How Do You Know Your Interpretation Is Correct?

[benedictus2]

Actually, the Confessions do reference the D-C’s.

Referencing does not mean that they consider it canonical. Not considering it canonical means it does not belong in the Bible.

So, I’ll place the question to you: where in scripture (including the D-C’s) is there a command or promise or example that we should invoke the saints? I may be one of the easier n-C’s for you to convince on this issue, as by my testemony above.

Did I say that the DCs say we must pray t the saints? If I did then sorry, but that was my error. What was in the DC (2 Mac in particular is praying for the dead - hence the doctrine of purgatory.

He said it didn’t belong on the same level, in his opinion, as was the opinion of many others from Jerome on. He said it was useful to read and study.

But not canonical. Always we go back to this. Do we go with Jerome in the same way that Cajetan insisted on subjugating everyone to Jerome as against the Church? One person as against councils?

 

[Cinette]

I did a quick research on that and you are right, it has been attributed to Luther (even by Lutheran’s themselves) but they cannot pin it definitively to any of Luther’s writings.

However, there is ground for going with the analogy for as E. L. Marshall wrote, which I cited above, because of his nominalism, Luther believed that grace has no ontological status on the soul, hence when God says we are sinless but leaves us sinners.

  Also, I have asked this before, if the point of salvation is to be declared just, why do we need to be sanctified?  Can someone who dies after being declared just go to heaven? If so, what has sanctification got to do with salvation if justification is enough?

The question is, what does this forgiveness of sin mean? Does it mean that your soul is cleansed of sin? But the thing is, justification in the Lutheran sense means that one is merely declared righteous, one is NOT made righteous.

From what you have written, it seems that sanctification has to do with making one righteous, i.e. conforming one to the image of Christ.

How do you tie in, this forgiveness of sin with the cleansing of soul if grace has no capacity to change nature?

If sanctification is to be conformed to the image of Christ, then:

• What does this being conformed to the image of Christ mean?
• Does it matter? Will you get to heaven anyway whether you get conformed to the image of Christ or not?
• Say a person is justified (that is merely declared just but remains unjust inside because sanctification has not yet taken place) and dies, does this mean that at this point all his sins are forgiven because of the mere fact that he has been declared just?
• So why is there this sort of dichotomy. If one is declared just but lives for a while, one needs to be sanctified. If one is declared just and dies, then all of a sudden he is sanctified by the mere fact that he died? Or maybe not? What does “his sins are forgiven mean”? Does it mean that once forgiven you are already sanctified?
• If sanctification is not necessary for salvation since justification is enough to get you into heaven, therefore the whole point of sanctification is just for this earth?
  
  So let me get this straight, a man is declared just even though he remains unjust. Then he dies and at that moment all of a sudden he is sanctified? So why bother going through the process of sanctification while you are still alive if at the moment of death you are sanctified just like that?

*Gosh Benedictus you are so right. I had not seen this posting from Jon because I came on the thread late and skipped some pages as it was taking me too long to read it all!

You make absolute sense.

Cinette*

 

[JonNC]

By removing them from the Canon, he removed them from the Bible because the Bible is the canon of scriptures. It would be like saying the appendices are part of the Bible or the prefaces and side notes are part of the Bible. Yes, they are in the Bible but we don’t say that they are part of the Bible.

When we speak of the Bible we mean the canon of the Scriptures.

That is why, a few years after him, his followers had not problem completely taking it out the binding.

His followers? The German Lutheran Bible continues to have them. That American Lutherans do not is, I believe, a clear mistake. I don’t believe that he would approve.

Again, with 20-20 hindsight, some criticize Luther for doing exactly what many before Trent in the Catholic Church did, and were allowed to do, question the canonicity of the dueterocanon.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=benedictus2;6860412
However, there is ground for going with the analogy for as E. L. Marshall wrote, which I cited above, because of his nominalism, Luther believed that grace has no ontological status on the soul, hence when God says we are sinless but leaves us sinners.
And infusion claims we are sinless? Of course not.

Also, I have asked this before, if the point of salvation is to be declared just, why do we need to be sanctified? Can someone who dies after being declared just go to heaven? If so, what has sanctification got to do with salvation if justification is enough?

And what are the commands of Christ? That we remain in our sins, that grace may abound? Of course not. Christ commands us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. He gave us the Holy Spirit, word and sacrament, that we may by further sanctified. We do this because we are commanded to.

The question is, what does this forgiveness of sin mean? Does it mean that your soul is cleansed of sin? But the thing is, justification in the Lutheran sense means that one is merely declared righteous, one is NOT made righteous.

When? When are we actually righteous? If infused righteousness means we are righteous, why then is there need for sanctification? If one is already righteous, then the sacraments mean little, because one is already righteous.
When will your soul be cleansed of sin, Cory?

From what you have written, it seems that sanctification has to do with making one righteous, i.e. conforming one to the image of Christ.

How do you tie in, this forgiveness of sin with the cleansing of soul if grace has no capacity to change nature?

Who says grace has no capacity to change one’s nature? Or, are you speaking only of our lives on earth?

Does it matter? Will you get to heaven anyway whether you get conformed to the image of Christ or not?

Why do you continue to mischaracterize Lutheran teaching? Your intent seems to be to relate Lutheran teaching to Calvinism. I have presented ample evidence that Lutherans believe that we are required to live by His commands.
We get to heaven by grace through faith in Christ. We respond to that grace by trying to live as He would have us live. Consistent refusal to do so, without repentence, is evidence of a dead faith, which does not save.
Please show a Lutheran source that portrays what we believe supports your interpretation of what we believe.

Say a person is justified (that is **merely declared **

just but remains unjust inside because sanctification has not yet taken place) and dies, does this mean that at this point all his sins are forgiven because of the mere fact that he has been declared just?
Merely declared. You make God declaring something sound like a nothing. If God declares I am righteous in His sight, is it not so? Is that not good enough for Him? Should it not be good enough for me? If you choose to say you are righteous, and I choose to say, God declares me righteous, which of us is not righteous in God’s eyes?

So why is there this sort of dichotomy. If one is declared just but lives for a while, one needs to be sanctified. If one is declared just and dies, then all of a sudden he is sanctified by the mere fact that he died?

Or maybe not?
I would agree with you, since that is not what we teach.

What does “his sins are forgiven mean”? Does it mean that once forgiven you are already sanctified?
If sanctification is not necessary for salvation since justification is enough to get you into heaven, therefore the whole point of sanctification is just for this earth?

Show me where Lutherans say sanctification is not necessary. I have no need to defend something I do not believe.
“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” Luther

Luther did not teach, nor do Lutherans belief, what you are contending here.

So let me get this straight, a man is declared just even though he remains unjust. Then he dies and at that moment all of a sudden he is sanctified? So why bother going through the process of sanctification while you are still alive if at the moment of death you are sanctified just like that?

Is because Christ commanded it a good enough reason?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=benedictus2;6860445
Did I say that the DCs say we must pray to the saints? If I did then sorry, but that was my error. What was in the DC (2 Mac in particular is praying for the dead - hence the doctrine of purgatory.

Lutherans pray for the dead, as well. But this wasn’t the question, my question was where do I find in scripture a command, a promise, or an example of invoking the Blessed Virgin or the saints? I am not saying it is idolatry. I’m not saying it is necessarily wrong or even dangerous. I’m not even condemning the practice, as there may be implicit evidence that the Church Triumphant may have awareness of the events here. I am simply looking for a command, a promise, or an example from scripture that I should be required to believe it that one should or can invoke them for intercessory prayer.

But not canonical. Always we go back to this. Do we go with Jerome in the same way that Cajetan insisted on subjugating everyone to Jerome as against the Church? One person as against councils?

We come back to this because it was the privilege of every Catholic, prior to Trent, to question the canonicity of the D-C’s. All I am saying is Luther ought to be given the same treatment on the issue as Cajetan or Jerome to practice his privilege, even if one disagrees with his POV.

Which of the seven ecumenical councils of the early Church declared the canon?

Jon

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hi Cinette,
No real theological differences - some small disagreements? I hear this often - usually from Catholics, but rarely from Orthodox - and it always leaves me perplexed. You mean in a 1,000 years you haven’t been able to overcome some minor disagreements, even though there are no real theological differences?

There are disagreements between our Churches on the Primacy of Rome, and there is difference between some of the Orthodox Churches’ views of Original Sin and ours (though the Oriental Churches’ views are compatible with ours). Beyond these two points of conflict, there really is very little difference.

Key reasons why these difficulties have not been overcome are political/historical. There was a lot of bad feeling between our Churches during much of the last millennium, especially after the Fourth Crusade, when Catholic crusaders brutally ransacked the capital of the Orthodox world, Constantinople. The heads of the Catholic and Orthodox worlds actually successfully made agreements resolving key differences in the mid-15th century, recreating the unity of the past, just a few years before the Ottomans conquered Constantinople. There were a lot of Orthodox that were angered by the agreements between the Roman and Orthodox leaders, but nonetheless, their agreements were real resolutions to the schism. Unfortunately, the Ottomans conquered Constantinople almost immediately after and began appointing the Orthodox patriarchs themselves. The Ottomans wanted to conquer the West as well as the East, so they had no interest in union between the Churches. The Ottomans put Patriarchs in power who would not accept the unity with Rome, so these agreements were shattered.

The Ottomans then funded the Protestant rebels at the same time as making their own invasion of the West. Their financial backing and the distraction they posed major Catholic powers like Charles V of Spain gave the Protestants more room to increase their own strength. The Ottoman political interest was a divided and scattered Christendom. They constantly maneuvered politics to better achieve this, though mercifully, God gave the Catholic League victory over them at the Battle of Lepanto and used the Counter Reformation to heal many of the wounds the Reformation had rent in the Catholic West.

The Ottomans controlled most of the Orthodox world and even into the 20th century, the Turkish parliament selected the chief Orthodox Patriarch.

Through most of Christian history, there weren’t very strong efforts toward ecumenism because of historical hostility and serious political barriers. Pope Leo XIII, at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, initiated the ecumenical effort to reunite Christians. The Soviet Union posed an imposing barrier to the effort toward dialogue throughout most of the 20th century, by suppressing and persecuting the Orthodox Churches. Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Patriarch Kirill and others have been able to make important advances in the ecumenical effort since Vatican II and the fall of the USSR, though. It isn’t fast to heal a thousand years of division and hostility, but God has done much good work in the last few decades. Considered from the viewpoint of Church time and historical time, improvements have been occurring rapidly.

Answer me this: if this is the case, how can even someone like me, who honestly has Catholic leanings, have any confidence that converting to either Church makes sense?

The fact that the Churches have long disagreed on a very small number of things certainly doesn’t justify Protestantism’s division from both. One should prayerfully study the points of contention and decide which Church to join, rather than saying that since they disagree, we have the liberty to break off from both and scatter into thousands of denominations with contradictory doctrines, along with millions of non-denominationals. Protestantism is a mushroom of division, compared to which the divisions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are a speck. Also, neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic Churches justify their divisions or say that they are acceptable. We say that they are unacceptable and that there are real doctrinal errors that have caused these differences, for truth is one and absolute, not relative. Our current popes and patriarchs also, now that historical and political barriers are more cleared out of the way, are now focusing strongly on reestablishing unity again, as they did in the 15th century before the Ottoman invasion.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Continued from the last post . . .

One of the issues in the OP is the fact that the question itself puts each communion in the position of proving it is right by its own say-so.

The CC says it is right because it is infallible (its teaching is protected from error by the Holy Spirit), and since it is infallible, it must be right, and it is infallible because it says it is infallible. Therefore it must be right and infallible because it says so.

We do take it on faith that the Catholic Church is infallible. We also take it on faith that Scripture and Tradition are infallible. We also take it on faith that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the dead, etc. However, while we believe these truths through faith, there is also a lot of darn good logical reasons to believe each of them. Our faith isn’t irrational. The Church’s truth is all confirmed by Scripture and Tradition. The Scripture is confirmed by Church and Tradition, and Tradition is confirmed by Scripture and the Church. The Apostolic Succession of our bishops in union with Rome further guarantees the infallibility of all our teaching. Here are a couple articles about the Apostolic Succession in the Early Church: catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0504sbs.asp

Plus, the Tradition and Scripture provide valuable historical evidence supporting the teaching of the Church. The consistency of the Church’s one revelation throughout history further confirms her infallibility, for if she was fallible, over the course of 2,000 years, we would have accumulated a lot of contradictions. The absence of such contradictions demonstrates the truth of Jesus’ promise that the Church will be filled with the Holy Spirit, that He will be with her now and forever, and that the Gates of Hades will never prevail against her.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Lutherans pray for the dead, as well. But this wasn’t the question, my question was where do I find in scripture a command, a promise, or an example of invoking the Blessed Virgin or the saints? I am not saying it is idolatry. I’m not saying it is necessarily wrong or even dangerous. I’m not even condemning the practice, as there may be implicit evidence that the Church Triumphant may have awareness of the events here. I am simply looking for a command, a promise, or an example from scripture that I should be required to believe it that one should or can invoke them for intercessory prayer.

Well, first of all, from a historical/scriptural vantage point it is clear that the Jews believed in the intercession of saints.

A couple examples of this:

Mark 15:35-36

Some of the bystanders who heard it said, “Look, he is calling Elijah.”
One of them ran, soaked a sponge with wine, put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to take him down.”

2 Maccabees 5:12-16

12: What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13: Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14: And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15: Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Other examples of intercession of saints:

Jeremiah 15:1, Moses and Samuel, while dead, prayed for those on Earth, depending on what scripture translation you use.

Webster’s Bible Translation, and the American Standard Version, among others, read:

Then said the LORD to me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be towards this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

The NIV and some others read:

Then the LORD said to me: "Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!

Rev. 6:9-10, the martyrs pray for justice on the Earth.

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

According to Revelation 20:4-5, the souls of the saints rule over the Earth. They are the people who have risen to be with God. This rise of the soul to unity with God in Paradise is the first resurrection; the resurrection of the body is the second resurrection.

The souls of the saints rule over the Earth in this passage. They don’t do this on their own personal authority but because they are co-heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17), acting in His authority. This ruling the Earth is done through prayer, for all happens according to God’s will and in submission to His will, in Heaven. As the Lord’s Prayer says, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

Revelation 20:4-5

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 2:26-27 repeats this, that those in Heaven rule the nations. It also clarifies that they are rulers over the Earth now, during the time of corruption, and not only in the fulfillment of the Kingdom at the end of time. For it speaks of the saints dashing the nations to pieces, something that would only occur as a result of sin. Hence the saints rule now.

Revelation 2:26-27

To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
‘He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’— just as I have received authority from my Father.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Here are some passages showing that our prayers go to the saints and angels in Heaven, who in turn hand them over to God:

Tobit 12:15

I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One. [see Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4 below]

Revelation 8:3-4

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [see Tobit 12:15 above]

Revelation 5:8-10

8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." And they [the elders] sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth’"

The Scripture encourages us to go to the saints in Heaven:

Heb 12:22-23

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Scripture says we need the saints in the following passages.

All parts of the Body (on Earth and in Heaven) are united, there is to be no division, according to 1 Cor. 12. Indeed, it specifically says we cannot say to any part of the Body, “I do not need you.” Yet Protestants say of the saints, “I do not need you; I just need Jesus.” And thus they sever themselves from part of the Body of Christ, introducing a division. The Body is one, every part contributing to every other part.

1 Corinthians 12

12
4 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.
13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
14
Now the body is not a single part, but many.
15
If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
16
Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
17
If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18
But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
19
If they were all one part, where would the body be?
20
But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."
22
Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,
23
and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,
24
whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,
25
so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.
26
If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
27
5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.

We are called also to rise to perfection as one Body, not divided. We are also called to be united as Jesus (on Earth) was united with His Father (in Heaven). Total unity and akin to that of Christ.

John 17:22-23

22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

The unity between Jesus and the Father was a unity between Heaven and Earth. Jesus wants all His people to share the unity He and His Father have.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Jesus had no problem with speaking to the saints in Heaven, and He is the example for all Christian life.

Matthew 17:1-3

1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

After all, the saints are among the living, not the dead (Mark 12:26-27).

The Apostle John also saw no problem with communicating with the saints in Heaven.

Revelation 5:1-5

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Revelation 7:13-17

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The Old Testament also contains examples of prayers where people directly address the saints in Heaven.

Psalm 103:21

“Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.”

Psalm 148:2

“Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts!”

Then Peter thinks it’s fine to speak directly to the spirit of a dead saint when he’s raising her from the dead, rather than simply praying to God to raise her.

Acts 9:40

Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

And Jesus doing the same thing, speaking to the invisible spirit of someone he’s raising.

Mark 5:41

He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means, “Little girl, I say to you, get up!” ).

Here’s Early Church evidence: piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mary_early_church_miravalle.htm

And some more: catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

 

[JonNC]

=Lief Erikson;6860770]There are disagreements between our Churches on the Primacy of Rome, and there is difference between some of the Orthodox Churches’ views of Original Sin and ours (though the Oriental Churches’ views are compatible with ours). Beyond these two points of conflict, there really is very little difference.

There is also differences regarding Theosis and Transubstantiation. It was not my point to claim that there are lots of differences, but to point out that, after 1,000 years, they are not resolved. And the exent of those differences seem to be viewed differently by the two.

Please forgive me truncating your hisotrical/political background information. It was well presented and informative, and I understand it.

Through most of Christian history, there weren’t very strong efforts toward ecumenism because of historical hostility and serious political barriers. Pope Leo XIII, at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, initiated the ecumenical effort to reunite Christians. The Soviet Union posed an imposing barrier to the effort toward dialogue throughout most of the 20th century, by suppressing and persecuting the Orthodox Churches. Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Patriarch Kirill and others have been able to make important advances in the ecumenical effort since Vatican II and the fall of the USSR, though. It isn’t fast to heal a thousand years of division and hostility, but God has done much good work in the last few decades. Considered from the viewpoint of Church time and historical time, improvements have been occurring rapidly.

Indeed, this is true, and I pray for its continuence. It is also the case between Lutherans and both Rome and Orthodoxy, and we must give thanks to Rome and Vatican II for this change in the way we treat each other, and converse with each other.

The fact that the Churches have long disagreed on a very small number of things certainly doesn’t justify Protestantism’s division from both. One should prayerfully study the points of contention and decide which Church to join, rather than saying that since they disagree, we have the liberty to break off from both and scatter into thousands of denominations with contradictory doctrines, along with millions of non-denominationals.

I’m not saying this at all, and paranthetically virtually none of this spinters have their roots in Lutheranism. All I am saying is that the claim of one true Church cannot be proved by either or any Church in our current state of schism and division. And instead of triumphalist statements of that kind (by any of us), we must recognize that His Church and minstry are only wounded by division and schism, and we must pray the Holy Spirit move His Church Militant toward reconciliation and unity.

Protestantism is a mushroom of division, compared to which the divisions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are a speck.

No argument. Note that the Orthodox will tell you it is all splinters for Rome. And while some may claim that division is necessary, it is still a sin against His call for unity, a sin which we all share

Also, neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic Churches justify their divisions or say that they are acceptable. We say that they are unacceptable and that there are real doctrinal errors that have caused these differences, for truth is one and absolute, not relative.

This is an honest statement that I commend you for, as it recognizes those differences, and doesn’t try to gloss over them.
In addition, as a Lutheran, I believe our division with Rome is also unacceptable.

Our current popes and patriarchs also, now that historical and political barriers are more cleared out of the way, are now focusing strongly on reestablishing unity again, as they did in the 15th century before the Ottoman invasion

I pray daily the Spirit will accomplish this, as well as our reconciliation.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Continued from the last post . . .

We do take it on faith that the Catholic Church is infallible. We also take it on faith that Scripture and Tradition are infallible. We also take it on faith that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the dead, etc. However, while we believe these truths through faith, there is also a lot of darn good logical reasons to believe each of them. Our faith isn’t irrational. The Church’s truth is all confirmed by Scripture and Tradition. The Scripture is confirmed by Church and Tradition, and Tradition is confirmed by Scripture and the Church. The Apostolic Succession of our bishops in union with Rome further guarantees the infallibility of all our teaching. Here are a couple articles about the Apostolic Succession in the Early Church: catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0504sbs.asp

Plus, the Tradition and Scripture provide valuable historical evidence supporting the teaching of the Church. The consistency of the Church’s one revelation throughout history further confirms her infallibility, for if she was fallible, over the course of 2,000 years, we would have accumulated a lot of contradictions. The absence of such contradictions demonstrates the truth of Jesus’ promise that the Church will be filled with the Holy Spirit, that He will be with her now and forever, and that the Gates of Hades will never prevail against her.

But none of this answers the question: how can both Rome on the one hand, and all the patriarchates on the other, claim to be the one true Church? We agreed on your last posts that, while not many, there are doctrinal differences. Which is true?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Well, first of all, from a historical/scriptural vantage point it is clear that the Jews believed in the intercession of saints.

A couple examples of this:

Mark 15:35-36

Some of the bystanders who heard it said, “Look, he is calling Elijah.”
One of them ran, soaked a sponge with wine, put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to take him down.”

2 Maccabees 5:12-16

12: What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13: Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14: And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15: Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Other examples of intercession of saints:

Jeremiah 15:1, Moses and Samuel, while dead, prayed for those on Earth, depending on what scripture translation you use.

Webster’s Bible Translation, and the American Standard Version, among others, read:

Then said the LORD to me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be towards this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

The NIV and some others read:

Then the LORD said to me: "Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!

Rev. 6:9-10, the martyrs pray for justice on the Earth.

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

According to Revelation 20:4-5, the souls of the saints rule over the Earth. They are the people who have risen to be with God. This rise of the soul to unity with God in Paradise is the first resurrection; the resurrection of the body is the second resurrection.

The souls of the saints rule over the Earth in this passage. They don’t do this on their own personal authority but because they are co-heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17), acting in His authority. This ruling the Earth is done through prayer, for all happens according to God’s will and in submission to His will, in Heaven. As the Lord’s Prayer says, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

Revelation 20:4-5

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 2:26-27 repeats this, that those in Heaven rule the nations. It also clarifies that they are rulers over the Earth now, during the time of corruption, and not only in the fulfillment of the Kingdom at the end of time. For it speaks of the saints dashing the nations to pieces, something that would only occur as a result of sin. Hence the saints rule now.

Revelation 2:26-27

To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
‘He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’— just as I have received authority from my Father.

Lutherans do not deny that the saints in Heaven pray for the Church Militant.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Here are some passages showing that our prayers go to the saints and angels in Heaven, who in turn hand them over to God:

Tobit 12:15

I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One. [see Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4 below]

Revelation 8:3-4

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [see Tobit 12:15 above]

Revelation 5:8-10

8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." And they [the elders] sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth’"

The Scripture encourages us to go to the saints in Heaven:

Heb 12:22-23

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Scripture says we need the saints in the following passages.

All parts of the Body (on Earth and in Heaven) are united, there is to be no division, according to 1 Cor. 12. Indeed, it specifically says we cannot say to any part of the Body, “I do not need you.” Yet Protestants say of the saints, “I do not need you; I just need Jesus.” And thus they sever themselves from part of the Body of Christ, introducing a division. The Body is one, every part contributing to every other part.

1 Corinthians 12

12
4 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.
13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
14
Now the body is not a single part, but many.
15
If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
16
Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
17
If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18
But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
19
If they were all one part, where would the body be?
20
But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."
22
Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,
23
and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,
24
whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,
25
so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.
26
If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
27
5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.

We are called also to rise to perfection as one Body, not divided. We are also called to be united as Jesus (on Earth) was united with His Father (in Heaven). Total unity and akin to that of Christ.

John 17:22-23

22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

The unity between Jesus and the Father was a unity between Heaven and Earth. Jesus wants all His people to share the unity He and His Father have.

Nothing to disagree with here, that the saints pray for the Church Militant is not disputed by Lutherans. Nor do we dispute the nature of the Body of Christ, the communion of Saints. But Imhave yet to see a command, or promise, or example of living members of the Church Militant invoking the saints or the Blessed Virgin to pray for us.

Jon

 

[Libertarian_FL]

We don’t need to interprete anything the faith is very simple and its this: Love the Lord God, Love Our Neighbors as Ourselves and Trust in the Sacrifice of Jesus to Purify Us of Sin Before God.

All this other debates and arguements are nothing fighting over that which doesn’t matter. And must I point out the clear obvious points in the gospels Jesus spoke out against legalistic faith, pompous faith, wealth and political power when dealing with faith and rather focus on faith in God - simple and elegant if one looks at it.

So I would say I’m correct since I devolve the message to a simple set of truths that oddly most Christians agree with, anything else doesn’t matter.

 

[JonNC]

=Lief Erikson;6860865]Jesus had no problem with speaking to the saints in Heaven, and He is the example for all Christian life.

Matthew 17:1-3

1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

After all, the saints are among the living, not the dead (Mark 12:26-27).

Did Moses or Elijah respond in some way to the three?

The Apostle John also saw no problem with communicating with the saints in Heaven.

Revelation 5:1-5

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Revelation 7:13-17

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Is this a vision?

The Old Testament also contains examples of prayers where people directly address the saints in Heaven.

Psalm 103:21

“Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.”

Psalm 148:2

“Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts!”

Is this how a Catholic defines intercessory prayer? Do you consider this in keeping with,
“pray for us sinners now, and at the time of our death.”?

Then Peter thinks it’s fine to speak directly to the spirit of a dead saint when he’s raising her from the dead, rather than simply praying to God to raise her.

Acts 9:40

Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

And Jesus doing the same thing, speaking to the invisible spirit of someone he’s raising.

Mark 5:41

He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means, “Little girl, I say to you, get up!” ).

And this?

Here’s Early Church evidence: piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mary_early_church_miravalle.htm

And some more: catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

I will take the time to read these.

Jon

 

[Lief_Erikson]

It was not my point to claim that there are lots of differences, but to point out that, after 1,000 years, they are not resolved . . .

Please forgive me truncating your hisotrical/political background information.

I hope it helps clarify why the divisions remain after 1000 years. The presence of division does not disprove the truth of the Church’s teaching.

On a more pleasant note, the Syriac Orthodox Church and Catholic Church closed their divisions over the nature of Christ during the reign of Pope John Paul II. syrianchurch.org/pzakka/joint_declaration.htm

I look forward to seeing more such fruits of the ecumenical movement. I’m sure that an end to the division over the Nicene Creed is coming too, for this division is also a superficial mistake in language rather than a substantive difference in doctrine.

The real doctrinal differences, though, I believe Jesus is closing.

And instead of triumphalist statements of that kind (by any of us), we must recognize that His Church and minstry are only wounded by division and schism, and we must pray the Holy Spirit move His Church Militant toward reconciliation and unity.

We agree that the Church and ministry are wounded by division and schism and that we should pray for the Spirit to move the Church Militant toward reconciliation and unity. I do this every day. I’m very encouraged that you see this need, too .

The fact that various churches and denominations broke off from the Catholic Church can create uncertainty as to which Church is the true Church, I agree. However, that doesn’t mean that one can’t verify which Church is true through an examination of the available evidence from history, Tradition and the Bible.

And while some may claim that division is necessary, it is still a sin against His call for unity, a sin which we all share

Those that have broken off from the truth (and the true Church) are indeed in error. If their consciences and the Spirit have not alerted them to their error, though, they are not culpable for the sin of division. As for those that remain in full union with the truth (and the true Church), the Church which has never changed and which teaches as Christ intended, these are not in division.

I pray daily the Spirit will accomplish this, as well as our reconciliation.

I am overjoyed to hear that . Praise God! If only all Christians would pray like you, humbly, for unity and reconciliation, how swiftly God would make us one!

JonNC:

But none of this answers the question: how can both Rome on the one hand, and all the patriarchates on the other, claim to be the one true Church? We agreed on your last posts that, while not many, there are doctrinal differences. Which is true?

Before answering your question, I’d like to make a preliminary point. Whether the Orthodox or the Catholic Churches are right, both strongly contradict Protestantism, so if the Catholics were wrong and Orthodox were right, this would do nothing to justify Protestantism. All Christians should be Orthodox or Catholic. Protestantism started in the early 16th century and there is no evidence that it ever existed before then. Therefore none of its various denominations can have the correct (or “original”) interpretation of Scripture that the apostles passed on to the Early Church. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are the only real contenders for having the true interpretation of God’s Word.

Back to your question . . . the Roman Catholic Church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ. The Orthodox are divided in part from this unity, imperfectly united with the Church. You are correct that Rome and the Patriarchs cannot both be right when they all contend to have the fullness of truth, and yet they contradict one another. You will be able to see that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church if you examine the Biblical and Traditional evidence proving the supreme authority of the Papacy.

To get a strong understanding of the evidence supporting the Papacy, I recommend you read, “Peter, Jesus and the Keys.” amazon.com/Jesus-Peter-Keys-Scriptural-Handbook/dp/1882972546

It’s a very inexpensive book if you buy it used. Half of it is devoted to the scriptural evidence supporting the Papacy and the other half is devoted to the evidence from Early Church Tradition.

Here are a few other articles on the Papacy that you might enjoy if you aren’t interested in getting the book (though I really recommend the book).

catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

Knowing how you love the Bible, I feel sure you will also really enjoy this Biblical study on the Church’s teachings about Mary: amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Queen-Scott-Hahn/dp/0385501684

It’s extremely inexpensive if you buy it used.

Both these books will really give you a lot more in-depth an understanding of the Bible’s relationship with the Papacy and the Virgin Mary. There has been so much study done over 2,000 years of Catholic history on this, there are many beautiful things to say .

Seeing as you’re ecumenically minded, this would at least really broaden your understanding to what we believe and why, which, whether you end up agreeing with what is written or not, can only help the cause of Christian unity.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Nothing to disagree with here, that the saints pray for the Church Militant is not disputed by Lutherans.

That’s interesting and very good for me to hear .

But Imhave yet to see a command, or promise, or example of living members of the Church Militant invoking the saints or the Blessed Virgin to pray for us.

Well, I’ll start by bringing back up some of the passages you already looked at, because they show that our prayers go to the saints and through the saints to God. This confirms our practice of directing many of our prayers to the saints and angels, who then offer them to God.
Lief Erikson:

Revelation 8:3-4

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [see Tobit 12:15 above]

Revelation 5:8-10

8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." And they [the elders] sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth’"

The Scripture encourages us to go to the saints in Heaven:

Heb 12:22-23

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 12 suggests invocation when it says we go to the angels and saints in Heaven. Rev. 5:8 is much clearer, saying that the saints and angels receive our prayers.
Lief Erikson:

Did Moses or Elijah respond in some way to the three?

The scripture says that Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus. I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking.

Jon:

Quote:
The Apostle John also saw no problem with communicating with the saints in Heaven.

Revelation 5:1-5

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Revelation 7:13-17

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Is this a vision?

Yes. The saints and angels often have appeared to Christians in dreams or visions.
Lief Erikson:

Quote:
Psalm 103:21

“Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.”

Psalm 148:2

“Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts!”
Is this how a Catholic defines intercessory prayer? Do you consider this in keeping with,
“pray for us sinners now, and at the time of our death.”?

The passages in Revelation, like the scene with the Transfiguration, show saints on Earth and in Heaven communicating with one another without barrier or difficulty. The saints in the Transfiguration told Jesus of His coming trial in Jerusalem (Luke 9:31). The saints in Heaven and on Earth are not separated by some artificial barrier any more than the angels are.

The passages from Psalms show appeals of those on Earth to the saints and angels in Heaven to praise the Lord with them. This is direct invocation and communication, though it isn’t a request for protection or grace, in this case, but rather an appeal for united praise. It certainly suggests that prayers of other kinds can be made too, though. Why could we pray to the angels and saints to praise God with us, but be unable to pray for protection, blessings or union with God as well?

The Jewish belief that we can invoke the saints in Heaven through prayers for protection is demonstrated by their comments at the foot of the Cross about Jesus invoking Elijah (Mark 15:35-36).
Lief Erikson:

Quote:
Then Peter thinks it’s fine to speak directly to the spirit of a dead saint when he’s raising her from the dead, rather than simply praying to God to raise her.

Acts 9:40

Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

And Jesus doing the same thing, speaking to the invisible spirit of someone he’s raising.

Mark 5:41

He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means, “Little girl, I say to you, get up!” ).
And this?

These passages show that we can communicate with the living spirits in Heaven – though not through necromancy, spiritism or sorcery. This is a point where most Protestants disagree with us. Do Lutherans admit that we can converse with or speak to saints in Heaven, whether we can visibly see them or not?

 

[JonNC]

=Lief Erikson;6861067]
The fact that various churches and denominations broke off from the Catholic Church can create uncertainty as to which Church is the true Church, I agree. However, that doesn’t mean that one can’t verify which Church is true through an examination of the available evidence from history, Tradition and the Bible.

However, when more than one institutional Church can claim its origin to Pentecost, using Tradition and the scripture, it becomes difficult. Also, when the western Church went through a time of corruption and abuses, as it did in medieval times, it led to alack of confidence in that institution, a lack of trust which simmered for 450 years, and only now is being dealt with with charity and dialogue. So, we must together explore and dialogue, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and come to a convergence, not a compromise, as to what His truth is.

Those that have broken off from the truth (and the true Church) are indeed in error. If their consciences and the Spirit have not alerted them to their error, though, they are not culpable for the sin of division. As for those that remain in full union with the truth (and the true Church), the Church which has never changed and which teaches as Christ intended, these are not in division.

You can claim that, but even the CCC points to blame on all sides for that division. And again, Orthodixy will challenge the assertion that Rome has not changed its teachings.

I am overjoyed to hear that . Praise God! If only all Christians would pray like you, humbly, for unity and reconciliation, how swiftly God would make us one!

Thank you. We are of one faith in this area, too.

Before answering your question, I’d like to make a preliminary point. Whether the Orthodox or the Catholic Churches are right, both strongly contradict Protestantism, so if the Catholics were wrong and Orthodox were right, this would do nothing to justify Protestantism. All Christians should be Orthodox or Catholic. Protestantism started in the early 16th century and there is no evidence that it ever existed before then. Therefore none of its various denominations can have the correct (or “original”) interpretation of Scripture that the apostles passed on to the Early Church. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are the only real contenders for having the true interpretation of God’s Word.

How can there be 2 contenders for one Truth, and how can one know which is right? And why would one such as I make a change, knowing it might be to the wrong one? Frankly, I’m a western Christian, but there are things Rome has done that prevents me from making that move - universal jurisdiction, and the like.

Back to your question . . . the Roman Catholic Church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ. The Orthodox are divided in part from this unity, imperfectly united with the Church. You are correct that Rome and the Patriarchs cannot both be right when they all contend to have the fullness of truth, and yet they contradict one another. You will be able to see that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church if you examine the Biblical and Traditional evidence proving the supreme authority of the Papacy.

I was hoping for documentation from the early councils. Short of that, I’ll take an agreement between rome and Orthodoxy on the issue. But I’ll continue to look into the issue as well.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

These passages show that we can communicate with the living spirits in Heaven – though not through necromancy, spiritism or sorcery. This is a point where most Protestants disagree with us. Do Lutherans admit that we can converse with or speak to saints in Heaven, whether we can visibly see them or not?

No, as I’ve said, the Confessions claims there is no command, promise, or example of invocation. But there is also no charge of necromancy, etc. What we do say is that the saints pray for us, the Church Militant, but in a general way. They also say there is perhaps no harm, but then no need, either. We would say that the Blessed Virgin prays for us now and at the time of our death without our asking, just as I pray for my friends and relatives whether or not they ask.

For me personally, this sticking point, other than what I’ve related, is whether or not the saints have knowledge of events on earth. It is compounded by Luke 15:7 “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”

For now, I am content with the knowledge that the saints pray for us, and further that I can ask God that the saints pray for me and loved ones, and that He will here their prayers.

Jon