How do you handle the inevitable Crusades and Inquisition charges?

[DominvsVobiscvm]

A lot of common sense goes a long way.

When a dog is whining uncontrollably, and won’t respond to reason, you don’t discourse him through it. You shut him up by putting him to sleep.

What response would you give to blacks who demand slave reparations, or those Egyptian lawyuers a year ago who wanted to sue Israel for money and goods taken by the Jews from Egypt during the Exodus?

An irrational complaint does not deserve a rational reply.

And in any event, I did rationally respond to your Church’s continued whine against Catholics for something done 800 years ago. I’m only sorry that our Holy Father doesn’t have the guts to turn to you guys and tell you to shut up and get over it.

Yeah, it’s blunt. But it’s the truth.

 

[Kurt_G]

Gentlemen, back to the original Crusades/Constantinople discussion:

After reading the good historical posts here (both ways), and along with re-reading a few spots in my “Crusades” book, I would conclude the following:

1. To suggest that the Pope at the time did anything other than try to stop the planned attack on Constantinople is inaccurate and misleading. What transpired afterward does not appear to bring blame upon the Pope for something he tried to stop in the first place. One is playing “mind games” to try to read it otherwise.

The fact that most Catholics (even clergy) did not listen to the Pope is only too similar to the racial slavery issue which began in the Canary Islands (1400’s), and of course, to today’s issue of abortions, encouraged and supported by many secular governments.

1. To suggest that the Crusades were aimed at the Jewish population as much as Islam brings a question to my mind…

Question: For the first 650 or better years, were there not Jews and Christians living side by side in the Holy Land? I’m not suggesting that they were “best buddies”, only that the skirmishes and differences between Christians and Jews had not taken on such monumental proportions until after Islam came along. Did Islam stir the pot that much? I don’t know, but if someone wants to offer an opinion, I’d like to see it.

GOD BLESS US ALL!

 

[RobbyS]

caroljm36:

The people I’m talking with inevitably are non-believers, who think religion is “outdated,” “disproved” by Science, and is responsible for all wars and bloodshed. This at the same time wars are imputed with economic motivations (go figure). Even the ones who fancy themselves educated know very little history and these are huge topics. I don’t like the comparative atrocities angle, or the “nobody’s perfect” angle because I fear they make no headway with this sort of skeptic. Yet I don’t think they’re hopeless; they just haven’t heard a good argument and won’t seek one out.

Obviously, I need to study this more because from the posts above I see there were legal & social angles–like the idea of locals depending on ecclesiastical courts etc. and trying to prevent more bloodshed over heresies–I think there is a lot of promise there. Slay 'em with history! I have studied English legal history and it’s amazing how the various courts and remedies developed. Most people don’t know much history and a few facts could go a long way.

Thanks.

The Spanish Inquisition has the character of a national tragedy.
Many Spanish Jews converted to Catholicism with al the good, miexed and bad intentions that Mexican immigrants convert to American evangelicalism. Their mistake was in prospering and by retaining as family practice some Jewish customs. This left them vulnerable to the machinations of the “old” Catholics who sought to use the law to dispossess the Christian Jews.

 

[prodromos]

Dear DominvsVobiscvm,
you seem to have misunderstood my reason for posting in this thread. I have simply responded to a few Catholic posters’ opinions that the crusades were a good thing, when they clearly were not, and for my efforts you liken me to a whining dog in need of being put down. For the record I also get upset when so called “historians” claim that the Jewish holocaust of WWII never happened. I suppose I deserve a lethal injection for that too, or perhaps a bullet would be more your style.

John.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The Crusades were just wars, however flawed in their execution.

And their overall effect perhaps was good, insofar as they at least put a check on the spread of Islam.

I know you can’t see past Constantinople, Prodromos, but do know that the world is larger than than Byzantinium. And that its Emperors have their fair blame in Crusades’ tragedies as well.

 

[prodromos]

DominvsVobiscvm:

The Crusades were just wars, however flawed in their execution.

And their overall effect perhaps was good, insofar as they at least put a check on the spread of Islam.

I know you can’t see past Constantinople, Prodromos, but do know that the world is larger than than Byzantinium. And that its Emperors have their fair blame in Crusades’ tragedies as well.

Can’t see passed Constantinople? I thought I made it clear that all but the first were miserable failures. My only point on Constantinople is that the Pope at the time was not as innocent of guilt as he is made out to be.

Look, the fourth crusade has absolutely no impact on me, what’s done is done and I most certainly do not hold Catholics today responsible for the sins of their fathers. What does affect me is when people try to whitewash history and present the crusades as a really good thing rather than being willing to accept that some Catholics have at times in history done really bad things. I am horrified for example at what Russian Orthodox did to the Jews in the past because they did not associate the Paschal hymns regarding the actions of the Jews towards Christ with their own sinfulness and rebellion, but took them as a statement of the continued nature of the Jewish people and in their anger madde violent attacks against the Jews in their community. I accept that this really happened and acknowledge with shame that it was my own brethren who commited these attrocities. I do not try to make out that it didn’t really happen or that reports have been blown out of proportion, yet this is what I see all too often among Catholics whenever the crusades are brought up. It is not healthy.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

It is interesting that this thread has suddenly picked up. The last few days’ posts have been very interesting.

Dw & I took Da Boyz (Yohanan, who will be 8 in a few weeks & Naor, who just turned 4) up to the Galilee for a few days’ vacation this past August. We had a picnic lunch at the Goren National Park & enjoyed its spectacular view of the crusaders’ Montfort Castle accross the steep, wooded, valley of the Keziv stream (see gemsinisrael.com/monfortgoren.html). Yohanan asked about the castle & I told him that it was built by a group of Christians who were fighting with a group of Muslims over which one of them owned the Land. He thought that that was a real hoot: Christians & Muslims fighting over something that belongs to neither.

(gemsinisrael.com/crusaders.html is a very good source for info on the Crusaders & Crusader sites in Israel. The view of the upper Jordan Valley, the lower Galilee, the heights of Gilead in Jordan & the Golan Heights from the Crusaders’ Belvoir Castle tinyurl.com/489fq is awesome. The castle at Yehiam tinyurl.com/5dj8h in the western Galilee is pretty neat too.)

One of the worst aspects of the Inquisition was its effect on Catholic Spain. Charges that we were corrupting/manipulating the both “New Christians” and “old Catholics” were at the heart of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled us from Spain. The leader of the Spanish Jewish community at the time, our great Sage, Don Isaac Abrabanel (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/abrabanel.htm) had one final audience with King Ferdinand & Queen Isabella before the Decree took effect. He told them:

Your Majesties, Abraham Senior and I thank you for this opportunity to make our last statement on the behalf of the Jewish communities that we represent. Counts, dukes, and marquees of the court, cavaliers and ladies… it is no great honor when a Jew is asked to plead for the safety of his people.

But it is a greater disgrace when the King and Queen of Castile and Aragon, indeed of all Spain, have to seek their glory in the expulsion of a harmless people.

I find it very difficult to understand how every Jewish man, woman, and child can be a threat to the Catholic faith. Very, very strong charges.

We destroy you?

It is indeed the opposite. Did you not admit in this edict to having confined all Jews to restricted quarters and to having limited our legal and social privileges, not to mention forcing us to wear shameful badges? Did you not tax us oppressively? Did you not terrorize us day and night with your diabolical Inquisition? Let me make this matter perfectly clear to all present: I will not allow the voice of Israel to be stilled on this day.

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, King and Queen of Spain, for I, Isaac Abravanel, speak unto you. I and my family are descended directly from King David. True royal bold, the blood of the Messiah, runs in my veins. It is my inheritance, and I proclaim it now in the name of the God of Israel.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

On behalf of my people, the people of Israel, the chosen of God, I declare them blameless and innocent of all crimes declared in this edict of abomination. The crime, the transgression, is for you, not us, to bear. The unrighteous decree you proclaim today will be your downfall. And this year,which you imagine to be the year of Spain’s greatest glory, will become of Spain’s greatest shame.

As honor is the reward of individual virtue, so too worldly renown of kings and queens is their proper due for noble deeds. So, too, when unseemly acts are committed by and individual, that person’s reputation’s suffers. And when kings and queens commit shameful deeds, they do themselves great harm. As it is said, the greater the person who errs, the greater the error.

Errors, if recognized early, can be corrected. The loosened brick that supports the structure can be reinserted into position. So, too, a mistaken edict if caught in time can be undone. But religious zeal has undermined reason, and misguided counsel has perverted sound judgement. The error of the edict will soon become irreversible as the very deed which it proclaims.

Yes, my king and queen, hear me well: error, your error, profound and uncorrectable, the likes of which Spain has never seen before. You and you alone are responsible. As arms measure the might of a nation, so arts and letters measure its finer sensibilities. Yes, you have humbled the Moslem infidel with the force of your army, proving yourselves able in the art of war. But what of your inner state of mind? By what right do your Inquisitors go about the countryside burning books by the thousands in public bonfires? By what authority do churchmen now want to burn the immense Arabic library of this great Moorish palace and destroy its priceless manuscripts? By whose rights? By whose authority? Why, it is by your authority, my king and queen. In your heart of hearts, you distrust the power of knowledge, and you respect only power. With us Jews it is different. We Jews cherish knowledge immensely. In our homes and in our prayer houses, learning is a lifelong pursuit. Learning is our lifelong passion; it is at the core of our being; it is the reason, according to our sages, for which we were created. Our fierce love of learning could have counterbalanced your excessive love of might. We could have benefited from the protection offered by your royal arms, and you could have profited the more from our community’s advancement and exchange of knowledge. I say to you we could have helped each other.

As we are reminded of our own powerlessness, so your nation will suffer from the forces of disequilibrium that you have set in motion. For centuries to come, your descendants will pay dearly for your mistake of the present. As it is might of arms you most admire, you shall verily become a nation of conquerors - lusting after gold and spoils, living by the sword and ruling with a fist of mail.

Yet you shall become a nation of illiterates; your institutions of learning, fearing the heretical contamination of alien ideas from other lands, and other peoples, will no longer be respected. In the course of time, the once great name of Spain will become a whispered byword among the nations: Spain, the poor ignorant has-been; Spain, the nation which showed so much promise and yet accomplished so little.

And then one day Spain will ask itself: what has become of us? Why are we a laughing - stock among nations? And the Spaniards of that day will look into their past and ask themselves why this came to be. And those who are honest will point to this day and this age as the time when their fall as a nation began. And the cause of their downfall will be shown to be none other than their revered Catholic sovereigns, Ferdinand and Isabella, conquerors of the Moors, expellers of the Jews, founders of the Inquisition, and destroyers of the inquiring Spanish mind.

(…).

(The full texts of both the Alhambra Decree & Rabbi Abrabanel’s remarks are at tinyurl.com/6tlfy.)

Be well!

ssv

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Inquisition Requires Calm, Objective Analysis - Pope John Paul II

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=695

 

[SCTA-1]

I believe there is a movement calling for sainthood for Queen Isabella.Are they for real? I don’t believe a saintly person would exile innocent men,women and children to an unknown fate.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

SCTA-1:

I believe there is a movement calling for sainthood for Queen Isabella.Are they for real? I don’t believe a saintly person would exile innocent men,women and children to an unknown fate.

***Beatification still possible for Queen Isabella ***

Rome, Nov. 26 (CWNews.com) - Queen Isabella of Spain died 500 years ago today: on November 26, 1504. But contrary to some reports in the Spanish press, the Vatican did not announce plans for her beatification-- nor was any such announcement under consideration.

The cause for the beatification of “Isabella the Catholic” is still being assessed by historians, according to informed Vatican officials. The Spanish queen, who was the patron of Christopher Columbus, has roused controversy because of her expulsion of Jews from the Spanish kingdom in the same year: 1492. Historians are now studying the circumstances surrounding that decision, trying to achieve a balanced view of her policy.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

SCTA-1, see tinyurl.com/4rojk & isfsp.org/press-isabella.html.

tinyurl.com/3a66s is a good article on the history of the Spanish Inquisition from an orthodox Jewish point-of-view.

Be well!

ssv

 

[SCTA-1]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

SCTA-1, see tinyurl.com/4rojk & isfsp.org/press-isabella.html.

tinyurl.com/3a66s is a good article on the history of the Spanish Inquisition from an orthodox Jewish point-of-view.

Be well!

ssv

I read somewhere that if you were a practicing Jew in Spain at that time you were left alone.They were only after the traitors.How does Henry Kamen deal with this in his book about the Spanish Inquisition? He is a Jewish author and I heard the book is pretty good.Now I read the account about all of this in Warren’s Carroll’s book’s and these articles seem to contradict some of the historical reports I read.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

. If you played a word association game with most orthodox Jews like myself, who know something about the history, and said, “Crusades,” we would probably respond with words like “Fire,” “Blood,” “Slaughter,” and the like.

Dear stillsmallvoice,

Just one quick question that has been on my mind lo these many years (and please forgive if it seems too great a digression): Am I mistaken when I respond to the word “Joshua” with words like, “Slaughter” or “Ethnic Cleansing?”

Or to the words “Abraham” and “Moses” with “Extortion?”



Be well,

Anna

 

[Immaculata]

Interesting reading from a live broadcast on* Catholic Answers by* FR. PAUL MARY VOTA.
queenisabel.com/isabelnews_a.html

His facts were taken from a BBC produced documentary made from first-time ever studies of the archives in Spain.

“The researchers and historians discovered that every single case that came to the Inquisition had its own file, detailed and exhaustive, and what made the files even more valuable is that they were not intended for the public - they were all for internal use. … Views concerning the Inquisition, even the views of those who made the documentary, have been changed by opening up the archives…The Jewish Professor Henry Kamen from the Higher Council for Scientific Research, who was one of the ones making the documentary, stated that studying the archives of the Inquisition ‘demolished the previous image that all of us had’. The documentary admits that the previous image of the Inquisition had been conjured up by Catholic Spain’s enemies when it was apparent they could not defeat Spain on the battlefield…”
%between%
“How many people were put to death by the Catholic Inquisition during the entire 16th century when it was at its height? Remember, that’s a hundred years. Not too long ago we had the 70 years of the Communist Revolution. In 70 years they got a lot done - 40,000,000 people killed in Ukraine and Russia, 80,000,000 in China, 2,000,000 in Cambodia, 1,000,000 in Spain - they really did a lot in 70 years. Okay. According to the study made by the BBC documentary, the number for the entire 16th century that were executed by the Catholic Spanish Inquisition was 40-50. Period. There’re no numbers after that. 40-50 people. There were more people executed in 1 day during the French Revolution. In 1 day in the French Revolution, more people were executed than were executed by the Spanish Inquisition in the whole 16th century at its height.”

 

[RobedWithLight]

SCTA-1:

I read somewhere that if you were a practicing Jew in Spain at that time you were left alone.They were only after the traitors.How does Henry Kamen deal with this in his book about the Spanish Inquisition? He is a Jewish author and I heard the book is pretty good.Now I read the account about all of this in Warren’s Carroll’s book’s and these articles seem to contradict some of the historical reports I read.

Actually, the Spanish Inquisition established by Isabella was intended for those who pretended to be Christians, viewed as potential traitors who might be secretly supporting the Turks. The Turks had earlier massacred 12,000 people in the southern Italian city of Otranto, while those who had survived the massive killing were sold to slavery. The Spanish simply feared the Turks would do the same to them.

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Prodromos:

Quit whining.

The Byzantines had their fair share of massacres upon Latin cities and churches. Let’s not go there.

To be more precise, Byzantines reportedly massacred the Latin [western] residents of Constantinople in 1182. A similar incident occured to the Venetians in 1171 with at least the tacit approval of the Empire. These two incidents, curiously are not mentioned by critics of the Crusades.

Nevertheless, I agree with the statement that the Crusades were just wars, though badly executed.

Gerry

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Anna Elizabeth, you posted:

Am I mistaken when I respond to the word “Joshua” with words like, “Slaughter” or “Ethnic Cleansing?”

Or to the words “Abraham” and “Moses” with “Extortion?”

The difference is that Joshua received a personal & direct command from God Himself to do what he did (likewise King Saul & the Amalekites).

When did Abraham & Moses extort anything from anybody?

SCTA-1, you posted:

I read somewhere that if you were a practicing Jew in Spain at that time you were left alone.They were only after the traitors.

Hardly. All 200,000 thousand Jews who were expelled from Spain (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html) could hardly have been traitors. Rabbi Abrabanel himself had loyally served Ferdinand & Isabella:

In 1484 King Ferdinand invited him to be the collector of royal revenues, even though it was illegal for a Jew to hold such a high position AND the Spanish Inquisition was in full swing. Abravanel accepted the job, not only because finance was his field of expertise, but also because he felt that such a close relationship with Ferdinand might prove useful in protecting the Jews from Torquemada. This is not to say that the position did not also serve him well. Although he was probably able to have smuggled some of his fortune out of Portugal, by 1488 his tax-farming activity must have brought him considerable gain, because from that year on we have repeated evidence of huge loans — comprising millions of maravedis — which he made to the queen and to the war treasury of the state.

Although he was a tax farmer in the leading districts of south and central Castile, this was not the extent of his influence in Spain. He served as the queen’s private, business, and financial agent and fulfilled the many tasks which this entailed. Many historians cite his loan of 1,500,000 maravedis to Queen Isabella to further the Spanish war effort in Grenada as an indicator of both his fortune and his ability to mobilize it for the fulfillment of the aims of the crown.

Link: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Abravanel.html

Suddenly Rabbi Abrabanel became a traitor?!

I’ll just cite the following excerpt from the above link on our expulsion from Spain:

Tens of thousands of refugees died while trying to reach safety. In some instances, Spanish ship captains charged Jewish passengers exorbitant sums, then dumped them overboard in the middle of the ocean. In the last days before the expulsion, rumors spread throughout Spain that the fleeing refugees had swallowed gold and diamonds, and many Jews were knifed to death by brigands hoping to find treasures in their stomachs.

The Jews’ expulsion had been the pet project of the Spanish Inquisition, headed by Father Tomas de Torquemada. Torquemada believed that as long as the Jews remained in Spain, they would influence the tens of thousands of recent Jewish converts to Christianity to continue practicing Judaism. Ferdinand and Isabella rejected Torquemada’s demand that the Jews be expelled until January 1492, when the Spanish Army defeated Muslim forces in Granada, thereby restoring the whole of Spain to Christian rule. With their most important project, the country’s unification, accomplished, the king and queen concluded that the Jews were expendable. On March 30, they issued the expulsion decree, the order to take effect in precisely four months. The short time span was a great boon to the rest of Spain, as the Jews were forced to liquidate their homes and businesses at absurdly low prices.

I have seen that the late Pope John XXIII (of blessed memory!) is also en route to canonization. Queen Isabella is in the same league as this holy man??!!

How does Henry Kamen deal with this in his book about the Spanish Inquisition? He is a Jewish author and I heard the book is pretty good.Now I read the account about all of this in Warren’s Carroll’s book’s and these articles seem to contradict some of the historical reports I read.

I am not familiar with either of these books.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Steven_Merten]

I have heard rumors indicating that Pope John Paul II is thinking of putting the death penalty in the same “culture of death” catagory as abortion. If so, does this equate Popes of the past who executed heritics as equal to modern day abortionists? If we have two Popes of equal authority with exact opposite teachings, how does this relate to the Church’s belief that all papal decisions, in regard to protecting the faith, are absolutely made with the guidance of Jesus.

Also what about St. Peter? He knew that his inquisition of Sapphira would kill her (Acts 5).

What about excommunication? Provided you do not think excommunication is a harmless idle threat, it uses the threat of spiritually destructive force against a person’s soul to attain a protective outcome. The protection is for either the person excommunicated and/or the body of the Church.

Jesus commands His Church that if Her hand, foot or eye is Her undoing, She is to cut it off and throw it into Gehenna. Jesus says that it is better for the Church to enter into heaven without a hand or foot than to have It’s whole body cast into Gehenna. If an Apostolic successor calls upon Jesus to hold a man bound to his sin in heaven, is not the sinner cut off from the life of the body of the Church and cast into hell? When Old Testament leaders stoned a person, they did so in light of cutting a culprit off from the body of the Church for the protection of the Church. Throwing Stones

I do believe that there were and can be abuses when Church leaders use deadly force, spiritual or physical, to protect the Church. Still I believe that it is Jesus’ will to use deadly force, spiritual or physical, in the protection of His people. I think it is ill advised to use a short present day fad against the death penalty as your standard for judging 2000 years of Church actions.

NAB ACTS 5
A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. He retained for himself, with his wife’s knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.
After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her, “Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?” She answered, “Yes, for that amount.” Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Kurt_G]

Steven Merten:

I have heard rumors indicating that Pope John Paul II is thinking of putting the death penalty in the same “culture of death” catagory as abortion. If so, does this equate Popes of the past who executed heritics as equal to modern day abortionists? If we have two Popes of equal authority with exact opposite teachings, how does this relate to the Church’s belief that all papal decisions, in regard to protecting the faith, are absolutely made with the guidance of Jesus…

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

Good subject, as it was a “hot” one at our adult Scripture study 2 weeks ago…

The sanctity of life in the womb, and hence condemnation of abortion, has been Church teaching since the years had 2 digits (The Didache), so no new discoveries about Church standing there.

The discussion of the **death penalty **looks more complicated.It seems the Church teaches that society does have a moral obligation to protect its citizens from extreme harm. In certain cases citizens must be removed from contact with society.

The question then becomes “How are such dangerous persons to be removed from society?”

One example I have heard on tape (Father Chacon) goes something like this:
For extremely poor societies, lacking the necessary wealth required to keep such dangerous criminals in continuous confinement, it may be necessary to utilize a death penatly for the protection of society. In the past, economic realities which necessitated the death penalty may have existed more frequently, in more countries, than today.

But in today’s world those conditions which require a death penalty are “almost nonexistent”. Therefore, we would view legitimate use of the death penalty in today’s world as “almost nonexistent”.

I can see what you’re suggesting, Steven. It’s just that the death penalty and abortion don’t seem to have ever been viewed in the same moral position.

Abortion has always been viewed to be always wrong.

**The Death Penalty seems always to have a *legitimate use, provided * the proper “theoretical circumstances” are in place (which today is almost never). **

But, we’ll just have to see what the Pope says, if anything…

God Bless Us All!