can’t open my own bank account without flashing back to all the damage other people did. I don’t care about their punishment, I just don’t want to be spending years upon years tortured by what they did with no escape. I didn’t deserve what happened, I was a child who didn’t even know what was going on or how to change anything. Who’d been taught all her life that trying to protect herself was bad and wrong and stupid feminist nonsense that was only for anti-christian man-haters. And I’m going to have to live my entire life paying for what other people did, and somehow I’m supposed to be this little angel that can just forgive like it never mattered and somehow ignore the fact that my life is and probably always will be in ruins. That I’ll never ever be able to do anything with my life or to help anyone else because I’ll be stuck fighting with the effects of what they did. That I’ll never be anything, even good, because trying to be any sort of virtuous sends me into untreatable flashbacks and panic attacks.

 

[DarkLight]

Dear DarkLight,

I am not saying that you may not acknowledge the wrong that has been done to you as very wrong and painful; I am only saying that God expects us all to forgive our enemies. They will not get away with anything – believe me. You would not wish hell on anybody if you truly knew what it is like … and these people will be punished in hell if they do not repent of any major sin of theirs. Please forgive so you can be forgiven … leave the rest up to God and to your enemies. You really should be praying for your enemies. God bless you.

I don’t wish hell on anyone, I really don’t. I just…mostly I wish to not have to put up with the consequences. I’m sick of living with PTSD and sick of the stupid side effects of the drugs I have to take to manage and sick of hearing the same meaningless words from a dozen different therapists. I’m sick of seeing my money drained on stupid bills that wouldn’t be an issue if this mess hadn’t happened and being in debt still. I lost a lot of friends and I put a serious strain on my relationship with my family that’s liable to never fully heal. And I truly wasn’t kidding that it even affects my faith - nasty flashbacks associated with particular Bible passages are a thing, or rising shame when certain topics come up and the constant feeling of being irredeemably stained.

And at the end there’s the knowledge that someone did this. I don’t want them to suffer, really, I just want to not suffer - and if someone must I would rather it be them than me. I would condemn no one to hell, but I would happily see their money taken to fix the debts I incurred dealing with the aftermath.

I hear over and over that I should forgive…but truth to be told I don’t know what that would look like or what the first step towards it would be.

 

[ready]

I apologize for sounding like I thought you would like your enemy to go to hell; I honestly did not think that you wanted anybody in hell … I only mentioned the idea of “not wishing anybody in hell” because it was brought up last night at a doctrine class I had attended. I understand that you are in a great deal of pain and suffering as a result of the horrible treatment you received from somebody who has never apologized to you or compensated you for the great damage they have caused you. They must have been very morally sick to have hurt you so gravely and may still be just as morally sick, you in turn are suffering the consequences of mental pain and suffering and a great need for spiritual healing because of that person’s evil (moral sickness). **They need to repent, and you in charity should pray for them – this will be the first step in your healing. **Believe me when I tell you that the reason so many people are ill and remain ill is because of lack of forgiveness after some major wrong has been committed against them; un-forgiveness causes sickness and in order to heal one MUST forgive his/her abuser/enemy. It sounds like you were most gravely injured, so injured that right now you can’t get yourself to forgive him/her for all the consequences you are enduring as a result of his/her evildoing. This un-forgiveness of yours is literally keeping you sick and enchained to your abuser – you must forgive him/her if you wish to be healed and free.

The truth will set you free: the truth being that God loves you inestimably and only permits to happen to you what ultimately is the best thing for your soul and spiritual life. If our Lord permitted you to get abused (which He did) it is not that He willed the sin or malice of your abuser: it means that He wills for you to suffer the effects of their injurious act against you … in order that you may become more purified and sanctified, and able to atone for your past sins, and in order that you may be able to gain merit for heaven and be made perfect like He is perfect.

The attribute that makes us most like God is mercy/forgiveness. You will excel others in this attribute if you forgive this huge offense of your enemy and its consequences, you will become the most like God of us all – clearly God has plans for you to excel in this virtue or He would not have permitted such a grave abuse against you. Think of how many times we all have sinned gravely against God and how He always forgives us in confession. Your perpetrator may not have apologized to God or to you, but that is his/her defect and problem. You, seek to be perfect like God and forgive. One spiritual work of mercy is the forgiveness of all injuries; another spiritual work of mercy is to bear wrongs patiently; yet another is to pray for the living and the dead. Pray for your enemy’s conversion, pray for patience in your trials and for the ability to forgive your enemy/abuser, and *try hard to be patient in trials and willing to forgive. You must first try hard to be patient and try hard *to forgive, if you wish to be well again and free from counselors who really are powerless to help a person who is unwilling to forgive. Truly, you need to keep patient in your trials and be resolved to forgive more than anything else. It is your inability to forgive that is keeping you in chains to your abuser and counselors who can’t do much at all for an unforgiving person who refuses to accept his cross with all of its weight, pain and suffering .

I’ll pray for you. God bless you.

I don’t wish hell on anyone, I really don’t. I just…mostly I wish to not have to put up with the consequences. I’m sick of living with PTSD and sick of the stupid side effects of the drugs I have to take to manage and sick of hearing the same meaningless words from a dozen different therapists. I’m sick of seeing my money drained on stupid bills that wouldn’t be an issue if this mess hadn’t happened and being in debt still. I lost a lot of friends and I put a serious strain on my relationship with my family that’s liable to never fully heal. And I truly wasn’t kidding that it even affects my faith - nasty flashbacks associated with particular Bible passages are a thing, or rising shame when certain topics come up and the constant feeling of being irredeemably stained.

And at the end there’s the knowledge that someone did this. I don’t want them to suffer, really, I just want to not suffer - and if someone must I would rather it be them than me. I would condemn no one to hell, but I would happily see their money taken to fix the debts I incurred dealing with the aftermath.

I hear over and over that I should forgive…but truth to be told I don’t know what that would look like or what the first step towards it would be.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I’m quoting one of the posters here because I think their response was great.

Wishing no evil or damnation on those who’ve truly hurt you is in my mind as good a face as any to put on forgiveness. Christ asked for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, but didn’t ask that they be forced to repent or apologize for their actions. Focusing on the tasks at hand with no expectation of recompense or apology from the one who hurt you is forgiveness. Also, forgiveness doesn’t include continuing to have those people in our lives. We can deal with what they’ve done without continuing to allow them in our lives. .

I think you have already done this. You wish no harm and desire no revenge. Good. You have achieved a lot.

As for the steps to get there, only God can help you with this. Have you prayed for the grace of inner peace and the ability to let go of the past? Pray for all these things. You need to move on step by step. Nothing will happen over-night. But God wants you to heal and He will lead you in this. Just hand over everything you got: your hope and faith, as well as anger and despair. Even if you don’t feel any differently at first, carry on giving it all over and praying for healing. That’s the first step.

 

[ready]

Dear DarkNight,

True forgiveness doesn’t just involve wishing no harm to an offender; it also requires that we hold no grudge against them. If you, DarkLight, are not holding any grudge, then you have forgiven. Have you a grudge against your offender? E.g. Are you willing to return him/her good for the evil he/she has done? Are you willing to pray for him/her? God bless you.

In Jesu et Maria,
ready

 

[styrgwillidar]

The trouble I always had with such things is that even as an adult it’s quite possible, easy even, to end up in a situation where you have little to no control. I’ve been through that multiple times, where you just end up in a spot with no good options. You can try all the take control of your life stuff - but that might very well end with you not making rent that month because you need help to live with your health problems and you can’t pay the rent and the doctor’s bills on your own. You try to get some help but you realize that someone made a few false reports on you and now if you don’t toe the line you’re liable to be labelled dangerous and crazy.

Yep-- there will always be things outside your control. And things within your control. Focus on controlling those things which you can influence. Hence my quote above and comments re an SOB. You may never be able to understand them, since you aren’t an SOB. You can’t control their thoughts or feelings, hoping they’ll come to some kind of realization just continues to allow them influence in our lives-- waiting, putting things on hold contingent on their actions, not our own.

I’m sorry I don’t think you’ll ever find healing, if that is what you’re looking for- healing as in restoration to a condition as if this hadn’t happend. Like getting over the flu, or chicken pox. It isn’t like that at all and I think the best you can do is adapt, as if you’d been blinded or lost a limb. I’ve met some very joyous people dealing with those kind of conditions, being able to focus on living their lives within the adaptations they have to make to their condition vice being bitter focusing over the loss and what might have been. I don’t think I could do the same, and I admire them tremendously. You may even be able to take your experience and what you’ve learned from it to assist and influence others, may God guide you in that.

Betrayal from someone we’ve counted on, someone who should be close to us-- how’s the line go in a song nowadays, “Sometimes the person who is supposed to take a bullet for you is behind the trigger.” It can destroy your trust in everyone and anyone. It is a very tough thing to get beyond.

I wish there was some kind of ritual you could go through to fully commit to letting go. For me, it was making the decision to petition for a declaration of nullity. Just the decision to file the petition was a concious decision to release any expectations on my own part (regardless of what the church would decide) of her having a place in my life, of any claim on her having obligations to me.

 

[Overture]

This topic reminds me of something Max Lucado (obviously not a Catholic writer/thinker, but has poignant insights and words nonetheless) wrote about forgiveness that I think is great:

Forgiveness is not foolishness.

Forgiveness is, at its core, choosing to see your offender with different eyes. When some Moravian missionaries took the message of God to the Eskimos, the missionaries struggled to find a word in the native language for forgiveness. They finally landed on this cumbersome twenty-four-letter choice: issumagijoujungnainermik. This formidable assembly of letters is literally translated "not being able to think about it anymore."

To forgive is to move on, not to think about the offense anymore. You don’t excuse him, endorse her, or embrace them. You just route thoughts about them through heaven. You see your enemy as God’s child and revenge as God’s job.

By the way, how can we grace-recipients do anything less? Dare we ask God for grace when we refuse to give it? This is a huge issue in Scripture. Jesus was tough on sinners who refused to forgive other sinners. Remember his story about the servant freshly forgiven a debt of millions who refused to forgive a debt equal to a few dollars? He stirred the wrath of God: “You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt … Shouldn’t you have mercy … just as I had mercy on you?” (Matt. 18:32–33 NLT).

In the final sum, we give grace because we’ve been given grace. We survive because we imitate the Survivor Tree. We reach our roots beyond the bomb zone. We tap into moisture beyond the explosion. We dig deeper and deeper until we draw moisture from the mercy of God.

We, like Saul, have been given grace.

We, like David, can freely give it.

 

[DarkLight]

I cannot pray for them. I cannot pray about the whole situation at all. I mean that quite literally - attempting will at best mean that I get dragged away from my prayers into a maze of reliving the trauma, and at worst that I hit a point where I cannot even breathe. Some days I cannot pray at all because any prayer is too much a reminder of what I’ve been through and I cannot psychologically take it without everything spiraling beyond my control.

 

[Overture]

I cannot pray for them. I cannot pray about the whole situation at all. I mean that quite literally - attempting will at best mean that I get dragged away from my prayers into a maze of reliving the trauma, and at worst that I hit a point where I cannot even breathe. Some days I cannot pray at all because any prayer is too much a reminder of what I’ve been through and I cannot psychologically take it without everything spiraling beyond my control.

It sounds like you really should seek out therapy of some kind.

If it’s years on and you’re unable to even think about it without debilitation, then you have PTSD. It’s a common reaction to trauma that a lot of people suffer from. Falling out between friends, bad breakups, families falling apart-- they can all result in it to varying degrees.

It won’t just “get better” unless you actively try to unearth the root of the pain and resolve it in some form or another. And if your spiritual life is on total stand-still-- or worse yet, that you have severely negative connotations with the Word-- then I would say it is extremely urgent that you get attention.

 

[ready]

I’m afraid that unless you forgive others, you will not be forgiven your own sins. It’s that simple. This comes straight from Jesus’ words in the Scriptures. Please ask our Lady to help you to forgive. If thinking about the past is too painful, then tell our Lady that it is too painful for you and ask her to pray for your enemies and to heal your past memories. She will do this for you – just have confidence in her most powerful intercession and pray perseveringly to her. God bless you.

 

[DarkLight]

It sounds like you really should seek out therapy of some kind.

If it’s years on and you’re unable to even think about it without debilitation, then you have PTSD. It’s a common reaction to trauma that a lot of people suffer from. Falling out between friends, bad breakups, families falling apart-- they can all result in it to varying degrees.

It won’t just “get better” unless you actively try to unearth the root of the pain and resolve it in some form or another. And if your spiritual life is on total stand-still-- or worse yet, that you have severely negative connotations with the Word-- then I would say it is extremely urgent that you get attention.

I’ve had therapy. I’ve had a good handful of drugs, including the last one which I nearly died from. I’ve had over a dozen therapists for no avail. I’m done seeking answers there - I know I have PTSD but I don’t have the time and energy to sit around aggravating it with another round of pointless therapy and inane comments and drugs that just make me go even crazier.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m afraid that unless you forgive others, you will not be forgiven your own sins. It’s that simple. This comes straight from Jesus’ words in the Scriptures. Please ask our Lady to help you to forgive. If thinking about the past is too painful, then tell our Lady that it is too painful for you and ask her to pray for your enemies and to heal your past memories. She will do this for you – just have confidence in her most powerful intercession and pray perseveringly to her. God bless you.

Well guess I’m doomed to hell then. God’s forgiveness is worth nothing if it demands that I do what I don’t even understand and reach a goal that still no one can even clearly explain where it is or how I can get there in a way that is actually workable.