How do you know you have a relationship with God?

[ethereality]

How do you know you have a relationship with God?

Since we are taught that God is our Father, let’s first brainstorm the ways we know we have a relationship with our parents:

1. 
   *]We see them.
   *]Others see them.
   *]We speak to them.
   *]They speak to us.
   *]We give them things.
   *]They give us things.
   *]We spend time together.
   *]We touch them.
   *]They touch us.
   *]We listen to them.
   *]They listen to us.
   *]Others tell us about them.
   *]We tell others about them.
   
   Are there any other ways that we know we have a relationship with our parents? Are there any other ways that we know we have a relationship with God?
   
   Looking at this list, then, it appears that, apart from private revelation, every item on this list can be freely accepted or rejected:
   1. 
      *]We see the Eucharist. / “You see only bread and wine.”
      ]Others see the Eucharist. / “Others see only bread and wine.”
      *]We pray. / “You talk to the air, or else think thoughts by yourself.”
      *]We read the Bible, thoughts occur to us, and we use our reason which the Holy Spirit guides. / “The Bible was written by men, not God; your thoughts are your own, and they are not aided nor directed by God.”
      *]We offer our sufferings, etc. to God, and do things for each other, thus doing them for God. / “You’re talking to the air, and doing things for human beings, not God.”
      *]Everything that exists in our lives is a gift to us from God. / “Everything that exists is simply a brute fact of an indifferent universe.”
      *]We spend time before the Blessed Sacrament (Jesus), and with each other (within whom God dwells). / “You spend time with bread, and with other human beings, not God.”
      *]We receive the Eucharist. / “You receive bread and wine, not God.”
      *]We receive the Sacraments, through which God physically bestows grace. / “A priest does things with water, bread, etc., not God.”
      *]We keep God’s commandments and listen to what the priest tells us in persona Christi at Confession. / “You obey a collection of men running the Catholic Church, and listen to what a man tells you.”
      *]According to the Bible and the Church we know that God hears us. / “You don’t know that God hears you.”
      *]We are told about God by the Church. / “You’re told false stories, overactive imagination, and misunderstandings by the Church.”
      *]We tell others about God. / “You tell others your misunderstandings.”
      
      My problem, then, is that I want desperately to have a relationship with God, or more of one, and directly, or at least, not having to convince myself that the indirect method described above is correct. Put another way, I don’t understand why God isn’t doing certain things, why He is allowing other things, and why He’s not making these points clear to me, and so I am tempted to think the contrary position is correct.
      
      As for the most recent example, this morning after reading today’s Daily Reading I thought perhaps God wanted me to visit Him, to come before the Tabernacle, even though there was no Mass today. So I did, and I prayed, reflected, meditated, sat quietly, tried to listen, waited, and ultimately left feeling empty and alone: It’s what the atheist would predict would happen.
      
      Of course I’m going to keep doing it (see Luke 18 noting verse 1), but I cannot understand this silent treatment. (I’ve also asked God to make clear to me what I’m doing wrong, if I’m offending Him, etc.) I understand what others have said that sometimes God “withholds consolations” so that we come to desire Him for Himself and not for His blessings, and so that our virtues of faith, hope, and love are strengthened. (Faith that the Church’s message is true, hope in obtaining it, and charity in putting it into practice: Perhaps I may come to see God more in my neighbors.)
      
      And yet there are some perhaps obvious objections to these ideas justifying the “Dark Night”:
      1. 
         *]Man is man and God is God. Logically, when I want God, I cannot be satisfied with serving men and thinking of them as if they were God, because they are men and not God.
         *]I already want a relationship with God, and I’m not treating Him like “a vending machine.”[1]
         *]This method of growing in virtue is both akin to torture and pushing me to the edge of a cliff to see whether I’ll go over. I don’t see how it can be justified as a loving act.[2]
         
         How can I know that I have a relationship with God? Why doesn’t God help me understand more (e.g. the reason for my suffering)?
         • Regarding private revelation, every one I’ve read about has been of Mary or angels, never any Person of the Trinity directly. Even St. Faustina’s Divine Mercy revelation I understand was an image of Jesus revealed to her, not Jesus Himself actually before her, and that she (and other mystics) only heard his voice. Is this correct? Are there any Church-approved private revelations coming directly, visibly from God? My theory here is that Jesus isn’t going to personally appear privately to someone until He returns publicly at the end of time for everyone.
         [1] By the way, this trite response is thrown around recklessly every time someone complains of “the silent treatment” or unanswered prayer. I think Fr. Serpa has also phrased this in terms of ‘magician’, ‘computer’, and ‘nanny’. I wish people would stop this “blaming the victim”: When one is upset that God is not doing what they thought He said He’d do, that in itself does not justify accusing them of belittling God.
         
         [2] Others have said here, “It’s like undergoing a painful medical procedure – you may not understand it but it’s for your own good.” The problem here is that for these painful goods, we are explicitly told why or else comforted meanwhile. I’ve elaborated on this point elsewhere.

 

[therese14]

I once had a very tangible relationship with God. However , it can be ruined by our sin and others sin. So… I wish to have a solitary life… I have a shaken belief in the church because of what the leaders do sometimes, so having a good and holy priest is important. Listening to good semons help me a lot. I am testing audiosancto.org to find wholesome sermon at the moment. My 2 cents

 

[JRKH]

One knows they have a relationship with God through Love.

Read 1 John:4…
He who knows Love knows God. He who does not know Love does not know God.

“Knowing” in this context does not mean simply an intellectual knowledge, rather it means embracing - to be convicted in - Love is the core of faith.

Love is the unifying factor throughout the NT…and indeed all of salvation history.

Peace
James

 

[benedictum]

I think God is testing your faith. Like Abram, God sent him to places and even ask Abram to sacrifice his own son. You should be persistent and do not give up! Look up Genesis 32:22-29 where Jacob wrestles with a “man”, even having his hip dislocated. Jacob hang on saying, “I will not let you go unless you bless me” The man then acceded and blest him and changed his name to Israel.

I think it is ok to wrestle with God and if you persist you will eventually be enlightend.

God Bless.

 

[JRKH]

ethereality,
I find it rather interesting that in the OP you never mention Love…
We love our parents.
Our parents love us.

I see this as something significant to consider…
Why did you not think to include this?

Peace
James

 

[ethereality]

ethereality,
I find it rather interesting that in the OP you never mention Love…
We love our parents.
Our parents love us.

I see this as something significant to consider…
Why did you not think to include this?

Peace
James

I did think of this, and it is included in the verbs I’ve listed. Love is something that you demonstrate through your actions; it is not something that you “do”.

 

[janiruchan]

You cant be in a relationship with someone you dont know.
In the same way, you cant love someone you dont know.

So the best means to know, to love or to be in a relationship with God is through prayer.
I talk him like a friend/Father.
Second, to know Him more, I read His words (Bible), I receive His graces and blessings through the sacraments.
Third, to listen and know His will, I also listen to His friends (spiritual companions, priest, spiritual directors and nuns) and the events happening in my life.

I mean, God has a different language…and he speaks to me in so many ways especially in my heart where He is.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

** My theory here is that Jesus isn’t going to personally appear privately to someone until He returns publicly at the end of time for everyone.

**

I’m not going to go into my own experiences here, but I once heard a personal testimony by a former homosexual way back in my old Presbyterian Church.

In his testimony, he claimed that at his second and deadly serious suicide attempt, Christ materialised in the corner of the room, moved towards him and somehow just seemed to merge with him.

He claimed from that time on, he never even had to struggle with the temptation of homosexuality, had married, and had a couple of young sons to boot.

Now that’s not going to make the list of church approved apparitions. For one thing, he was a Protestant. For another there were no other witnesses, and the only miraculous element about it was Christ’s appearance, and his complete change of behaviour, without effort on his part.

Yet he’d been very heavily into the homosexual scene in Sydney - BDSM, the lot. He said he used to stand on street corners with other homosexuals commenting on how they’d like to kill Fred Nile, a Christian morals campaigner in the NSW parliament. Ironically Fred Nile later had a bit to do with his rehabilitation.

I believe him. I’ve had too many spiritual experiences of my own not to. And I got no sense of deception when he was telling the story. He wasn’t proud of his homosexual past, but he was prepared to tell the story.

It happens. Getting people to believe it is the hard part.

 

[JRKH]

I did think of this, and it is included in the verbs I’ve listed. Love is something that you demonstrate through your actions; it is not something that you “do”.

OK…

I still would not omit it since it is the root of any healthy relationship. In fact, if you make it the first thing on the list, you don’t need all the actions that should be pointing to love. With love at it’s core, all of the actions follow.

But all that said, my original answer stands…you know you are in a relationship with God through and by Love. Jesus tells us that this is how the world will know that we are His disciples - by our love for one another.

Peace
James

 

[dshix]

The OP has a rather odd question, but I think it has a very, very simple answer.

We always have a relationship with God, provided that we choose to love Him by our actions.

God isn’t like our parents. Our parents might break from us, might choose to not love us. But God is eternally forgiving of all our sins, so as long as we choose to love Him, it is not possible for us to NOT have a relationship with Him

 

[ethereality]

I’m a little disappointed that there hasn’t been more replies. Does this mean I have indeed listed every way we know we have a relationship with someone?

Can anyone give further evidence that the atheist rejection of these propositions is wrong, or strengthen my conviction that the Christian is right? So far God is still not answering my questions, still remaining silent such that I even fall into sin. (For example, “God, how do I handle this temptation? What is the ‘way out’? How am I supposed to respond in this situation?” No answer.)

 

[JRKH]

I’m a little disappointed that there hasn’t been more replies. Does this mean I have indeed listed every way we know we have a relationship with someone?

I’m sorry that you have not found our replies helpful.

There are perhaps thousands of particulars that demonstrate some way in which we have a relationship with another - but relationships all boil down to - and stem from - Love. That is what Jesus taught us and so that is where we must start and build from.

Can anyone give further evidence that the atheist rejection of these propositions is wrong,

Can the Atheist offer any more evidence that they are right?
Either question can be asked. My question is this…What is the advantage of accepting the position of non-belief over the accepting the position of belief?

or strengthen my conviction that the Christian is right?

Asking for such evidence strikes me as being like those who were constantly asking Jesus for a sign - sometimes right after he had just miraculously healed someone. They missed the miracle - indeed they missed Jesus - because they were not interiorly disposed to see.
The “evidence” you seek cannot come unless you are likewise interiorly disposed and that disposition comes from two things. The first is simplicity (You must be as Children to enter the kingdom) and the other is Love (without love we cannot know God.
Cultivate these things and the evidence - which already exists all around you - will be made evident to you.

So far God is still not answering my questions, still remaining silent such that I even fall into sin. (For example, “God, how do I handle this temptation? What is the ‘way out’? How am I supposed to respond in this situation?” No answer.)

Is He not answering?
Or
Are you just not yet able to hear Him?
Or
Are the temptations as yet too strong for you to resist?

We have all been in these kinds of situations and sometimes it is very hard to know the right thing to do or even to recognize when our Loving Father DOES answer us.

In your list of how parents and children relate…Consider how (very often) a child reaches maturity, comes back to a parent and says that they realize some thing or other…the parent looks at them with all love and says…“I have been telling you that exact thing for many years now”.
Or the child will actually come to the parent and say, “NOW I see what you were saying all that time.”

Of course there are many variations on the above scenario…but they all boil down to this. If the child is not disposed to hear, then they will simply not hear the parent’s answer.

This thread might be just such an example. You asked a question and received some good answers. Yet have you truly heard the answers?
It can be truly difficult sometimes…believe me, I know…

May God continue to guide you on your journey.

Peace
James

 

[BobCatholic]

When one is in the Dark Night of the Soul, one can never know they have a relationship with God. There is no feeling. No sense. No way to know that God even cares. He is absent during this time.

Mentally, logically, rationally, I understand why God does this. He wants real friends. He wants you to love him, and not just for the warm fuzzies he may give you. He wants you to love him for him, he does not want you to love the warm fuzzies.

Imagine you had a friend who only comes by when they want something from you. Eventually, you won’t want anything to do with them. They’re leeches. They only want you for what you can give them. Clearly, they’re not your real friends.

Now imagine a friend who comes by irrelevant of whether you give him something or not. Sometimes he asks for things but usually doesn’t. He wants to be your friend because of you, not because of him. Clearly, he’s a real friend. God wants that kind of friend. That’s why he does the dark night of the soul.

Emotionally, the dark night of the soul is devastating to people. It hurts in a very painful personal way. One feels abandoned. It can utterly destroy one’s faith in God. But if you get past this hard time, you MAY get stronger. Then there’s the problem that one may NEVER leave the dark night of the soul until death. That is the hardest life of all.

So, can people know they have a relationship with God? Not in a dark night of the soul.

 

[rcwitness]

To address the question directly, first; we know we have a relationship with God because of the Prophets, the Law and finally the Son of God who is Jesus.

John 10 (RSVCE)

Jesus the Good Shepherd
10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; 2 but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

… 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;

Galatians 4 (RSVCE)

4 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate; 2 but he is under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. 3 So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe. 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir.

Knowing who God is through His manifested Son, is the beginning of a relationship with Him. God the Father of all chose to have the most intimate of relations with man, we have the ability to make it a good relationship or a bad one depending on if we walk by faith or not.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Hi ethereality,

I have been thinking about your posts, and again, I am so very, very, sorry for your physical and emotional pain and suffering.

I was just reading Bob Catholic’s post about love, and I agree with it, as I approached my relationship with God in that manner when I was absent from church for awhile, some years ago.

When I returned to church, I was so happy to be back, and so grateful to be back into a relationship with God, that all that I focused on, was loving Him. It came from my heart. I didn’t ask Him for anything then. I was just so happy to be in His presence at Mass, and was happy to make use of the Sacraments.

In return if you will, I felt called by the Holy Spirit to come even closer to God. By that, I mean to go to Mass even more often, and to attend more parish activities, too. All good things, as a result.

So I guess that I would recommend that perhaps you try focusing your relationship with God from that angle, where you just go to church to be with Him out of love, where you are not asking Him to do anything for you, but that you are going because you want to be with Him. The same thing with other things in your life. Just focus on Him with love, instead of asking Him for anything at this time.

 

[fred_conty]

If a person is in the state of grace which is friendship with God.

And what that means is that God lives interiorly in a person, and that a person’s exterior works match his interior life in God, so that he reflects Jesus, the Father’s son.

And from there, the interior life of God increases…the friendship of God

 

[LoveMorrissey]

I look back on the life I led as an Atheist and it was an empty and selfish one. After going to Mass for a while with my Catholic friends I felt something of a revelation. It was as if God was calling me.

How do I know? Every time I ask God for help, he sends me on the right path.

Thanks be to God

 

[undeserving]

It’s not a feeling, its the way you want to lead your life. When God is active in your life you will want to please Him. Automatically you will hate what he hates, love what he loves. Its a disposition of mind and intellect to need to belong to Jesus,to want to love him more, to make him known, to make him loved more. Its when you think about him all the time, when you want to talk about him - this is what I think it means when we speak of a relationship with our “Tremendous Lover”****

 

[ethereality]

I’ve come back to this thread because I have returned to the same question. I am thinking of quitting Mass attendance, Bible reading, and prayer – ie. concluding that Christian belief is a Grand Mistake, concluding that agnosticism is true and practical atheism best – after Easter, if God does not … do something more, if my life does not change: I cannot bear to continue trying to believe that God is my Father, that I am His adopted son, that the Eucharist is Jesus, that all things work for our good if we are obedient, in light of such Absence, Silence, pain, and absurdity as I experience in my life. Belief in spite of this evidence, especially given the gross lack of reason to believe,* is unreasonable.

• In addition to God’s apparent silence, inactivity, etc., I have yet to encounter an argument that is not false, invalid, or uncertain.

 

[dshix]

I’ve come back to this thread because I have returned to the same question. I am thinking of quitting Mass attendance, Bible reading, and prayer – ie. concluding that Christian belief is a Grand Mistake, concluding that agnosticism is true and practical atheism best – after Easter, if God does not … do something more, if my life does not change: I cannot bear to continue trying to believe that God is my Father, that I am His adopted son, that the Eucharist is Jesus, that all things work for our good if we are obedient, in light of such Absence, Silence, pain, and absurdity as I experience in my life. Belief in spite of this evidence, especially given the gross lack of reason to believe,* is unreasonable.

• In addition to God’s apparent silence, inactivity, etc., I have yet to encounter an argument that is not false, invalid, or uncertain.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of suffering, and role which it plays in our salvation.

Suffering in this world is, of course, painful, and it is easy for us to take on a way of life which has as its object the elimination of suffering. But this loses track of why suffering exists. It is here for our salvation, for expiation from our sins. God allows suffering because greater good can come of it, and by patiently suffering, we can become great saints.

You say that there is a “gross lack of reason to believe [in God]” due to “God’s apparent silence, inactivity, etc.”

I think that God seems silent to you because you don’t understand how He speaks. God doesn’t speak or act like humans do. He acts in hidden ways, and guides us to truth by using other people as instruments.

If you are waiting for God to perform a miracle for you, or for him to give you some physical manifestation or locution, you will probably be disappointed, because God does not often act in this way, and he certainly will not do so in order to force someone to believe in Him (to do so would be to violate that person’s free will).

I suggest you pursue these questions you have with a priest. I am sure that there are many other concerns or questions you have, and the best way for you to find answers to speak with a spiritual director in person.