How do you justify

[Phemie]

It’s not a lot of fun when people give you that dirty look when you walk down the aisles with the baskets. .

Did you ever stop to think that what you consider a dirty look may be the result of embarrassment because they’ve got nothing to put in your basket – often for a perfectly good reason.

I read at the anticipated Sunday Mass but often then accompany my husband to the Sunday morning Mass. It’s weird how embarrassing it is not to put something in the plate on Sunday morning in spite of the fact that my envelope was put in the night before. I usually avoid the usher’s eye when he takes up the collection and busy myself with something else.

Others I’ve run across are embarrassed enough by this that they have started splitting their regular offering in 1/2 and putting 1/2 in a plain envelope so that they have something to put in the basket at the second Mass they attend. Knowing that there are those out there taking up collection who think like you do doesn’t help.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I arrived a little late for Mass a few weeks ago. Here’s why. I take public transportation and the bus driver was new and dawdled a bit at one of her rest stops. I was embarrassed. Excuse me for saying so, but some people can’t help it and therefore no one should be looked at in judgement. Besides, when someone is late it is that person who loses out so they are to be pitied and prayed for.

Here is an idea. How about doing a survey to find out what your fellow parishioners ideas are about giving? What are the barriers? Joblessness? How many are living on a limited income? Maybe there are ministries your parish can start - or energize - in order to help people meet their needs so that those who can’t give money will be able to. How about a ministry to help people find jobs. Someone in the parish community may be good with that. Maybe a ministry to help people budget and manage money.

Maybe attitudes towards giving need to be changed. How about a lecture series about tithing? How about setting financial goals for your parish and showing parishioners how the collection is helping to meet those goals? Maybe have a collection campaign and have a giant graft in the vestible that shows the progress. I’m just throwing out some ideas because I think actually finding a solution to what is seen as a problem is better than wondering why people don’t give, imagining dirty looks, and judging others without even knowing what their story is. If your parish has a problem with people giving, then it needs to be solved at a pro-active parish community level. Those are my thoughts.

As for dirty looks when you walk down the aisle with the basket, you may be projecting what your own thoughts are, but if there are really dirty looks and malise then your parish community needs to be awakened on this issue.

I really think that there is no need to be embarrassed at all if one does not put in an envelope for whatever reason. The ushers are there at collection time to collect the money and that is it. Any thing else is none of their business. They are not the “money police” and are quite aware of the fact that people give by different means, and that some cannot give, etc. I have never seen anything remotely resembling a dirty look, or a judgmental attitude from an usher. I agree that this is a matter of projecting one’s own thoughts.

As for increasing collections, a well-planned and executed Stewardship program can do wonders for the collection and involvment of the people in parish life. Our collections nearly doubled after one was implemented, and many new ministries were added, so that now we are more able to reach out to the poor and underserved in our community, as well as pay our bills and eliminate our debt (which we will do this year). We never hear about money from the pulpit except during the annual Stewardship drive or the Bishop’s Appeal, and if one does not meet their pledge no one comes after them. It is amazing how this can work.

 

[ethelzguy]

Let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing…

 

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

Actually, come to think of it, this is the Offertory to God and not just the “collection time”. This is our time to offer not just money, bread, and wine, but our minds and hearts to God. And perhaps there are some who are placing money in the basket while thinking about other things while there are others who can’t give money (or have already given it in another way or at a different time) who are totally centered on God in song, prayer, and thoughts. You never know. You can’t go wrong with making it all about God, though. Then maybe the embarrassment wouldn’t happen and watching what others are doing wouldn’t happen either.

 

[aninquiringmind]

I’m constantly broke. I’m raising 3 kids by myself and am usually behind on one or more of the ‘survival expences’. When I do have money, I try to put a big chunk of it in. So what is my offering? I’m there, every week with my kids, no matter what. I try to raise them withing the teachings of the church; and I do my best to live up to those teachings myself. I sing. I use the gift of my voice that God gave me, to give back to Him and to His people; and I try to put my heart and energy into it (even when I’m insecure or don’t feel well). My view from the choir loft has changed my experience of the Mass. I don’t feel as connected to the congregation and the altar seems so far away! I guess that, in itself, is another sacrifice that I now offer!

Just a few thoughts from someone who regularly has to pass the basket without being able to add to it!!

God Bless

 

[bpbasilphx]

However, having to “pay” for the sacrament of the Eucharist, isn’t that a little like going back to paying for “indulgences”.

Even worse–the buying and selling of holy things is the sin of simony.

 

[Sir_Knight]

It’s not fair to judge. I know families who never put anything in the collection plate but are very involved, offering both time and talent. The time they put in is worth more than the money they can ill afford.

Time, talent, and treasure…Some people volunteer an awful lot of their time at their parishes…Some share great** talents**…Others can afford to share treasure.

We are not to judge. We DON’T know! Frankly, it is none of our business!

Excellent points! Over Christmas and New Year’s my wife had the opportunity to volunteer at the parish office where they were tallying up the contributions that each family made during the year for income tax purposes.

I don’t know the specifics because I wasn’t there but one family didn’t contribute even one red cent to the church but according to the pastor what they contributed to the parish in terms of their time and talent would have cost the parish in excess of $10,000 if he had to pay someone to have it done based on estimates that he had received.

The person that you look down upon for going to Communion while not putting anything in the collection basket may in reality be giving numerous times more to the parish than those who do put something in.

 

[Phemie]

Exactly, sometimes families give ‘in-kind’. One family I’m aware of spends at least double their annual monetary donation to put flowers in the church each week & also pay for all the altar linen cleaning. Their recent donation of a complete set of altar linens and a beautiful altar cloth also cost more than their annual monetary donation.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

That’s not the way it is in our diocese. Each parish is responsible for its pastor’s stipend, whether he’s diocesan or religious. The diocesan guys pay income tax and clear a little more than the religious ones whose Congregation has a contract with the diocese for a specific stipend + 2 trips a year back to their Province’s Headquarters. Those are usually paid for by the parishes.

Yes, some parishes find it harder than others and some of the priests eat better than others.

Oh my goodness! Religious don’t pay taxes in the US!!! Anybody work for a church organization does not even participate in a 401(k), but in a 403(b)!

Isn’t it okay to take the money you get on payday, distribute it to various funds for things(food, transportation, clothing, bills), then decide how much you think you can give, add 10% of what you thought you could, and then give it once or twice a month based on paycheck? It seems weird to give several times during one pay period…why not just take it out at the beginning when you get paid…? It is entirely up to you. There are different ways to do it. The thing not to do: Give it grudgingly.

That is what I would do(or something similar) if I had a job. Too bad I’m a high school student who is sadly unemployed. I give what I can, which is usually once a month giving. Even if I made more money, I’d give it all at once rather than space it out during the month so I could feel good about putting something in the plate each time… My younger girls, ages 9 and 7, get paid on a consistent basis for school work and chores. They are being taught todivide their money into giving/ saving/ spending. The older one currently gives 15% of her “income” to the parish. She gets paid once a month, so that’s when she gives it.

Here is an idea. How about doing a survey to find out what your fellow parishioners ideas are about giving? What are the barriers? Joblessness? How many are living on a limited income? Maybe there are ministries your parish can start - or energize - in order to help people meet their needs so that those who can’t give money will be able to. How about a ministry to help people find jobs. Someone in the parish community may be good with that. Maybe a ministry to help people budget and manage money. Yes, and people who like to complain about others should be the first to volunteer.

Maybe attitudes towards giving need to be changed. How about a lecture series about tithing? And from a Catholic perspective, and not “Fork over 10%” bully tactics! How about setting financial goals for your parish and showing parishioners how the collection is helping to meet those goals? Or even just a mention of “This is what we do with our money as a parish.” Maybe have a collection campaign and have a giant graft in the vestible that shows the progress. I’m just throwing out some ideas because I think actually finding a solution to what is seen as a problem is better than wondering why people don’t give, imagining dirty looks, and judging others without even knowing what their story is. If your parish has a problem with people giving, then it needs to be solved at a pro-active parish community level. Those are my thoughts.

As for dirty looks when you walk down the aisle with the basket, you may be projecting what your own thoughts are, but if there are really dirty looks and malise then your parish community needs to be awakened on this issue.I have taken up the collection, and I have not experienced this. Maybe it is because I am a woman, but it hasn’t happened. People look apologetic or embarrassed, but not crabby.

 

[Phemie]

Oh my goodness! Religious don’t pay taxes in the US!!! Anybody work for a church organization does not even participate in a 401(k), but in a 403(b)!

In Canada, the religious priests don’t pay income tax because they take a vow of poverty and supposedly turn all their money in to their order/congregation. But diocesan priests take no such vow and are considered employees for tax purposes. They are responsible for their own retirement although some may get help with that from their diocese.

Do you mean that in the US I, the lowly parish secretary, would be treated differently from the lawyer’s secretary when it came to taxes & retirement plans???

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

In Canada, the religious priests don’t pay income tax because they take a vow of poverty and supposedly turn all their money in to their order/congregation. But diocesan priests take no such vow and are considered employees for tax purposes. They are responsible for their own retirement although some may get help with that from their diocese.

Do you mean that in the US I, the lowly parish secretary, would be treated differently from the lawyer’s secretary when it came to taxes & retirement plans???

Yes.

And the faculty in the parish school, and the janitor and maintenance people, and the bookeeper…

You would still have federal taxes removed from your salary. However, your retirement funds would be allocated into a 403(b) instead of a 401(k).

The diocese issues the stipend for diocesan priests- at least in our diocese- because it also acts at the payroll supervisor, and at times, tax preparer.
usccb.org/bishops/dfi/dualtax.htm

irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4361.pdf

 

[Phemie]

Yes.

And the faculty in the parish school, and the janitor and maintenance people, and the bookeeper…

You would still have federal taxes removed from your salary. However, your retirement funds would be allocated into a 403(b) instead of a 401(k).

The diocese issues the stipend for diocesan priests- at least in our diocese- because it also acts at the payroll supervisor, and at times, tax preparer.
usccb.org/bishops/dfi/dualtax.htm

irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4361.pdf

Your 403(b) works pretty much like our Registered Retirement Savings Plan, as far as not paying tax on what we put into one and being taxed only when we start withdrawing (when presumably the income will be much less so tax will be much less). The difference is that in Canada anyone can have an RRSP.

 

[SwizzleStick]

My hubby and I used to write a check every week, but for the sake of making things easier and paying for fewer checks, we stopped doing that a few years ago. We now write one big check once a month. We count the number of Sundays in the month and multiply by the amount we used to give weekly for one large sum. We do give for special collections sometimes too, but write just that one check to cover our weekly offerings.

 

[Pug]

Receiving communion after not putting in anything in the collection plate.

I know of no doctrine of the Church stating that it is a mortal sin to fail to place a bill or check physically in the collection plate on any given week. The existence of such a teaching would be news to me. If you are in a state of grace and have kept the fast, etc., then there is not generally a problem with going up for communion.

Myself, if I don’t have something to put in the basket, I don’t smile at the usher, lest I attract him to put the basket under my nose and sit there. I do make motions to attract him when I do have something to put in the basket, so he doesn’t skip me. Please don’t think I frown at the usher, though. I just look ahead and sing the offertory song. What I mean is that I simply don’t engage in, oh, whatever you would call that, an exchange that would summon him with the basket, causing confusion.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Your 403(b) works pretty much like our Registered Retirement Savings Plan, as far as not paying tax on what we put into one and being taxed only when we start withdrawing (when presumably the income will be much less so tax will be much less). The difference is that in Canada anyone can have an RRSP.

The 401(k) is tax sheltered, as are certain types of savings accounts known as IRAs. Then there are KEOGH accounts, and HSAs for health insurance…there’s a lot of variety here, and a lot of strange plays on the tax law.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, everyone. Take any side discussions to new or existing threads in the appropriate fora. Thank you all.

 

[lak611]

Some people may not put anything in the collection plate because they are not members of the parish they are attending Mass at that day. They may support their own parish generously. If they are visiting another parish, they may not give to the parish they are guests at. If I go to Mass at a parish besides my own, I will put something in, but it is usually only a dollar. I will make up my normal weekly donation to my own parish when I go to Mass the next time.

 

[DL82]

The point, I guess, is that if we deliberately and knowingly break the 5th commandment of the church, if we know we can afford to contribute to the church and don’t at all, either in the collection plate or by banking order, or by giving our spare time, or anything at all, then we are committing a mortal sin, same as if we miss Sunday mass, and shouldn’t receive communion until we’ve made a good confession.

That doesn’t mean we should be looking at what other people are putting in the offertory and judging them!

 

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

The point, I guess, is that if we deliberately and knowingly break the 5th commandment of the church, if we know we can afford to contribute to the church and don’t at all, either in the collection plate or by banking order, or by giving our spare time, or anything at all, then we are committing a mortal sin, same as if we miss Sunday mass, and shouldn’t receive communion until we’ve made a good confession.

That doesn’t mean we should be looking at what other people are putting in the offertory and judging them!

I don’t want to sound dumb, but I’m a cradle Catholic and I didn’t think the Church had “commandments”. I’m actually a little shocked by this. Is this something different than the actual 10 commandments? If it is not, can someone tell me which one of the 10 commandments this would correspond to?

I alway look to the parable of Jesus about the widow’s mite as an example of giving. Also, the parable about what each man does with the treasure his master gives him.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I don’t want to sound dumb, but I’m a cradle Catholic and I didn’t think the Church had “commandments”. I’m actually a little shocked by this. Is this something different than the actual 10 commandments? If it is not, can someone tell me which one of the 10 commandments this would correspond to?

I alway look to the parable of Jesus about the widow’s mite as an example of giving. Also, the parable about what each man does with the treasure his master gives him.

Actually, CAROLOFTHEBELLS, I think the poster who referred to the fifth comandment meant “precept” rather than “commandment.” The fifth precept of the Church is: “You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church.” The fifth precept means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.