How do you know that the saints can hear you?

[YADA]

Since the writer of the Scripture, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, didn’t tell us who these 24 elders were, how do you know they’re the 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles? While I’m at it, where’s Mary? Isn’t she offering up prayers as well? If 12 of these are apostles, which ones? Was Paul one of the 12 elders? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas)? And again, how do you know?

The comment about UPS was to show that these elders also had harps, but we’re not told where they got these. It seems clear to me that the harps and golden bowls were given to them by God to be offered and used at the appropriate time.

It only doesn’t negate the point when you IGNORE CONTEXT!!! Never mind that it’s a parable, there’s still the fact that the people know BECAUSE Jesus told them. This Scripture does NOT prove that those in Heaven can hear our prayers and it is not explicit!

In addition to the passages of Revelations - we have Lazarus and the Rich Man … there we have those in heaven communicating with those who are damned … and the one damned asking for intercession from those that were saved - Lazarus and Abraham … We have the three apostles seeing, recognizing and listening to Jesus meeting with Moses and Elijah and during the Crucifixion and death of of Jesus - the tombs opening and people seeing and recognizing those souls - who must have been in the process of being saved or damned - on their way somewhere …

And our Lord is the Lord of the living - not the dead …

Its funny how non-Catholics want to say Catholics don’t place enough emphasis on Jesus like they do - that we don;t use/read/understand the Scriptures …while they limit God to what mortal man can understand and negate the wonders He has done for us; given to us - like the Church, the Communion of Saints and the Eucharist … and they ignore the scripture passages that illustrate mysteries we cannot fully comprehend but are plainly written [baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - comes to mind] while adding to scriptures things like all you need to do is to “accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior” - which is not found in the Scriptures …

 

[Cachonga]

Robyn p:

I fail to see the significance of this. Why would not experiencing sorrow prevent the saints from praying and interceding for us? Why would praying for us mean they have sorrow? Hebrews 7:25 tells us that at least Jesus is in Heaven interceding for us. That doesn’t make Him lose the happiness of heaven. Why would it not be the same for the saints?

Do they pray for everyone that asks? Does God know will end up in Hell? Would God allow anyone in Heaven to intercede for someone He knows will end up in Hell? If so, wouldn’t that cause sorrows for the one interceding? Again, if you read the Scriptures in context, Jesus intercedes for His people, not every person that ever lived. If Jesus interceded for people in Hell, then what good is His intercession? And if He can’t keep someone out of Hell, what chance would Mary or any of the other saints have?

Being asleep in Christ is not meant to say anything about the state of the soul, it doesn’t imply that the soul is unconscious. It’s meant to emphasize the temporary nature of death. The dead will rise again.

It certainly implies to me that the soul cannot be contacted by those still living in the flesh.

If it’s true that when we die, we are unconscious, how is it then that Jesus, after he died but before He rose, went and “preached to the spirits in prison” as Peter tell us in 1 Peter 3:19? You can’t preach anything to a sleeping person. They can’t hear you. How loud did Jesus have to yell to wake them up

I certainly don’t take the “unconscious” viewpoint. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison in the same way Abraham spoke to the rich man. Remember, they were both dead (from our perspective).

If anyone is in Heaven, they are saints. Nothing unclean can be in heaven as Rev 21:27 tells us. And no, it’s not important to know specifically which saints they are. The point of John’s vision is not to give us the attendance sheet of Heaven, but to show us the worship of Heaven. He doesn’t tell us the names of the angels either, yet that doesn’t mean they’re not really in heaven or that they are unimportant to our lives

Is this the “official” teaching of the Church, or just your opinion? I agree that all those human souls in Heaven are Saints. I further believe that all true believers are Saints, whether living or dead (“asleep” if you prefer).

<continued …>

 

[Cachonga]

<…continued>

Where else are the prayers coming from? The point is they are bringing prayers from other people to the throne of God. That’s intercession. The harps are obviously symbolic. As are the incense and the bowls and the crowns and even the throne of God and the Lamb. Revelation is full of symbolic imagery to convey spiritual realities. I don’t quite see what your point is making that joke. It’s not like anyone here actually believes there are physical harps in heaven.

The prayers went directly to God, who saved them in the Golden Bowls to be offered at the appropriate time. God gave the bowls, harps and crowns to the Elders (who else would give an Elder a harp or a crown). Again, does the Church teach there are no actual harps in Heaven, or is that just your opinion? What about the crowns? Are they real or not? Seems to me there are other places in Scripture that tells us we’ll be given crowns (nice to know I don’t have to stop at Burger King on the way to Heaven – Oh No! Another joke!) Even if the harps aren’t real (and I find no reason to believe they aren’t), God certainly gave the crowns. Seems more than reasonable to believe that He also gave them the golden bowls (of course, that is just my opinion – based on the reading of Scripture).

So you’re saying, Jesus makes known through His divine power to the saints in Heaven what is going on earth? What’s to say He doesn’t do that when we pray to saints? Maybe He gives them the knowledge of what we need?

That’s not what I said. What I said is that the Saints in Heaven know to rejoice over the salvation of a sinner because Jesus tells them it happened. As far as God telling the Saints what we pray for, again I ask – would that include prayers from someone God knew would end up in Hell?

You might respond that then what’s the point? But remember, Jesus already told us our Father knows what we need before we ask it. Yet He wants us to pray for ourselves and for others anyway. Why? Because He wants us to be involved in each other’s lives. He wants to use us as His instruments, as His fellow workers.

And where does He say that includes asking those who are asleep in Christ to pray for them?

We are told that we can’t say to any member of the Body of Christ, “I have no need of you” (1 Cor 12:21) We need ALL the Body of Christ, we are intimately connected to each other through Christ. That includes the Saints. There’s only one body of Christ. Not one on earth and one in heaven.

I have never said we don’t need the Saints in Heaven. I believe they are doing very important work. I find no reason to think that they don’t pray for believers on Earth in the same way we would pray for unknown Christian brothers in other lands (especially in places where they are being persecuted).

Yes, you’re right, ultimately the authority of the Church is why I accept this doctrine. But there are things you accept in this way as well. There’s only very weak “indications” about the Trinity in Scripture. Sure, sometimes Jesus makes claim that only make sense if He were God, but other times He says things like, “Why do you call me good, no one is good but God alone” which look pretty much like a denial of divinity. Can you honestly say from just reading Scripture alone, without any preconceived tradition, that you would believe in the Trinity? Or perhaps do you believe it because the Church taught you that?

I have shown in a previous thread why I believe in the Trinity from Scripture alone. Since that is not the topic of this thread, I see no reason to go over those Scriptures again. Furthermore, I am highly offended that you would compare the clear Scriptural teaching of the Trinity with the non Scriptural teaching of praying to Saints and angels!

Furthermore, there is not a shred of evidence in the Bible that shows that 3rd John is the inspired word of God. Zip. It doesn’t even mention the name of Jesus. But if you believe it is part of the New Testament, then ultimately what it comes down to is you accept it as such because the Church says so

Since the canon of Scripture is not the topic, I see no need to comment on this non sequitur either

 

[Cachonga]

JerryZ:

Uhmm The book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John and the Virgin Mary is right there in Chapter 12:1

And yet even the ECF’s didn’t identify the woman as Mary. Could you please give me the earliest documentation that identifies the woman of Rev 12:1 as Mary?

She is the mother of the King. There is no greater position for a human to have. Remember that.

She is also a member of the Body of Christ, not apart from it!

As for the Elders before the Throne of God, you need to remember all the Patriarchs of our Faith. Abraham, Jacob and his 12 sons, Moses and all the Prophets that came teaching us about God. They are all in Heaven serving God.
There is no shortage of “Elders”

And yet the Scriptures clearly state there are 24, and it has been asserted that these are the 12 patriarchs (I would think that would be the 12 sons of Jacob), and the 12 Apostles (but which ones, specifically, we don’t know).

 

[Cachonga]

YADA:

In addition to the passages of Revelations - we have Lazarus and the Rich Man … there we have those in heaven communicating with those who are damned … and the one damned asking for intercession from those that were saved - Lazarus and Abraham … We have the three apostles seeing, recognizing and listening to Jesus meeting with Moses and Elijah and during the Crucifixion and death of of Jesus - the tombs opening and people seeing and recognizing those souls - who must have been in the process of being saved or damned - on their way somewhere …

I believe I already pointed out that Abraham and the rich man were already dead! I fail to see how that means we on Earth can pray to (and be heard by) saints in Heaven. The Mount of Transfiguration involved Jesus (God) and Moses and Elijah, who came to Him. Nobody “Prayed” to Moses or Elijah, and because God was directly involved, I still fail to see your point. After the crucifixion, the tombs broke open and Saints were resurrected and entered into the city where they were recognized. You have no convincing argument!

And our Lord is the Lord of the living - not the dead …

True, but you still can’t communicate any better with a Saint in Heaven than you can with an unknown Saint in outer Mongolia. The point here is that Saints in Heaven are in a different PLACE!

Its funny how non-Catholics want to say Catholics don’t place enough emphasis on Jesus like they do - that we don;t use/read/understand the Scriptures …while they limit God to what mortal man can understand and negate the wonders He has done for us; given to us - like the Church, the Communion of Saints and the Eucharist … and they ignore the scripture passages that illustrate mysteries we cannot fully comprehend but are plainly written [baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - comes to mind] while adding to scriptures things like all you need to do is to “accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior” - which is not found in the Scriptures …

It’s funny that I still need to give a testimony from time to time. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I began my education in a private Catholic School. I have received 6 of the 7 Sacraments. I married a widow with 3 children (the youngest was 10). They had been baptized, but nothing more. During our 3 month engagement, I trained them so that they received their first communion the same day we were married. What happened? I became convinced that Sola Scriptura was correct. You talk about “adding to Scripture”, yet you don’t think twice about reading things into Scripture that aren’t there, simply because your Church tells you it’s there. I would say that Catholics don’t really believe the Bible. Catholics really believe what the Church tells them to believe about the Bible! This has strayed off topic, but hopefully it will be useful to someone!

 

[JerryZ]

And yet even the ECF’s didn’t identify the woman as Mary. Could you please give me the earliest documentation that identifies the woman of Rev 12:1 as Mary?
**
She is also a member of the Body of Christ, not apart from it!**

And yet the Scriptures clearly state there are 24, and it has been asserted that these are the 12 patriarchs (I would think that would be the 12 sons of Jacob), and the 12 Apostles (but which ones, specifically, we don’t know).

Who is setting Mary apart?

Not the Catholic Church for sure. Even here on Earth we have ranks amongst us, some deserve greater honour that others.
And while we give adoration only to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) we give Honour to our Saints. The first amongst whom is Mary the mother of God.

I certainly give her more honour that to a sports atlete or singer or actor whom many idolize far more than our Lord’s mother.

What difference does it make who the elders are, it is obvious they are faithfull servants of the will of God and their reward is to be closer to Him, their names are not important. Remember Jesus words. The least will be the greatest.
It is far more important that we do have a great cloud of witnesses and guess what it is getting bigger.

Why don’t you read the Church’s fathers.
Also why don’t you check out “our Lady of Guadalupe” see her miracolous image.

–

 

[YADA]

I believe I already pointed out that Abraham and the rich man were already dead! I fail to see how that means we on Earth can pray to (and be heard by) saints in Heaven. The Mount of Transfiguration involved Jesus (God) and Moses and Elijah, who came to Him. Nobody “Prayed” to Moses or Elijah, and because God was directly involved, I still fail to see your point. After the crucifixion, the tombs broke open and Saints were resurrected and entered into the city where they were recognized. You have no convincing argument!

True, but you still can’t communicate any better with a Saint in Heaven than you can with an unknown Saint in outer Mongolia. The point here is that Saints in Heaven are in a different PLACE!

It’s funny that I still need to give a testimony from time to time. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I began my education in a private Catholic School. I have received 6 of the 7 Sacraments. I married a widow with 3 children (the youngest was 10). They had been baptized, but nothing more. During our 3 month engagement, I trained them so that they received their first communion the same day we were married. What happened? I became convinced that Sola Scriptura was correct. You talk about “adding to Scripture”, yet you don’t think twice about reading things into Scripture that aren’t there, simply because your Church tells you it’s there. I would say that Catholics don’t really believe the Bible. Catholics really believe what the Church tells them to believe about the Bible! This has strayed off topic, but hopefully it will be useful to someone!

Your arguments lack substance - sorry … the scriptures tell us to pray for each other - they don’t say to only do this until earthly death …

And historically - as smart as you are - you should know that the Church predates the “New Testament” scriptures and Jesus never commanded any writings … Jesus founded a Church and entrusted that Church to His followers through “offices” He himself instituted … - a Church that He promised to protect … and Jesus Himself gave us the Eucharist - His Body and Blood for our spiritual sustenance …

Too bad you decided to become your own Pope and follow your own teachings … oh … and while you were throwing away your faith - I was traveling the other direction … coming into the fullness of truth … and I have a masters degree in theology …

 

[zz912]

**The prayers went directly to God, who saved them in the Golden Bowls to be offered at the appropriate time. **God gave the bowls, harps and crowns to the Elders (who else would give an Elder a harp or a crown). Again, does the Church teach there are no actual harps in Heaven, or is that just your opinion? What about the crowns? Are they real or not? Seems to me there are other places in Scripture that tells us we’ll be given crowns (nice to know I don’t have to stop at Burger King on the way to Heaven – Oh No! Another joke!) Even if the harps aren’t real (and I find no reason to believe they aren’t), God certainly gave the crowns. Seems more than reasonable to believe that He also gave them the golden bowls (of course, that is just my opinion – based on the reading of Scripture).

Could you cite chapter and verse for your claim here that the prayers went directly to God? It seems you are laying out your personal, fallible, error-prone interpretation as if it is part of Scripture. In fact Scripture says that the saints and angels are presenting the prayers to God. You don’t present something to someone who already has received it. That simply makes no sense.

And please explain how the harps/bowls and their literalness or symbolic-ness pertains to our discussion? In either case, yes, God gave them to the saints/angels. God has given us EVERYTHING. What does that matter to our discussion of the saints bringing our prayers to Him?

 

[Aloysium]

An appropriate topic with All Saints Day and All Souls Day around the corner.
Actually, I don’t know how I know. It just seems to be the case; it feels right.
What evidence does anyone have that they don’t.
Deep in prayer, aren’t we in loving communion with God and all humanity?
Where people are not connected is hell.

 

[Todd977]

I have studied the issue of prayer to saints quite a bit and I mostly understand it. My only question is, how do we know the saints can hear us? Is that in the Bible, and where?

God bless you,
Grace

If the saints in heaven cannot hear us, it would be pointless to address them. However, there are examples in Sacred Scripture (below) of the saints in heaven being addressed by earthlings, especially if you include angels in your definition of saints in heaven. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the saints in heaven can hear us.

Inspired examples of the saints in heaven being prayerfully addressed include the following:

Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exault him above all forever. (Daniel 3:58)

Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:86)

Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will! (Psalm 103:21-22)

Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host! (Psalm 148:2)

Note: Daniel 3:58 and 3:86 are so-called ‘deuterocanonical’ verses, among those verses found in the Greek Septuagint and Catholic Bibles but not typically found in the Hebrew Scriptures and Protestant Bibles.

 

[bmonk]

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.

There may be no need to pray to the saints. The Church does not require it.

However, just as we ask those we know and respect to pray for us when we need it, so we also turn to the Saints for prayers.

We believe in the “Communion of the saints,” as mentioned in the Creed used at baptism. That is, the Body of Christ is one and living–even though divided (at this time) into those living here in this world, those who have died and are awaiting their entrance into glory, and those who have reached heaven. We are one Body of Christ.

As mentioned, the Bible does describe the saints in Heaven praying for those on Earth–in Revelation 5. We also have the opposite–in 2 Macc 12:38-46, Judas has prayers offered for the dead, “in light of the resurrection” to expiate for their sins. Yes, this is in the “deuterocanonical” books–but we believe them inspired.

As for what texts are inspired or not, how would we know? God did not hand us a bible from heaven, nor did Jesus give us a list of what texts would (eventually) be included. It is only by the authority of the Church that we can know what should be included.

Given that, it is also by the authority of the Church that we know how to interpret what is there, and what might be remembers outside of the Bible. Including such ideas as the Communion of the Saints, and even the Trinity itself.

 

[bmonk]

If anyone is in Heaven, they are saints. Nothing unclean can be in heaven as Rev 21:27 tells us. And no, it’s not important to know specifically which saints they are. The point of John’s vision is not to give us the attendance sheet of Heaven, but to show us the worship of Heaven. He doesn’t tell us the names of the angels either, yet that doesn’t mean they’re not really in heaven or that they are unimportant to our lives.

Where else are the prayers coming from? The point is they are bringing prayers from other people to the throne of God. That’s intercession. The harps are obviously symbolic. As are the incense and the bowls and the crowns and even the throne of God and the Lamb. Revelation is full of symbolic imagery to convey spiritual realities. I don’t quite see what your point is making that joke. It’s not like anyone here actually believes there are physical harps in heaven.

You might respond that then what’s the point? But remember, Jesus already told us our Father knows what we need before we ask it. Yet He wants us to pray for ourselves and for others anyway. Why? Because He wants us to be involved in each other’s lives. He wants to use us as His instruments, as His fellow workers. We are told that we can’t say to any member of the Body of Christ, “I have no need of you” (1 Cor 12:21) We need ALL the Body of Christ, we are intimately connected to each other through Christ. That includes the Saints. There’s only one body of Christ. Not one on earth and one in heaven.

These are good points.

I smiled too when I read about UPS delivering harps to heaven. Perhaps there are harps there, perhaps not. Perhaps these are symbolic images, perhaps they will be literally true. After all, God is the center and soul of heaven, and can do as He wishes. If he wishes us to have harps, he can provide them.

Remember that, the one thing we know for sure about heaven is that we know nothing about it, except that God will be there, and it will be better than anything we can imagine.

 

[pablope]

Apparently, God’s promise that there would be no sorrow in Heaven doesn’t apply to Catholic Saints (I se

The best Biblical support the Catholic Church can offer to support this teaching are very weak “indications”. What it ultimately comes down to is - this is an acceptable practice because the Church says so!

And has Jewish roots:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.
Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)
Peter Brown:
On this point, the rise of Christianity in the pagan world was met by deep religious anger. We can chart the rise to prominence of the Christian church most faithfully by listening to pagan reactions to the cult of martyrs. For the progress of this cult spelled out for the pagans a slow and horrid crumbling of ancient barriers.1

What it ultimately comes down to is - this is an acceptable practice because the Church says s

And you Church says it is not an acceptable practice…so who is right…your church or the CC?

 

[pablope]

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).

The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.

Actually…not true…there is a basis for this:

Job 42:

7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

 

[johnnyc176]

asianews.it/news-en/Pope%3A-the-communion-of-saints,-an-unbreakable-bond-between-us-and-those-who-are-in-Purgatory-or-in-Heaven-29414.html

Pope: the communion of saints, an unbreakable bond between us and those who are in Purgatory or in Heaven

Vatican City ( AsiaNews) - There is " a deep and indissoluble bond between those who are still pilgrims in this world",“the souls in purgatory and those who are already in Heaven .” A “shared union” that should propel us to seek God’s help and that of our brothers in times of “insecurity, loss and even doubts on our journey of faith”, which “we have all experienced”, even the Pope, “none of this should surprise us because we are human beings, we are fragile, we have limits, all we have”.

The meaning of the “communion of saints”, a "very beautiful reality of our faith " was illustrated today by Pope St. Francis to 80 thousand people present in St Peter’s Square for the general audience. As usual the Pope toured among the throng for almost half an hour in his white jeep, from which he alighted several times to greet people, especially an enthusiastic group of dozens of altar boys from Paris, for one of whom he signed a cap. And while the jeep was stationary, a child of 4 or 5 years climbed up next to Francis, who spoke to him for a few moments in a low voice. And once more today, a loyal group of Argentines brought a bottle of “mate” which the Pope drank through a straw.

At the end of the general audience the Pope announced his pending meeting with a delegation of Iraqi authorities and representatives of the various religious groups, “who are the wealth of the country”. In his catechesis instead he pointed out that with the “communion of saints” the Catechism refers to two realities: communion with holy things and communion with holy people. This second meaning is “one of the most comforting truths of our faith, because it reminds us that we are not alone, that there is a communion of life between all those who belong to Christ. A communion that is born of faith, in fact, the term saints refers to those who believe in the Lord Jesus and are incorporated in Christ through Baptism in the Church”.

“The Church, in its deepest truth is in communion with God, intimacy with God, a communion of love with Christ and with the Father in the Holy Spirit , which continues in a fraternal communion. This relationship between Jesus and the Father is the” matrix "of the bond between us Christians: if we are intimately included in this “matrix” in this ardent furnace of love that is the Trinity, then we can become truly one heart and one soul among us, because the love of God burns our selfishness , our prejudices, our internal and external divisions . God’s love burns even our sins. "

“If we are rooted in the source of Love, which is God, then there is also a reciprocal movement : from my brothers to God, the experience of fraternal communion with God leads us to be united among ourselves, it leads us to be united with God, in this connection with God who is our Father . Our faith needs the support of others, especially in difficult times. And if we are united, the faith is strong. How beautiful it is to support one another in this wonderful adventure of faith! I say this because the tendency to retreat into the private has also influenced the religious sphere, so that it is often hard to ask for the spiritual help of those who share the Christian experience with us. Who among us - everybody, everybody! - who among us has not experienced insecurity, loss and even doubts on their journey of faith ? Everyone! We’ve all experienced this, me too. Everyone. It is part of the journey of faith, it is part of our lives. This should not surprise us, because we are human beings, marked by fragility and limitations. We are all weak, we all have limits: do not panic . We all we have them”.

"However, - continued the Pope - in these difficult times it is necessary to trust in God , through prayer, and at the same time, it is important to find the courage and the humility to be open to others and ask for help, to ask for a hand : ‘Give me a hand , I have this problem.’ How many times have we done this? And then, we overcame the problem and found God again. In this communion - communion which means ’ common union ', all united , common union - in this communion we are a big family, all of us, where all the components help and support each other . "

The communion of the saints, then, “goes beyond the earthly life, goes beyond death and lasts forever. This union between us goes beyond and continues in the afterlife. It is a spiritual union that comes from Baptism, that is not broken by death, but, thanks to that Christ who is risen, is destined to find its fulfillment in eternal life. There is a deep and indissoluble bond between those who are still pilgrims in this world, among us, and those who have crossed the threshold of death into eternity. All the baptized here on earth, the souls in Purgatory and all the saints who are already in heaven form one big family . This communion between earth and heaven is realized especially in the prayer of intercession”.

"This beauty, the memory of the faith: it is our reality, that makes us brothers, that accompanies us on the journey of life , and we will meet again up there in Heaven . Let’s make this journey with confidence, joy. A Christian must be joyful, with the joy of having so many baptized brothers and sisters who walk with us, and even with the help of our brothers and sisters on this journey towards Heaven, and also with the help of brothers and sisters who are in Heaven and Jesus who pray for us. Move forward on this road , and with joy . "

 

[Robyn_p]

Do they pray for everyone that asks? Does God know will end up in Hell? Would God allow anyone in Heaven to intercede for someone He knows will end up in Hell? If so, wouldn’t that cause sorrows for the one interceding? Again, if you read the Scriptures in context, **Jesus intercedes for His people, not every person that ever lived. If Jesus interceded for people in Hell, then what good is His intercession? **And if He can’t keep someone out of Hell, what chance would Mary or any of the other saints have?

The implication of this is that Jesus didn’t come and die to save all men, because many still go to hell, so what good was His mission? Further, He must not be the mediator of the entire human race, because the entire human race will not go to heaven. (a mediator and an intercessor are the same thing by the way)

If that’s the case, I have to disagree, and so does the Bible. Paul tells us that intercessions and prayers are to be made on behalf off all men, not just Christians. (1 Tim 2:1) and that God desires ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:4) and first John 2:2 tells us that Christ is the expiation, not only of our sins (that would be, Christians, since that is who John is writing to) but “the sins of the whole world.”. So yes my friend, Jesus is the mediator of the entire human race, that includes those who end up rejecting His gift of salvation.

I have to point out though, Cachonga, that this same logic that you are using to reject the intercession of the saints (and now Christ’s intercession and mediation for the entire human race) is the same one used by those who deny the very existence of heaven and hell. :sad_yes: How can I be happy in heaven if I have a relative or spouse in hell?

One thing that can help solve this dilemma is to realize that those in hell are there from their own choice, they freely rejected God’s grace. But God does give every human person sufficient grace to get to heaven. But He already knows who’s going to reject Him and who’s going to choose him? So how is that free? This is a deep mystery of God’s omniscience and free will. We still don’t know all the details, but we can get some lights.

We know that God does desire the salvation of all, which means He must give the means of salvation to all. Whether a person accepts it or rejects it is up to their free will. God knowing from all eternity however, who ultimately accepts His grace and who rejects it, doesn’t change either of these truths. Knowing isn’t the same thing as causing.

God also uses our prayers and our witnessing as means to communicate His grace. We become “God’s fellow workers” as Paul describes. I see no reason to think He wouldn’t use the prayers of the saints in heaven as much as ours. Just because He may know a certain soul will turn down the grace doesn’t mean He won’t offer it.

But now, to answer your objection about sadness, in short, no, it won’t cause the saints sadness to know that a person is in hell despite their prayers, anymore than it causes God sadness to know a person is in hell despite Him giving them all they need to turn to Him, and here’s why: hell ultimately is God’s justice, and justice is a good thing. A person who rejects God and all the gifts He bestowed will get what they want, existence without God. This is just.

The saints in heaven see with God’s eyes, they have the beatific vision, they are like Him, because they see Him as He is. People going to Hell won’t cause them sorrow because it is a triumph of justice, of goodness over evil. They love the people in Hell, but the people in Hell want nothing to do with them. It’s not the saints fault that those people chose this fate.

But they still intercede for all men, because that is what we are called to do as Christians, and saints in Heaven are perfect Christians. And God will use their prayers as instruments of grace, even for those who He knows will reject Him. God doesn’t ignore anyone, not even those who hate Him, which I feel is what the logical end of your premise comes down to.

I’ll address your other points in another post. Out of room.

 

[skeyes]

Great answers, RobynP. Thanks

 

[Robyn_p]

Cachonga:

The prayers went directly to God, who saved them in the Golden Bowls to be offered at the appropriate time.

Yes, I know where they went to, the same place all prayers ultimately go, God. But what is clearly shown is these elders are bringing the prayers to God. That’s intercession. The same way when I ask you to pray for me, and your prayers go to God.

God gave the bowls, harps and crowns to the Elders (who else would give an Elder a harp or a crown). Again, does the Church teach there are no actual harps in Heaven, or is that just your opinion? What about the crowns? Are they real or not? Seems to me there are other places in Scripture that tells us we’ll be given crowns (nice to know I don’t have to stop at Burger King on the way to Heaven – Oh No! Another joke!)

I don’t have an issue with jokes, you should see my family. I thought wrongly that you were using the image of the harps to mock praying to saints, my mistake. The Church doesn’t have a position on whether there are literal harps in heaven. Revelation is full of symbolic imagery, so it’s possible they are symbolic and possible they are not.

Even if the harps aren’t real (and I find no reason to believe they aren’t), God certainly gave the crowns. Seems more than reasonable to believe that He also gave them the golden bowls (of course, that is just my opinion – based on the reading of Scripture).

Yes! I agree completely. :yup: God gave them the golden bowls, whether real or symbolic, which enabled them to bring the prayers of the saints on earth and present them to Him. There’s the answer to the original question, how do they hear us? Because God gives them the means. The saints have no power on their own to hear or answer our prayers, the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that. Because apart from Christ we can do nothing. But through Christ and in Him, they receive the ability to hear our prayers. Because through Christ we can do all things.

Far from disproving the Catholic position, this actually illustrates it.

That’s not what I said. What I said is that the Saints in Heaven know to rejoice over the salvation of a sinner because Jesus tells them it happened. As far as God telling the Saints what we pray for, again I ask – would that include prayers from someone God knew would end up in Hell?

See my previous post.

I have never said we don’t need the Saints in Heaven. I believe they are doing very important work. I find no reason to think that they don’t pray for believers on Earth in the same way we would pray for unknown Christian brothers in other lands (especially in places where they are being persecuted).

Ok cool. So you agree they can pray for us, you just don’t think they can answer and pray for specific requests from us is that correct?

I have shown in a previous thread why I believe in the Trinity from Scripture alone. Since that is not the topic of this thread, I see no reason to go over those Scriptures again. Furthermore, I am highly offended that you would compare the clear Scriptural teaching of the Trinity with the non Scriptural teaching of praying to Saints and angels!

I’m sorry. I had no intention to cause offense. I wasn’t part of that thread, so I apologize.

But just so we’re clear, I wasn’t arguing that the Trinity is unscriptural, not at all. I was simply pointing out that someone who rejects the doctrine of the Trinity can use the same argument, since you have to admit, it’s not exactly clearly spelled out, and it can be confusing at times with the seemingly contradictory passages. I’ve had this argued to me in almost the exact words you used by some JWs in fact, so that’s why I made the analogy

But you are right, we can discuss this another time.

Since the canon of Scripture is not the topic, I see no need to comment on this non sequitur either

Since you said Catholics hold a teaching that has no biblical basis but simply based on the authority of the Church, and therefore implied that this fact proved praying to saints is untrue, I only was pointing out that you too accept doctrines, that we both agree on, in the same way as well. Therefore, my point simply was that this reason alone isn’t a strong reason to reject the doctrine on praying to saints. There may indeed be other valid reasons, but simply having no explicit biblical basis isn’t a strong one, since we would have to reject many things that you and I both agree on if that were the case.

 

[Robyn_p]

Great answers, RobynP. Thanks

Glad you found them helpful.

 

[PJM]

=graciesings;11353028]I have studied the issue of prayer to saints quite a bit and I mostly understand it. My only question is, how do we know the saints can hear us? Is that in the Bible, and where?

God bless you,
Grace

Tobit)2:18 “For we are the children of the saints, and look for that life which God will give to those that never change their faith from him.”

Job 5:1 “Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints”

Psalms 49:5 “Gather ye together his saints to him: who set his covenant before sacrifices.”

Wisdom 5:5 “Behold how they are numbered among the children of God, and their lot is among the saints.”

Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, [THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS]

Revelation 5:8 “And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints”

Revelation 8:4 “And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel”

READ also 2 Mac. Chapter 12

God Bless you!