How Do You Know Your Interpretation Is Correct?

[Cinette]

*In today’s world when there is a disaster I remember that God gave us dominion over the earth. If we abuse this there are natural consequences - we have not shown respect for nature… Also for the earth to function it is necessary, from time to time for there to be a release of heat from the centre of the earth. We should do our best to settle in areas that are not prone to such disasters. Since the lava enriches the soil we should perhaps grow crops in those areas without actually living there - if that is possible. There needs to be balance. I don’t believe that God punishes us - I believe that many disasters in our personal lives and in the earth is a result of our actions. We will be judged one day and then we will know the consequences - we have been warned.

We should also remember that God’s ways are not our ways.

Cinette*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pitcharan,

I was totally unaware of these problems or even of these examples! Thanks for sharing this information.

God bless

But what most people do not know is about the fact that some evil scribes did distort the Scriptures. It is so plainly said in the OT itself: How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jer 8:8).
Our Lord made it very clear that “permission for divorce” was a human aberration and not God’s Law? See below examples of (i) addition, (ii) deletion and (iii) falsification, by evil men?

1. ADDITION
   God’s “love command”: 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19 :18), was compromised to the extent of institutionalising hatred and revenge by hard hearted people who had this written down: If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. (Lev 24:19-20).
2. DELETION
   It was prophesied in the OT that the Messiah to come will be called a Nazarene: So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene”. (Matt 2:23c) and that He will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day: *He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day”. *(Lk 23:46).

Who removed from the OT, the verses that said this? Obviously, the authorities who held control over the Scriptures then, because they wanted to cover their crime of having aided and abetted the murder of their Messiah.

1. FALSIFICATION
   They even tried to supress the truth of His resurrection: When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep’.” (Matt 28:12-13)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

In my opinion… it is an odd arrangement when someone goes about to specifically establish a god of their own creation (e.g., Dualism, Gnosticism, etc) whereby they say, “My god does this but your god did that!”. I think the more common experience is to go about just errecting an idol (like money or drugs) and spending our lives in the service of this obviously false god. No further thought is given to anything or anyone else - except this idol - and we do more than burn incense at this altar - we burn ourselves!

God bless Rabbi Herschel

God bless

Indeed. Otherwise we have created a god in our own image, a god that makes us feel comfortable.

I believe that if we really are following the Truth of what’s been revealed, much of it should make us uncomfortable.

I think I read of a rabbi–Abraham Herschel who said (paraphrasing): God is not an uncle. He is not a teddy bear. He is an earthquake.

Indeed!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

You know, from time to time I get the distinct impression that we, as a people, have misused our dominion - and, simply turned it to an enslavement of world’s resources. And from time to time we are given the message that the Earth will not be ensalved.

I think, as simply a practical application, people will live close to where they work … farmers living on or at least near their farm. Of course, it could be argued that people make many foolish decisions - and, make a habit out of not learning from history - especially in the area of active volcanoes (even though the soil is rich!). My wife and I had visited Naples - and, it is truly a wonderful city…with only one major problem - it is less than 6 miles from Mount Vesuvius (a lesson you think would have been passed on by the disaster that befell Pompeii in 79AD. Vesuvius not only has not gone away - it is still active - so, eventually, it will blow again, and a major human disaster will unfold before our eyes.

Everyone now and then, I get the impression that we are doing something positive with our stewardship of the earth … but, this seems to be the exception.

God bless

*In today’s world when there is a disaster I remember that God gave us dominion over the earth. If we abuse this there are natural consequences - we have not shown respect for nature… Also for the earth to function it is necessary, from time to time for there to be a release of heat from the centre of the earth. We should do our best to settle in areas that are not prone to such disasters. Since the lava enriches the soil we should perhaps grow crops in those areas without actually living there - if that is possible. There needs to be balance. I don’t believe that God punishes us - I believe that many disasters in our personal lives and in the earth is a result of our actions. We will be judged one day and then we will know the consequences - we have been warned.

We should also remember that God’s ways are not our ways.

Cinette*

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi, PRmerger,

In my opinion… it is an odd arrangement when someone goes about to specifically establish a god of their own creation (e.g., Dualism, Gnosticism, etc) whereby they say, “My god does this but your god did that!”. I think the more common experience is to go about just errecting an idol (like money or drugs) and spending our lives in the service of this obviously false god. No further thought is given to anything or anyone else - except this idol - and we do more than burn incense at this altar - we burn ourselves!

God bless Rabbi Herschel

God bless

Hi Tqualey!
In this regard, i.e. concerning “idolatory” I invite you to read this post of mine on another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6953762&mode=linear#post6953762

 

[Anna_Scott]

But what most people do not know is about the fact that some evil scribes did distort the Scriptures. It is so plainly said in the OT itself: How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jer 8:8).
Our Lord made it very clear that “permission for divorce” was a human aberration and not God’s Law? See below examples of (i) addition, (ii) deletion and (iii) falsification, by evil men?

1. ADDITION
   God’s “love command”: 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19 :18), was compromised to the extent of institutionalising hatred and revenge by hard hearted people who had this written down: If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. (Lev 24:19-20).
2. DELETION
   It was prophesied in the OT that the Messiah to come will be called a Nazarene: So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene”. (Matt 2:23c) and that He will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day: *He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day”. *(Lk 23:46).

Who removed from the OT, the verses that said this? Obviously, the authorities who held control over the Scriptures then, because they wanted to cover their crime of having aided and abetted the murder of their Messiah.

1. FALSIFICATION
   They even tried to supress the truth of His resurrection: When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep’.” (Matt 28:12-13)

Pitcharan,

I spent quite a bit of time reading about the variants in Scripture. There are a surprising number. I’ve read that there are more variants among N.T. manuscripts than there are words in the N.T. Most were scribal errors, but some were obviously intentional. It’s an interesting study. The KJV has quite a few, even now, and not all Bible translations are created equal.

Roy5 is straying into dualism; but I can understand his issues with the violence of the O.T. This violence has turned people away from Christianity, especially when viewed in light of the violence committed in the name of Christ over the last 2000 years. I think God is often blamed for things He did not do. That is a problem and it can be confusing for both Christians and non-Christians. So, I wouldn’t be too hard on Roy5. This may be something he has to sort out on his own. At least you’ve given him some things to consider.

I can’t say that I understand the violence depicted in the O.T. Perhaps men attributed things to God that were not from Him. Perhaps God did order such destruction. I don’t know. It’s a tough subject.

Anna

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pitcharan,

Thanks for the link - I enjoyed your post … and… I made a contribution to that thread…

God bless

Hi Tqualey!
In this regard, i.e. concerning “idolatory” I invite you to read this post of mine on another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6953762&mode=linear#post6953762

 

[Roy5]

Gosh, I don’t have time for this. Is the ‘devil’ tempting me to respond to all these points.

In a nutshell, I am not a gnostic in any respect. I do not believe that any god ordered the atrocities recorded in the Old Testament. I think the writers wanted to justify such massacres by blaming them on God - and offer all this as proof that yhey were god's chosen! I don't believe in any chosen people. Nor do I believe that God causes floods in Pakistan or anywhere else.

To begin with, I don't pretend to know all about God. I have trouble with any religion that claims such a knowledge. My hope is that someday we will understand such tragedies whether in the world at large or in our personal lives. My general perspective is that there is free will, which can help explain individual sufferings. Now, as to natural disasters and, say, miscarriages, the birth of disadvantaged children, etc., I simply don't know and don't need to know. I walk by faith and not by knowledge. Some of my favorite gospel hymns express the expectation that "someday he'll make it plain to me..." etc.

 Meanwhile, I am content to live by faith in a loving, forgiving God. Many people seem to need fuller theologies which explain a lot more than I think we can explain with the knowledge we have. That's why traditional Catholicism and Protestant fundamentalism, along with religions like Islam, have wide appeal. They provide answers people want and/or need. 

 I don't have time to provide a full explanation of my thoughts and conclusions. I come from a mixed background, have (for example) seen and heard four popes - Pius XII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. the last three in NYCity - but I have considerable sympathy for mainline Protestantism which in general places far less emphasis on the need to embrace precise doctrines. Was Mary a perpetual virgin or not? I don't know and I don't really care. Did Jesus put demons in pigs which then rushed down a cliff? I have serious doubts, but my belief is Jesus centers on the Sermon on the Mount and not whether he walked on water or met with Moses and Elijah or fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes.

 Honestly, I believe early Christianity soon was invaded by pagan influences, a natural-enough occurence in a superstitious age. I twy to look beyond all that and see the wonder of Christ's ministry and teachings.   

 But God bless everybody, of all faiths. Let's try to make religion a bridge that unites and not a barrier that creates hatred, arrogance, and tribalism.

 

[larkin31]

Gosh, I don’t have time for this. Is the ‘devil’ tempting me to respond to all these points.

In a nutshell, I am not a gnostic in any respect. I do not believe that any god ordered the atrocities recorded in the Old Testament. I think the writers wanted to justify such massacres by blaming them on God - and offer all this as proof that yhey were god's chosen! I don't believe in any chosen people. Nor do I believe that God causes floods in Pakistan or anywhere else.

To begin with, I don't pretend to know all about God. I have trouble with any religion that claims such a knowledge. My hope is that someday we will understand such tragedies whether in the world at large or in our personal lives. My general perspective is that there is free will, which can help explain individual sufferings. Now, as to natural disasters and, say, miscarriages, the birth of disadvantaged children, etc., I simply don't know and don't need to know. I walk by faith and not by knowledge. Some of my favorite gospel hymns express the expectation that "someday he'll make it plain to me..." etc.

 Meanwhile, I am content to live by faith in a loving, forgiving God. Many people seem to need fuller theologies which explain a lot more than I think we can explain with the knowledge we have. That's why traditional Catholicism and Protestant fundamentalism, along with religions like Islam, have wide appeal. They provide answers people want and/or need. 

 I don't have time to provide a full explanation of my thoughts and conclusions. I come from a mixed background, have (for example) seen and heard four popes - Pius XII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. the last three in NYCity - but I have considerable sympathy for mainline Protestantism which in general places far less emphasis on the need to embrace precise doctrines. Was Mary a perpetual virgin or not? I don't know and I don't really care. Did Jesus put demons in pigs which then rushed down a cliff? I have serious doubts, but my belief is Jesus centers on the Sermon on the Mount and not whether he walked on water or met with Moses and Elijah or fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes.

 Honestly, I believe early Christianity soon was invaded by pagan influences, a natural-enough occurence in a superstitious age. I twy to look beyond all that and see the wonder of Christ's ministry and teachings.   

 But God bless everybody, of all faiths. Let's try to make religion a bridge that unites and not a barrier that creates hatred, arrogance, and tribalism.

Wow

This post really resonated with me

Thanks for sharing, Roy. Really.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Gosh, I don’t have time for this. Is the ‘devil’ tempting me to respond to all these points.

In a nutshell, I am not a gnostic in any respect. I do not believe that any god ordered the atrocities recorded in the Old Testament. I think the writers wanted to justify such massacres by blaming them on God - and offer all this as proof that yhey were god's chosen! I don't believe in any chosen people. Nor do I believe that God causes floods in Pakistan or anywhere else.

To begin with, I don't pretend to know all about God. I have trouble with any religion that claims such a knowledge. My hope is that someday we will understand such tragedies whether in the world at large or in our personal lives. My general perspective is that there is free will, which can help explain individual sufferings. Now, as to natural disasters and, say, miscarriages, the birth of disadvantaged children, etc., I simply don't know and don't need to know. I walk by faith and not by knowledge. Some of my favorite gospel hymns express the expectation that "someday he'll make it plain to me..." etc.

 Meanwhile, I am content to live by faith in a loving, forgiving God. Many people seem to need fuller theologies which explain a lot more than I think we can explain with the knowledge we have. That's why traditional Catholicism and Protestant fundamentalism, along with religions like Islam, have wide appeal. They provide answers people want and/or need. 

 I don't have time to provide a full explanation of my thoughts and conclusions. I come from a mixed background, have (for example) seen and heard four popes - Pius XII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. the last three in NYCity - but I have considerable sympathy for mainline Protestantism which in general places far less emphasis on the need to embrace precise doctrines. Was Mary a perpetual virgin or not? I don't know and I don't really care. Did Jesus put demons in pigs which then rushed down a cliff? I have serious doubts, but my belief is Jesus centers on the Sermon on the Mount and not whether he walked on water or met with Moses and Elijah or fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes.

 Honestly, I believe early Christianity soon was invaded by pagan influences, a natural-enough occurence in a superstitious age. I twy to look beyond all that and see the wonder of Christ's ministry and teachings.   

 But God bless everybody, of all faiths. Let's try to make religion a bridge that unites and not a barrier that creates hatred, arrogance, and tribalism.

Roy5,

I have several concerns about your post.

**1. ** Why would you think the “devil’ is tempting you to respond to all these points”? This statement puzzles me, because you joined a forum, which by its very nature engages us in debate and discussion. I would think receiving multiple responses to your posts would be a good thing. When our beliefs are challenged it pushes us to evaluate the source of our beliefs. Sometimes that strengthens our conviction in our beliefs, and sometimes it forces us to consider that we may be wrong about some things. That has certainly been the case for me.

2. I’m a little confused regarding your source of Biblical interpretation. You are making some statements that clearly contradict the Gospel.

I will just comment on one:

. . . . .I don’t believe in any chosen people. . . .

To believe there are no “chosen people” is to dismiss salvation history, along with the Old and New Covenant with God.
**
3. ** Why do you believe there are no chosen people?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Roy5,

Now… would that be the ‘good’ devil or the ‘bad’ devil doing the tempting…?

In all seriousness Roy5, merely claiming the label does not fit - yet cliaming to have all of the ingredients does not make much sense to me

Gosh, I don’t have time for this. Is the ‘devil’ tempting me to respond to all these points.

In a nutshell, I am not a gnostic in any respect. I do not believe that any god ordered the atrocities recorded in the Old Testament.

Well, here is the basic problem: God ordered a number of things that you apparently do not agree with. God even punished King Saul for failing to do exactly as he was commanded. This was not an incident of human excess in the face of the 5th Commandment. Let’s take a minute to look at this - because it really incorporates the entire sad tale of Saul’s failure to obey God’s direct commands to him - as leader of Isreal.

Back in Gen 36 we see that the Amalekites were no friends of the Hebrews - attacking the former slaves as they left Egypt. Moses had a pretty dim view of the Amalekites (Ex 17) Now we read where Saul is commanded to “utterly destroy” the Amalekites…and Saul decides that he is only going to partially obey God’s command - and spares King Agag’s life and the best of the animals. Well, when it comes to obedience, Saul is considered DIS-obedient - and Samuel let’s him know it in a very pointed manner as we read in 1Sam 15. God is not interested in sacrifice - God is interested in obedience. So, if you are interested in a ‘take-home-lesson’ there it is, but please note the context of what that obedience involved. Saul did not appear uneasy about killing those Amalekites that he was not interested in, or in slaughtering those animals he did not want - Saul put his will above the Will of God - and, it cost him dearly.

As I have said before, your desire to reject certain parts of the Bible while claiming to accept others is putting yourself in the position of determining what is the Inspired Word of God. This has already been done by the Catholic Church in 400AD. It appears as though you are now trying to usurp the authority of the Catholic Church. You really should read up on those who believe in Dualism and what the ECF said about this.

 Meanwhile, I am content to live by faith in a loving, forgiving God. Many people seem to need fuller theologies which explain a lot more than I think we can explain with the knowledge we have. That's why traditional Catholicism and Protestant fundamentalism, along with religions like Islam, have wide appeal. They provide answers people want and/or need.

Truly amazing. You have now established that you do not want the Catholic Church’s answers because, obviously, you have your own. Roy5, don’t you see where you are gong with this. Not only can you identify the good god from the evil god, and know what is inspired and what isn’t but now have the ability to sift through the answers provided by the Church and identify what is necessary and what isn’t. If you started out this post by wondering about the devil tempting you - in my opinion, you don’t have to wonder any longer.

 I don't have time to provide a full explanation of my thoughts and conclusions.

But, you do have the time to posit unsubstantiated statements that appear to truly old school heresies and then howl when such a lable is identified. Really Roy5, if you are going to take the time to post, pick one topic (other than all the things you do not like about the Catholic Church’s teachings) and document your position on that one post. If nothing else, it will help you to better formulate your position (it may come in handy for the Judgment - but, I would doubt it very seriously, indeed).

And, here is the latest in heretical posts? The Catholic Church has been overrun by pagans - and the Church founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16:18) so that the Gates of Hell would not prevail - failed early on in its birthing? Whatever you think you are looking is not what Christ gave us. My recommendation is to put your view of what is God’s Word and what isn’t in a box someplace and read the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as expressed in the Catechism. In fact, here is a link to the home page: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Now, be very careful here, Roy5… … you have been given the Truth about the Catholic Church’s official teachings. It is your choice as to what you do with this material - but, whatever you do, you will be held accountable.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Larkin31,

Would you kindly tell me what is it that resonated?

I notice that you list yourself as an Agnostic. Does the post coinside with Agnostic principles/beliefs?

God bless

Wow

This post really resonated with me

Thanks for sharing, Roy. Really.

 

[Roy5]

A few responses

 1.Obviously, I spoke of the 'devil' (in quotes) with tongue-in-cheek. I believe in the existence of evil, certainly, but tend to dismiss the usual depictions of Satan.

  2. No, I reject the idea of a chosen people, apart from the fact that we are all chosen in a sense. Jesus certainly lifted up the Samaritans in the Gospels and they were despised as 'unclean' by the ancient Hebrews. My view of God is that the Lord is just, and justice and a chosen people don't coexist easily. Besides, with maybe 100 million or more gallaxies out there I often wonder if God focuses so much attention upon this one tiny planet and spotlights this one small group.  Maybe. Just not sure. This concept of a chosen people, by the way, is a major reason we're in the mess today in the Middle East. I have great sympathy for the Jewish people, who were persecuted for centuries by Christians and others, but the idea that God is heavy into apportioning real estate always struck me as a primitive notion. I have been on pilgrimage to the Holy Land four times and every time returned with more sympathy for the Palestinians. Had we been compassionate and evenhanded, both genuinely pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian over the years, we might have avoided the mess, even including 9-11. Frankly, I believe the Pope agrees with me, but that is conjecture on my part.

  3. I'm not totally convinced that the Hebrew people ever were slaves in Egypt. Scholars haven't found a single piece of evidence that they were there. Read Theophile Meek's book *Hebrew Origins.* I certainly have some doubts that Moses turned his rod into a snake, and I can't imagine God sending an angel to murder the firstborn of every Egyptian family. Etc. Most of the plagues, by the way, can be seen as exaggerated examples of natural occurrences in Egypt, 

 4. Speaking of dualism, I find that in some aspects of Christianity. Isn't that what God vs. Satan is all about? Our Jehovah Witness friends go so far as to see the earth contolled by the devil. Didn't he take Jesus on to a high mountain and promise to give him all the kingdoms of the world if Christ would worship him? Now, if he could give all the kingdoms he must reign over all the kingdoms. Thus JWs say, every nation is under Satanic control, which is why they refuse to salute the flag, vote, and more. Now I reject JW teaching, of course, but this particular teaching of theirs shows how easy it is to quote scripture to justify all manner of belief.

 5. The tendency on CAF is to accuse skeptics like me of egotism, placing our own opinions above those of the church, etc. Not entirely. I respect most faiths because none of us has the full truth. I join other seekers and pilgrims. What I do maintain is that we should have the freedom to seek (and find) spiritual truth rather than accept what is given us by any religion. Certain forms of Christianity (traditional Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism, etc) and certainly Islam insist that we accept their teachings, period. I feel the right and even responsibility to weigh things and decide what seems to me reasonable and what I can't believe. Some will dismiss this as egotism; others will accept it as my choice. As for fearing God's retribution for my 'disbelief', I don't fret for a moment about that. God certainly is fair and my guess is that he respects those who use their God-given brain as long as we follow the essential principles: love him and one another.

 6, Twice I spent time in a Trappist monastery in Quebec (Oka). I have tried to be well-read in Catholicism as in other faiths. I have read most of the Church Fathers and find Origen my favorite - a wicked heretic, I understand. Early on he realized that much in the Gospels was to be taken symbolically and not literally. My problem with the Church Fathers is that despite incisive and brilliant minds they didn't have the benefit of modern telescopes and microscopes and their writings are filled with misinformation that was widely believed at that time. If I could believe all that Catholicism requires, I would be a good Catholic, as I greatly admire its work among the poor, through its hospitals, and its schools around the world. But one has to be honest with oneself. Polls seem to suggest that half or so of Catholics in the US share my doubts about major doctrines. So, I certainly don't feel isolated or a pioneer of any sort. Many have traveled this route before.

  7. For those of you who believe that God ordered Joshua to murder the inhabitants of Jericho and Ai and that he commanded Saul to murder every remaining Amalekite, I assume you believe also that the ends justify the means. I have some difficulty with this, and especially where God is concerned. How many abortions, for example, have been justified based on that concept? Millions. 

  God bless everybody who seeks to live by the teachings of Christ, which - as he said - were basically love him and one another.

 

[Tommy555]

Now, be sure to read the link I gave you on the Marian doctrines. If something is not clear from this link, I will do my best to answer your question(s)

God bless

I must have missed it. What links?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tommy555,

You didn’t miss it … I dropped the ball and forgot to attach it…

Try this: newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Sorry about that…

God bless

Now, be sure to read the link I gave you on the Marian doctrines. If something is not clear from this link, I will do my best to answer your question(s)

God bless

I must have missed it. What links?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Roy5,

Whenever you wish to stop your free-style ramblings and actually put for some documentation as to the veracity of the statements you have made - please do so. I have attempted to identify the numerous errors in your posts, but you continue to say, “I don’t believe because I don’t believe.” This makes me wonder why you are bother to post if you just want to make statements and not engage in debate.

Personally, I think your lack of response is sad, but not unexpected - you can’t even back up your own self-proclaimed predictions by citing the posting number… In my opinion, your statements have been shown to be false and you have failed to respond.

God bless

A few responses

 1.Obviously, I spoke of the 'devil' (in quotes) with tongue-in-cheek. I believe in the existence of evil, certainly, but tend to dismiss the usual depictions of Satan.

  2. No, I reject the idea of a chosen people, apart from the fact that we are all chosen in a sense. Jesus certainly lifted up the Samaritans in the Gospels and they were despised as 'unclean' by the ancient Hebrews. My view of God is that the Lord is just, and justice and a chosen people don't coexist easily. Besides, with maybe 100 million or more gallaxies out there I often wonder if God focuses so much attention upon this one tiny planet and spotlights this one small group.  Maybe. Just not sure. This concept of a chosen people, by the way, is a major reason we're in the mess today in the Middle East. I have great sympathy for the Jewish people, who were persecuted for centuries by Christians and others, but the idea that God is heavy into apportioning real estate always struck me as a primitive notion. I have been on pilgrimage to the Holy Land four times and every time returned with more sympathy for the Palestinians. Had we been compassionate and evenhanded, both genuinely pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian over the years, we might have avoided the mess, even including 9-11. Frankly, I believe the Pope agrees with me, but that is conjecture on my part.

  3. I'm not totally convinced that the Hebrew people ever were slaves in Egypt. Scholars haven't found a single piece of evidence that they were there. Read Theophile Meek's book *Hebrew Origins.* I certainly have some doubts that Moses turned his rod into a snake, and I can't imagine God sending an angel to murder the firstborn of every Egyptian family. Etc. Most of the plagues, by the way, can be seen as exaggerated examples of natural occurrences in Egypt, 

 4. Speaking of dualism, I find that in some aspects of Christianity. Isn't that what God vs. Satan is all about? Our Jehovah Witness friends go so far as to see the earth contolled by the devil. Didn't he take Jesus on to a high mountain and promise to give him all the kingdoms of the world if Christ would worship him? Now, if he could give all the kingdoms he must reign over all the kingdoms. Thus JWs say, every nation is under Satanic control, which is why they refuse to salute the flag, vote, and more. Now I reject JW teaching, of course, but this particular teaching of theirs shows how easy it is to quote scripture to justify all manner of belief.

 5. The tendency on CAF is to accuse skeptics like me of egotism, placing our own opinions above those of the church, etc. Not entirely. I respect most faiths because none of us has the full truth. I join other seekers and pilgrims. What I do maintain is that we should have the freedom to seek (and find) spiritual truth rather than accept what is given us by any religion. Certain forms of Christianity (traditional Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism, etc) and certainly Islam insist that we accept their teachings, period. I feel the right and even responsibility to weigh things and decide what seems to me reasonable and what I can't believe. Some will dismiss this as egotism; others will accept it as my choice. As for fearing God's retribution for my 'disbelief', I don't fret for a moment about that. God certainly is fair and my guess is that he respects those who use their God-given brain as long as we follow the essential principles: love him and one another.

 6, Twice I spent time in a Trappist monastery in Quebec (Oka). I have tried to be well-read in Catholicism as in other faiths. I have read most of the Church Fathers and find Origen my favorite - a wicked heretic, I understand. Early on he realized that much in the Gospels was to be taken symbolically and not literally. My problem with the Church Fathers is that despite incisive and brilliant minds they didn't have the benefit of modern telescopes and microscopes and their writings are filled with misinformation that was widely believed at that time. If I could believe all that Catholicism requires, I would be a good Catholic, as I greatly admire its work among the poor, through its hospitals, and its schools around the world. But one has to be honest with oneself. Polls seem to suggest that half or so of Catholics in the US share my doubts about major doctrines. So, I certainly don't feel isolated or a pioneer of any sort. Many have traveled this route before.

  7. For those of you who believe that God ordered Joshua to murder the inhabitants of Jericho and Ai and that he commanded Saul to murder every remaining Amalekite, I assume you believe also that the ends justify the means. I have some difficulty with this, and especially where God is concerned. How many abortions, for example, have been justified based on that concept? Millions. 

  God bless everybody who seeks to live by the teachings of Christ, which - as he said - were basically love him and one another.

 

[Tommy555]

Hi, tqualey:

Newadvent states: “According to our version, and the Vulgate reading, the woman herself will win the victory; according to the Hebrew text, she will be victorious through her seed. In this sense does the Bull “Ineffabilis” ascribe the victory to Our Blessed Lady.” However, Haydock’s Commentary says: “She shall crush. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz. the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.” The wording in newadven elevates Mary, whereas Haydock elevates Christ.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Roy5,

I have several concerns about your post.

**1. ** Why would you think the “devil’ is tempting you to respond to all these points”? This statement puzzles me, because you joined a forum, which by its very nature engages us in debate and discussion. I would think receiving multiple responses to your posts would be a good thing. When our beliefs are challenged it pushes us to evaluate the source of our beliefs. Sometimes that strengthens our conviction in our beliefs, and sometimes it forces us to consider that we may be wrong about some things. That has certainly been the case for me.

2. I’m a little confused regarding your source of Biblical interpretation. You are making some statements that clearly contradict the Gospel.

I will just comment on one:

To believe there are no “chosen people” is to dismiss salvation history, along with the Old and New Covenant with God.
**
3. ** Why do you believe there are no chosen people?

A few responses

 1.Obviously, I spoke of the 'devil' (in quotes) with tongue-in-cheek. I believe in the existence of evil, certainly, but tend to dismiss the usual depictions of Satan. . . .

Roy5,

Your posts about your beliefs and experiences of meeting Popes and visiting monasteries is extensive and interesting; but this does not provide a source for your beliefs. What is the source of your Biblical interpretation?

Through what lens are you viewing Christianity? It’s very difficult to tell.

I feel the right and even responsibility to weigh things and decide what seems to me reasonable and what I can’t believe.

I agree that Christ taught us to love one another; and I’m all for seeking God’s truth, testing things, and using our intellect. The problem is that very little of what you write is consistent with orthodox Christianity. We are living in a culture where anything and everything is “O.K.” People pick and choose what they want to believe. God becomes whatever you want Him to be. If you are looking for the “devil,” as you call him, you will find him in such deceptive teachings. I say this out of concern.

Anna

 

[Pitcharan]

Pitcharan,
…I can’t say that I understand the violence depicted in the O.T. Perhaps men attributed things to God that were not from Him. Perhaps God did order such destruction. I don’t know. It’s a tough subject.

Anna

No Anna, you can’t give up saying it’s a tough subject. If our purpose is to know Him, love Him and serve Him, then He will lead us to understand and counter the strategies of the Enemy which include

• Causing schisms among humans thro all permutations and combinations of mehods
• Using evil humans to distort scriptures and deceive humans enmasse to believe his evil agenda to be God’s agenda
• Creating perverted deceptive substitutes to replace graces and gifts with disgraces and evil powers
• Perverting Faith into fanaticism
• Blinding people to to the extent of murdering the Messiah and then thro deceit sustain their Faith in corrupted scriptures and hopleless Hope in the coming of the Messiah and thus ensure they remain in darkness

Recall what our Lord foretold “People who murder will believe that they are serving God in doing so”. Did it not happen during OT times (murder of prophets from Abel to Zechariah)? Was not our Lord also a similiar victim? Is it not happening now?

 

[benedictus2]

1. No, I reject the idea of a chosen people, apart from the fact that we are all chosen in a sense.

Then you reject the Bible which means you reject Christianity.

Jesus certainly lifted up the Samaritans in the Gospels and they were despised as ‘unclean’ by the ancient Hebrews.

Has absolutely zilch to do with whether “chosen people” is true or not. And no Jesus DID NOT lift up the Samaritans. But He did say that the Gospel is to be given to them as well.

My view of God is that the Lord is just, and justice and a chosen people don’t coexist easily.

Only because of your deficient understanding of what “chosen people” means.

1. I’m not totally convinced that the Hebrew people ever were slaves in Egypt. Scholars haven’t found a single piece of evidence that they were there. Read Theophile Meek’s book Hebrew Origins. I certainly have some doubts that Moses turned his rod into a snake, and I can’t imagine God sending an angel to murder the firstborn of every Egyptian family. Etc. Most of the plagues, by the way, can be seen as exaggerated examples of natural occurrences in Egypt,

And we have here in our midst another historical revisionist.

1. Speaking of dualism, I find that in some aspects of Christianity. Isn’t that what God vs. Satan is all about?

Were you thinking of the word duEl instead of duAl.