How do you know which church is truly the church of Jesus Christ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jimmy_B

Guest
**How do you know which church is truly the church of Jesus Christ? **

The answer is the Bible – End of Argument!

Which church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ? There are tens of thousands of different “Christian” religions. They can not all be right. They are all different religions because they have different beliefs.

If you are wondering which religion is the true religion, the answer is easy. It’s the Roman Catholic Church. How do I know this? I have many reasons but one of the most convincing is the formation of the Bible.

Arguing that the Catholic Church is wrong regarding the teachings of Jesus, on issues like Confession, Mass, The Eucharist, Infant Baptism, Mary Dogma and many other issues and using the Bible to do so, is insane. It would be like a security guard at K-Mart arguing with the Chief of the Los Angeles Police Department regarding department policy. It would be like a peace activist, who has never served in the military, trying to explain a UCMJ section to an Army General. Crazy!

How do we know that the document described as the *Declaration of Independence, *of the United States is accurate? How do we know if the history surrounding the creation of the *Declaration of Independence is accurate? None of us were there when it was created. *We know because the organization or “keeper of the document’, the United States Government, said it is.
 
The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. There has been an unbroken chain of Papal secession and leadership. There has also been an unbroken “chain of custody” of written documents, traditions, conversations, discussions, oral statements, research and information passed down and kept by the Catholic Church for over two thousand years. The bones of Saint Peter and other Apostles are buried under Saint Peter’s Basilica.

When it comes to religions, I believe one can apply “The fruit of the poisonous tree” rule to their credibility and authority. If a fruit baring tree is bad or poisonous then we can be sure that the fruit from that tree is also bad. In U.S. Courts, there is a Jury Instruction that’s says, if, as a Juror, you believe a witness was not truthful at any point during His/Her testimony, then you can disregard ALL of His/Her testimony. If you are reciting a Bible, you have to assume the Catholic Church was honest, truthful, and credible and had the authority to organize and pass it down to you.

How do we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are “The Gospels”? We know because the Catholic Church said they were. If the Catholic Church is wrong about any of its practices, then the Catholic Church is wrong in every aspect if it’s teachings, including the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible. Remember “The fruit of the poisonous tree”?
 
If the Catholic Church is wrong regarding absolution and other dogmas and practices then they have been wrong since the very beginning. If you were a Christian for the first 1500 years after Christ’s Crucifixion, you were a Catholic and to would have followed all of the teachings and beliefs of The Roman Catholic Church. The Bible was created somewhere between 300 and 500 AD. The Protestant Movement didn’t start until the 1500’s AD.

How can you trust the Bible you are using to refute the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church gave you the Bible? The practices, traditions and beliefs of the Catholic Church have been consistent for hundreds and hundreds of years, prior to the formation of the Bible you use today to argue against the Roman Catholic Church.

If you are a Non-Catholic Christian, please explain to me, how you can trust the Catholic Church got it right when they decided which documents constituted the “Bible” and got it wrong regarding other practices?

END
 
Because tradition is held up on the same level as the Bible, hence all Catholic teaching is not a direct derivative of the Bible, rather they are seen as complementary. The Catholic church has changed over the years. You don’t move from being a small group meeting in secret to the next best thing to a centralized government during the dark ages and not go under some pretty major changes. And then there is the issue of interpretation, The Catholic church has interpretations and then each other church has theirs. Though not all Catholics agree you pretty much stay together. If N.C. groups disagree we sometimes split, sometimes don’t but there is still unity in the spirit (we don’t go around calling one another damned, we just agree that we have theological differences and go on).

And for the record, most Protestant/Anabaptist universities that I know of have courses on apocryphal scripture as well as writings of the early church fathers. What we disagree on falls under the subject of interpretation. The Catholic church interprets verses one way and my church interprets them another. Do I believe I am 100% correct, not really, but I’m more inclined to follow a church that allows itself to be open to correcting itself rather than one that assumes it’s own infallibility (if anyone has a list of papal infallible statements I would appreciate it, I have been researching the subject and as of yet have been unable to find one).

Personally I have not come to a firm conclusion as to what the ultimate truth is. To be blatantly honest I don’t trust humans. Historically we can look at articles like the Dead Sea Scrolls and other historic documents that have survived and check our scriptures against those documents, oral tradition has a tendency to run away with itself. If we look again at the Bible we see that the Pharisees (keepers of the oral traditions) became very legalistic and often were the brunt of Jesus’ examples of what not to become.

Another thing you alluded to was the fruit of the spirit. You referred to a poisoned tree but I want to bring your attention to the fruits of the spirit, the product of Gods work in our lives. I fully believe that the Catholic church, despite shortcomings existent in any church, produces these fruits. Protestant and Anabaptist churches produce fruit though too. To deny that God is working in any avenue he chooses is kind of limiting and I don’t think we have the right to put limits on God (he tends to make us understand that mistake with a health serving of humility).

In closing, yes we disagree but at the end of the day we get more done by working together despite our differing opinions. If all the world sees when they look at us is bickering when why should they believe? Just because we may not have unity of theology doesn’t mean that we don’t have unity of the spirit. Our nation has just gone through a tragedy and I would love to see ALL churches helping out together, then maybe we can understand how small our differences are in the grand design.
 
This is a trick question…right

I belong to the church that Jesus Christ established whilst on earth, that Peter lead when Jesus ascended into heaven etc etc. That is the Roman Catholic Church!
 
Shlemele

Hello,

Shlemele, thank you for your response. I don’t know if you have actually answered my question. However, I will try and address some of what you have posted here.

**
Shlemele, quote-
“The Catholic church has changed over the years. You don’t move from being a small group meeting in secret to the next best thing to a centralized government during the dark ages and not go under some pretty major changes.”

**
I don’t know what the “pretty major changes” in Catholicism you are alluding to, so I can’t specifically address this issue. I do know the early Church made changes which are documented in the Bible; an example would be the issue of Gentiles and circumcision. I’m also aware of Saint Paul’s many letters where he addressed various issues that came up during his time. Maybe you can enlighten me? What are the changes in the Catholic faith that concern you and are they inconsistent with scripture? I’m not aware of any.

If you don’t believe these changes are scriptrally based, are they inconsistent with the early Church, First Century, when the Apostles and or their disciple were alive? If the changes have to do with Ecumenical Councils, they started in the First Century AD. Ecumenical Councils were important for the formation of the Bible as we know it.

**
Shlemele, quote-
“And then there is the issue of interpretation, The Catholic church has interpretations and then each other church has theirs.”

**
Well, there is part of the problem. What did early Christians (Catholics) have to interpret? The printing press wasn’t created until the 1500”s. Oh no. does that mean oral tradition? Maybe that’s one of the changes you didn’t like. Followers didn’t have their own bible for personal interpretation for the first 1500 years. Maybe we should go back to the time prior to Bibles?

Or maybe the change can be found in Acts / Chapter 5, The story of Ananias and Sapphira. nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/acts/acts5.htm

This was back when early Christians were not only required to attend church (Mass), To be a Christian meant selling your property and all of your possessions and turning all of the money over to the Church. Do you think we should go back to that? That was a change which can be found in the Bible.

**
Shlemele, quote-

“What we disagree on falls under the subject of interpretation. The Catholic Church interprets verses one way and my church interprets them another.”

**
No, what we disagree on falls under the subject of Faith.
"my church"

**
Shlemele, quote –
”Personally I have not come to a firm conclusion as to what the ultimate truth is. To be blatantly honest I don’t trust humans. “
**

Well this could be a problem, Peter, Paul, James and the rest of the Disciples, Apostles and Early Church Fathers were all human.
Jesus (God) didn’t write the Bible, “humans” did.
Thanks again for your response and God Bless. I would like to address some of your issues. However, I would like to hear how you get around the “Bible” issue and history and maybe you can provide some specifics, in greater detail.
 
The Catholic Church is not the only True Church. Protestant Churches who are Trinitarian in belief are also True Churches. Only the cults of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science and others that are not Trinitarian in belief are False Churches.
 
John Mazar:
The Catholic Church is not the only True Church. Protestant Churches who are Trinitarian in belief are also True Churches. Only the cults of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science and others that are not Trinitarian in belief are False Churches.
Click to expand...
John Mazar, What is a Church (leaving out the qualification of true or otherwise)?
 
John Mazar:
The Catholic Church is not the only True Church. Protestant Churches who are Trinitarian in belief are also True Churches. Only the cults of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science and others that are not Trinitarian in belief are False Churches.
Click to expand...
Not exactly…the Catholic Church is definately the True Church and therein contains the Fullness of Truth, whereas other Christian churches contain some truth, (yes, even the Mormons, etc. have some truth.)
 
John Mazar:
The Catholic Church is not the only True Church. Protestant Churches who are Trinitarian in belief are also True Churches. Only the cults of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science and others that are not Trinitarian in belief are False Churches.
Click to expand...
John Mazar

Thank you for your reply.

Are you saying that every “Christian” religion that believes in the Trinity, are part of the “One Church” described in the Nicene Creed and Saint Paul’s letter to the Ephesians.

**
**
Taken from the Nicine Creed
“…I believe **one **holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Matthew 15:13-14

13 He said in reply, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14 Let them alone; they are blind guides (of the blind). If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit.”

Does this include Churches who are Trinitarian, who knowingly promoted Gay Marriages? What about Churches who have knowingly promoted Gay Bishops?

Is Jim Jones, the founder and leader of Jonestown, Guyana included into the “One Church”? What about *Trinitarian *“Christian” religions who have publicly stated that the Pope is the anti-Christ and the Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon”? How about Church’s whose members are required to play with venomous snakes? I can go on.

Your comments seem nice but I don’t know if “Political Correctness” works when defining religious beliefs? I’ve read that there are more than 36,000 different “Christian” religions in the United States alone. They are different because they have different beliefs.

Only one Church can be right and I believe it is the Roman Catholic Church. If other churches were not different and they believed what the Catholic Church believes, they would be Catholic. By the way, “Born Again” churches use a different Ten Commandments. Maybe that isn’t important? Your Thoughts?
 
E.E.N.S.:
Not exactly…the Catholic Church is definately the One True Church and therein contains the Fullness of Truth, whereas other Christian churches contain some truth, (yes, even the Mormons, etc. have some truth.)
Click to expand...
(I added a word, lol.)
 
Sorry that this must be so brief but I have been sick the last few days with a store opening so I need to get some sleep. I just want to throw something out there for clarification;
I don’t know what the “pretty major changes” in Catholicism you are alluding to, so I can’t specifically address this issue.
Click to expand...
I am referring to the change from small persecuted groups to about the middle of the fourth century A.D. This is when Christianity became the State religion of Rome. After the fall of Rome Europe plunges into the Dark Ages and the one relatively stable political power during this process is the Church. Being Political though it had expanded well past small groups meeting in homes. If you compare it’s political structure with that of the Roman empire there are definitely similarities (one central power with descending positions of power and responsibility). One of my key issues with this change is the formation of Just War Theory. Before about the forth century it was never really brought up. later when the Church is a political body killing in battle is ok (I didn’t see any evidence of Christians rising up to overthrow Nero, in fact most early Christians willingly gave up their lives, finding blessing in being martyred in his name.

though there are other changes this is the one that has really affected me the most. Again I’m under the weather so I’ll try to get some more on the other topic for ya. Cold medication is making that kind of tough now 😛
 
40.png
Shlemele:
Sorry that this must be so brief but I have been sick the last few days with a store opening so I need to get some sleep. I just want to throw something out there for clarification;

I am referring to the change from small persecuted groups to about the middle of the fourth century A.D. This is when Christianity became the State religion of Rome. After the fall of Rome Europe plunges into the Dark Ages and the one relatively stable political power during this process is the Church. Being Political though it had expanded well past small groups meeting in homes. If you compare it’s political structure with that of the Roman empire there are definitely similarities (one central power with descending positions of power and responsibility). One of my key issues with this change is the formation of Just War Theory. Before about the forth century it was never really brought up. later when the Church is a political body killing in battle is ok (I didn’t see any evidence of Christians rising up to overthrow Nero, in fact most early Christians willingly gave up their lives, finding blessing in being martyred in his name.

though there are other changes this is the one that has really affected me the most. Again I’m under the weather so I’ll try to get some more on the other topic for ya. Cold medication is making that kind of tough now 😛
Click to expand...
Hi Shlemele, thank you for your reply. I hope you are feel better. God Bless!
 
Some questions are difficult to answer, some are simple. This question is a no brainer, it is so simple.

There is only one Church that was founded directly by Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. There is only one Church that traces an unbroken line straight back to Jesus and His Apostles. There is only one Church that has not changed its teachings from the time of Our Lord.

Was it the Church founded by Martin Luther?
Was it the Church founded by John Calvin?
Was it the Church founded by Zwingli?
Was it the Church founded by Henry VIII?
Was it the Church founded by John Wesley?
Was it the Church founded by Mary Baker Eddy?
Was it the Church founded by Joseph Smith?
Was it the Church founded by any one of the hundreds of self-styled gurus, self-proclaimed visionaries or straight out quacks that have appeared over the centuries?

NO.

It was the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself and led by the Apostles He chose and their successors ordained to follow them under the leadership of the Apostle Peter chosen by Jesus to lead His Church.
There is only one Church that fits that description - the One, Catholic and Apostolic Church as proclaimed in the Creed.
 
Jimmy B.,

Yes I am saying that every Protestant Church that is Trinitarian in belief is just as much a True Christian Church as the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches are and that incluldes the Anglican and Episcopal Churches, the Presbyterian Church, the Lutheran Church, the Reformed Church in America and the Methodist Church. The churches that deny the Trinity such as the Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Christian Science are cults the same as Jim Jones was a cult leader and Jones church was a cult.

Even the Fundamentalist Churches who state that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon are True Christian Churches because they believe in the Trinity.
 
There are 30,000 Christian and psuedo Christian organizations (per the IRS tax records) and ONLY ONE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Blessings,
Joanie
 
Dr. Kreeft came up with this one:

How can you squeeze INFALLABLE Bible juice from a FALLABLE Catholic orange?
 
How do you know which church is truly The Church of Jesus Christ?

It is The Church of saints on earth, people doing the will of the Father as far as their consciences tell them.

Some of these saints are in other religions which are not Christian religions.

Some of these saints are in Christian religions which are not Catholic.

But so long as a person follows the dictates of his/her conscience, THAT PERSON FALLS UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF CHRIST’ TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED ON PETER.

A person being human sometimes follows his conscience while sometimes does not follow his conscience. In this sense, the person sometimes is in Christ’s Church and sometimes, like the prodigal son perhaps has wandered outside of Christ’s Church. But like Moses whose hands were lifted up by others, like Christ who rose every time he fell (one time with the help of Simone of Cyrenee), a saint on earth sooner or later again follows his/her conscience. That’s why like those who helped raise Moses’ hands, like Christ who washed the dirty feet of his apostles, we too must wash the faults of others, not tempt other to sin, but help make the world a place where it is easy for everyone to follow one’s conscience. That why those of you who make BAD LAWS for the sake of the SPECIAL INTERESTS for example, Isaiah 10:1 says "WOE TO YOU WHO ENACT UNJUST STATUTES. . . . . . . . " Through God’s Grace, The Holy Spirit will enlighten persons and remind them things that Jesus, the Teacher, the Messiah said. By such process, consciences of people will conflict less and less as they get educated and educated by the Holy Spirit.

As somebody said, the Holy Spirit is like a slowly moving spot light shining its slowly moving light on the floor. Each of us is like an ant on that floor illumined by the moving spot light. SO LONG AS A PERSON MAKES IT A HABIT TO STAY WITH THE LIGHT WHEREVER IT MOVES, - THE PERSON WILL ALWAYS BE WITH THE MOVING LIGHT. But if a person wants to be clever, and wanders out into the darkness, AT DEATH, THAT PERSON MAY OR MAY NOT DIE INSIDE THE LIGHT. WOULD YOU LIKE TO DIE OUTSIDE THAT LIGHT??? In my opinion, persons inside the light are persons inside the Church that Christ founded on Peter. And it includes, i believe, Protestants like the girl in Columbine who unto death was commanding her killer to follow Christ, that what he is doing is a sin!!! It also includes I believe, people like Ghandi and Buddha who I think were people trying to sincerely follow their conscience.
A person might be Roman Catholic and have most of the knowledge of what Christ said. “To those who were given more, more is expected (like this knowledge that that Consecrated Bread is Christ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity). To those who were given less, less is expected.” “Not eveyone who calls me Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven (not even those who performed or received miracles), but only those who do the will of The Father”, says Jesus Christ in the Gospels.

Those who end up in heaven are members of the True Church. Which Church or Churches or Religions have the most Saints and saints in heaven??? What’s the indication that a person is in heaven??? God listens responds well to the prayers of said dead person!!! If you know of anybody with incurable cancer, ask your departed to ask God for a cure. Maybe God will respond well to his/her request. That way you know that a person in that church is in heaven!!!
 
The Eurasian:
How do you know which church is truly The Church of Jesus Christ?
Click to expand...
It is The Church of saints on earth, people doing the will of the Father as far as their consciences tell them…

Eurasian,
Thank to for your reply. I believe I know what you are basing you comments on - (CCC #847)
**
**CATECHISM OF THE **
Click to expand...
CATHOLIC CHURCH
****"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
****** 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 *** *
**
What does, “through no fault of their own" mean to you? And maybe you can tell me what your feelings are regarding apostates? Thanks again and God Bless
 
John Mazar:
Jimmy B.,

Yes I am saying that every Protestant Church that is Trinitarian in belief is just as much a True Christian Church as the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches are and that incluldes the Anglican and Episcopal Churches, the Presbyterian Church, the Lutheran Church, the Reformed Church in America and the Methodist Church. The churches that deny the Trinity such as the Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Christian Science are cults the same as Jim Jones was a cult leader and Jones church was a cult.

Even the Fundamentalist Churches who state that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon are True Christian Churches because they believe in the Trinity.
Click to expand...
So you are saying that beliefs about thousands of life defining topics don’t matter, only belief concerning one topic defines whether any one of the thousands of denominations is the true Church.

What about:

abortion
marriage and divorce
euthanasia
baptism
the sacraments
heaven and hell
salvation
scripture
the intercesiion of the saints
the role of Mary
and many, many other issues of a life defining nature??

Don’t they matter? Of course they do.
Of course God has given us guidance on all these issues. And since the thousands of denominations have radically differing views on these issues we have to ask which is right.

Again, there is only one logical answer. The Church that traces its origin back to Jesus Christ Himself. The only Church that was not started by some human being centuries AFTER the time of Christ.
The Catholic Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top