How do you handle people who think they know the liturgy?

[Annabelle_Marie]

Not to be a complaint thread but I am looking for resources/solutions. Does anyone else have this problem where you have a few parishioners who think they know the liturgy more then everyone else and constantly label certain things as an “Abuse” even though it may not be so? And how do you hand them and get them to move on? It bothers me that they use what I would call imflamatory language of “abuse” when said things are not. They will gather some snibbet of the internet and cling to it. Are there positive ways to move past that? We are not necessarily a traditional parish as most everyone around here knows but there are not abuses. I myself have so much to work on myself but I was looking on how to help these people move past this stuck spot.

Any ideas?

 

[27lw]

Hmmm. What kinds of things do they complain about? Have you recently had a change of priests? Is there a possibility that there are some abuses actually going on? Hard to know how to respond when we don’t have any idea of the context and issues.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Hmmm. What kinds of things do they complain about? Have you recently had a change of priests? Is there a possibility that there are some abuses actually going on? Hard to know how to respond when we don’t have any idea of the context and issues.

No change of priests but there is a change of music directors…but a more traditional director is coming in…not the one that they want. We are also building a new church. Our old one is deteriorating but was never pretty…,in fact it was originally supposed to be temporary.

Let’s see:

Projector…right now we have a slopes roof so it does not cover the crucifix
People in other masses that cross the isle during the sign of peace
Altar servers who are girls
At first with the church it was that the drawing didn’t have a crucifix
Music not sacred enough…not sure what sacred enough means…,
Low gluten host used for those who need them
People holding hands during Our Father

That type of thing. Not outright abuses but preference thing…but presented as abuses.

 

[RoseMary131]

I was looking on how to help these people move past this stuck spot.

Any ideas?

Some people do not want to move past their sticking spots. Some people wouldn’t be happy if Pope Francis told them not to be concerned.

You can bring yourself peace by excusing yourself from the conversation when it arises.

 

[Corki]

No change of priests but there is a change of music directors…but a more traditional director is coming in…not the one that they want. We are also building a new church. Our old one is deteriorating but was never pretty…,in fact it was originally supposed to be temporary.

Let’s see:

Projector…right now we have a slopes roof so it does not cover the crucifix
People in other masses that cross the isle during the sign of peace
Altar servers who are girls
At first with the church it was that the drawing didn’t have a crucifix
Music not sacred enough…not sure what sacred enough means…,
Low gluten host used for those who need them
People holding hands during Our Father

That type of thing. Not outright abuses but preference thing…but presented as abuses.

Most of these things, by themselves, are not really a problem (except crossing the aisle during the Sign of Peace - that’s a real abuse). However if all of these are happening at a single parish, it’s no wonder people are getting upset.

The best defense against false claims of abuse is to become familiar with the documents. If it’s allowed, you’ll be able to find documentation that supports it.

 

[Karen107]

Why is it a problem to cross the aisle to make the sign of peace. What if there was only one other person on the other side of the aisle. Or what if the person on the other side is in a wheelchair spot. Does that mean they can’t share the sign of peace? Am I in the wrong place or something?

 

[MorEphrem]

Why is it a problem to cross the aisle to make the sign of peace. What if there was only one other person on the other side of the aisle. Or what if the person on the other side is in a wheelchair spot. Does that mean they can’t share the sign of peace? Am I in the wrong place or something?

Yes, the exact that you think peace must be physically communicated between two parties to be a passing of peace is very problematic and it ignores the fact that it is simply a ritual. It should normatively be, anyway, peace to the people to your immediate left and right. When it drags on and people start reaching over three pews to touch someone’s hand it becomes a liturgy focused on the individuals rather than worship - that is the fundamental difference between a Protestant praise&worship service and a proper mass. If sharing peace constitutes the physical interaction between two people then wouldn’t you want to maximize your peace quantity and share it with the entire congregation? Problematic, of course; thank God that’s not the metaphysics or symbol behind sharing peace.

On topic: to respond to the OP, I would simply ignore it. It just causes aggravation and separation in the community. If you think what they’re saying does not actually constitute abuses then just leave it to the pastor, who’s job it is.

 

[Corki]

Why is it a problem to cross the aisle to make the sign of peace. What if there was only one other person on the other side of the aisle. Or what if the person on the other side is in a wheelchair spot. Does that mean they can’t share the sign of peace? Am I in the wrong place or something?

Because the** actual instruction** reads:

As for the actual sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by the Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. However, it is appropriate that each person, in a sober manner, offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest.

Now, if the OP is talking about a small daily Mass when there are only a handful of people present, then I don’t think anyone would object. But if you are talking about a Sunday Mass where some people offer the Sign of Peace to those next to, in front, behind** and then** go across the aisle to greet more people, that would be going against the instruction. The latter example is much more likely to promote grumbling from purists than the former.

 

[ProVobis]

No change of priests but there is a change of music directors…but a more traditional director is coming in…not the one that they want. We are also building a new church. Our old one is deteriorating but was never pretty…,in fact it was originally supposed to be temporary.

Let’s see:

Projector…right now we have a slopes roof so it does not cover the crucifix
People in other masses that cross the isle during the sign of peace
Altar servers who are girls
At first with the church it was that the drawing didn’t have a crucifix
Music not sacred enough…not sure what sacred enough means…,
Low gluten host used for those who need them
People holding hands during Our Father

That type of thing. Not outright abuses but preference thing…but presented as abuses.

None of these things appear illegal. However, abuse isn’t necessarily confined to illegal activities. In civil court, the judge would decide if something is abusive and to what degree. FWIW, according to the Wiki definition.

Abuse is the improper usage or treatment of an entity, often to unfairly or improperly gain benefit. Abuse can come in many forms, such as: physical or verbal maltreatment, injury, sexual assault, violation, rape, unjust practices; wrongful practice or custom; offense; crime, or otherwise verbal aggression.[1]

It seems as if the priest or bishop is in a better position of what would be considered abusive in that parish or diocese.

 

[mdgspencer]

If someone complained about such things to me, I wouldn’t consider it my problem. Why worry about it?
Of course, it a family member spoke to me about this, I would want to talk with them about it.
Some of these things may actually be inappropriate though, but this is another matter.

 

[Luz_Maria]

Now, if the OP is talking about a small daily Mass when there are only a handful of people present, then I don’t think anyone would object. But if you are talking about a Sunday Mass where some people offer the Sign of Peace to those next to, in front, behind** and then** go across the aisle to greet more people, that would be going against the instruction. The latter example is much more likely to promote grumbling from purists than the former.

If you think that is “bad”, try having people going to the back on one side and then up to the front in the middle isle shaking people’s hands?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Some people do not want to move past their sticking spots. Some people wouldn’t be happy if Pope Francis told them not to be concerned.

You can bring yourself peace by excusing yourself from the conversation when it arises.

This is the best advice for all of us. Let’s not get hung up on the sign of peace. It may be mayhem, but likely it’s not.

To the OP, I would come up with some version of “Oh, I don’t know if that’s a problem Have you asked Fr. Pastor?” say it at the beginning of these conversations and then change the subject.

Look how often we go around on these topics here in these forums. And as RoseMary said, bringing out official documents or statements of the Pope (present or past) doesn’t usually help to calm someone down.

Pray for your friends and encourage them to pray for peace as well. Then let it go.

 

[johnnyc176]

Not to be a complaint thread but I am looking for resources/solutions. Does anyone else have this problem where you have a few parishioners who think they know the liturgy more then everyone else and constantly label certain things as an “Abuse” even though it may not be so? And how do you hand them and get them to move on? It bothers me that they use what I would call imflamatory language of “abuse” when said things are not. They will gather some snibbet of the internet and cling to it. Are there positive ways to move past that? We are not necessarily a traditional parish as most everyone around here knows but there are not abuses. I myself have so much to work on myself but I was looking on how to help these people move past this stuck spot.

Any ideas?

Liturgical abuse is still a concern although it is getting better. Isn’t it a good sign that they are concerned? I don’t see the problem. If there is no abuse going on and you know that for a fact then explain it to them or find documentation to show them. Then the next step would be to take it up with Fr.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Liturgical abuse is still a concern although it is getting better. Isn’t it a good sign that they are concerned? I don’t see the problem. If there is no abuse going on and you know that for a fact then explain it to them or find documentation to show them. Then the next step would be to take it up with Fr.

The problem is that they create division and when I show documentation…they don’t listen. They are passionate and I appreciate that but I just don’t think you should use the word ABUSE if in fact it is not. You might not like something (such as altar girls) but it is not in and of itself is abuse and to call it as such is wrong. It’s fine in my mind to say that you prefer that there were no altar girls but you have to leave it at Fr.'s decision and the Bishop. Some of these things they won’t do that…and get other’s riled up and “educate” them–wrongly. I care for them but I also care for our parish and hate to see people getting others riled up over such things that are not.

I myself prefer not to call wolf when there is no wolf. I would leave the wolf for the true ABUSE’s.

For the sign of peace…yes you can educate the laity…which Fr has done but unless you handcuff people to their pews…sometimes you can’t stop it.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The problem is that they create division and when I show documentation…they don’t listen. They are passionate and I appreciate that but I just don’t think you should use the word ABUSE if in fact it is not. You might not like something (such as altar girls) but it is not in and of itself is abuse and to call it as such is wrong. It’s fine in my mind to say that you prefer that there were no altar girls but you have to leave it at Fr.'s decision and the Bishop. Some of these things they won’t do that…and get other’s riled up and “educate” them–wrongly. I care for them but I also care for our parish and hate to see people getting others riled up over such things that are not.

I myself prefer not to call wolf when there is no wolf. I would leave the wolf for the true ABUSE’s.

For the sign of peace…yes you can educate the laity…which Fr has done but unless you handcuff people to their pews…sometimes you can’t stop it.

Showing them documentation won’t help, as you have discovered. Some people aren’t happy unless they have something to complain about. At this point, your best bet is to deflect the conversations and pray. I will say a prayer for them also.

 

[Corki]

If you think that is “bad”, try having people going to the back on one side and then up to the front in the middle isle shaking people’s hands?

Yes, we have a few of those too. Luckily it’s a small Church.

Things got so bad for a while that Father chose not to do the optional shared Sign of Peace at all.

 

[Luz_Maria]

Yes, we have a few of those too. Luckily it’s a small Church.

Things got so bad for a while that Father chose not to do the optional shared Sign of Peace at all.

That is a good idea . . . but then Father will have a revolt!! :frighten: :stretcher: Well, not that bad! Just need to laugh some times

 

[bben15]

No change of priests but there is a change of music directors…but a more traditional director is coming in…not the one that they want. We are also building a new church. Our old one is deteriorating but was never pretty…,in fact it was originally supposed to be temporary.

Let’s see:

Projector…right now we have a slopes roof so it does not cover the crucifix I don’t understand what you are saying
People in other masses that cross the isle during the sign of peace **Not allowed. You can only give the sign of peace to those immediately around you. **
Altar servers who are girls Allowed, if permitted by the bishop
At first with the church it was that the drawing didn’t have a crucifix All churches have to have a crucifix
Music not sacred enough…not sure what sacred enough means…, Music doesn’t have to be sacred. In fact, music doesn’t have to be used at all
Low gluten host used for those who need them Allowed, if permission from the bishop is present
People holding hands during Our Father Widespread Abuse

That type of thing. Not outright abuses but preference thing…but presented as abuses.

 

[clem456]

Not to be a complaint thread but I am looking for resources/solutions. Does anyone else have this problem where you have a few parishioners who think they know the liturgy more then everyone else and constantly label certain things as an “Abuse” even though it may not be so? And how do you hand them and get them to move on? It bothers me that they use what I would call imflamatory language of “abuse” when said things are not. They will gather some snibbet of the internet and cling to it. Are there positive ways to move past that? We are not necessarily a traditional parish as most everyone around here knows but there are not abuses. I myself have so much to work on myself but I was looking on how to help these people move past this stuck spot.

Any ideas?

You have many concerns and anxieties. How will you grow closer to God when these concerns occupy you?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You have many concerns and anxieties. How will you grow closer to God when these concerns occupy you?

That’s what worries me. This same people have a concern that these things distract them from the Mass. I worry that the discord distracts us from Christ.

There really is no way to force people to stop holding hands during the Our Father. Like
poor Fr. Is going to go down and force everyone?

Things like the comment about the crucifix for the new church…it was a drawing…of course our new church will have a crucifix.,.they just could not wait and be patient about it.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will try and have peace about it.