How Do You Know Your Interpretation Is Correct?

[benedictus2]

Hope this doesn’t derail the thread on interpretation.

No this will not derail the thread because it goes to the heart of the thread - which interpretation is correct.

I believe there is presence in the Eucharist. Many non-catholic Christians do too.

Some say that the Eucharist is a memorial, symbol. I wonder if more would say there was true presence if they understood what the “make-up” of that presence was.

God is spirit-we know that he does not have a flesh, bone and blood body. His Word incarnate did have flesh, bone and body, but Jesus is also spirit as a person of the GODHead.

So Jesus speaking of spiritual flesh and blood or human flesh and blood? Jesus explains in John 6.

It is not Jesus’ physical or human body and blood that gives life, but HIS Spiritual Body and Blood. What has come down from heaven.

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.** The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. **64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

“The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing.”

BUT and it is a big but, the Catholic Church has always insisted on the Real Presence. You have explained a symbolic presence.

So the OP remains. Which one of us is correct? How do we determine that?

 

[schaick]

No this will not derail the thread because it goes to the heart of the thread - which interpretation is correct.

BUT and it is a big but, the Catholic Church has always insisted on the Real Presence. You have explained a symbolic presence.

So the OP remains. Which one of us is correct? How do we determine that?

OK good.

Sorry I am not being clear enough. But really how should I be able to explain this any better then the most learned scholars?

So you believe that GOD who is Spirit is simply symbolic? Do you believe our souls are simply symbolic? GOD and our souls are of course not symbolic.

Check out these verses talking about the make-up of the human body and again mentioning spirit:

*1 Corinthians 15
35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.*

I prefer to believe that I am not taking in the flesh and blood of Jesus that is human [which ever part that might be?] and dies, but HIS Spiritual, new and ressurrected Body and Blood. The part of Jesus that is GOD.

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Schaick,

We are on the same page here! Our God is not a god of confusion - and that is for sure! But, that isn’t the idea that I had in mind. So, let me try again.

If, as you say, “There is one interpretation”, then tell me WHICH interpretation is correct?

1.) John 6 - where Jesus tells His listeners that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood if they are to have life in them.

Catholics have always taken this literally and have the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist

Protestants have not taken this literally and believe it is simply a memorial service at best.

Both of these interpretations are opposed to one another - which is correct?

2.) John 20 - where Jesus delegates the Power of God to men to forgive or retain sin.

Catholics have always taken this literally and have the Sacrament of Holy Orders where a man is consecrated a priest and given the delegated Power of God to forgive sin.

Protestants do not believe man can forgive sin and say we are to take our sorrow for sin directly to God.

Both of these interpretations are opposed to one another - which is correct?

I submit that the Catholic Church which traces is origin back to Christ placing Peter as the foundation of Christ’s Church (Matt 16:18) - with Christ being the Cornerstone. (Acts 4:11, Psalms 118:22). The Church with Apostolic Tradition that preceeded the New Testament, The same Church that has 400 years of the writings of the Early Church Fathers that back up the idea that the Eucharist really is the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and that Christ gave men the Power of God to forgive sin - and still teaching these same truths today has the correct interpretaton.

Now, if you think what I have said is in error, then please, tell me why … and, some Scriptural references would be appreciated.

God bless

*Our Catholic Faith is supported by Faith and Reason. They co-exist. Many things can be explained logically. Then there is the mystical which we cannot understand and which we accept on Faith (belief in God + Trust in God). We also have evidence through miracles (which the Church strictly monitors and analyzes before authenticating)…we have the evidence of 2000 years…we see for example how the Church survives heresies, abuse, corruption. We see the sacrifices of holy people. Oh gosh there is SO MUCH EVIDENCE! So much!

*

 

[Cinette]

OK good.

Sorry I am not being clear enough. But really how should I be able to explain this any better then the most learned scholars?

So you believe that GOD who is Spirit is simply symbolic? Do you believe our souls are simply symbolic? GOD and our souls are of course not symbolic.

Check out these verses talking about the make-up of the human body and again mentioning spirit:

1 Corinthians 15
35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I prefer to believe that I am not taking in the flesh and blood of Jesus that is human [which ever part that might be?] and dies, but HIS Spiritual, new and ressurrected Body and Blood. The part of Jesus that is GOD.

*That is not what Jesus said though…He said: “Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them.” “…for my flesh is true food and my blood true drink”. We know this is hard to understand but Jesus did not try to explain it to those who turned their backs - he just reinforced what he said.

Do we understand? No. But we believe because Jesus said it and said it and said it again. If we understood everything we would not need faith.

We have the evidence of 2000 years and I have said it before I think I would have been among the disciples who turned their backs. I would have thought Jesus was cookoo! But then perhaps not - hopefully I would have had the gift of faith and the grace to believe.

Cinette*

 

[benedictus2]

OK good.

Sorry I am not being clear enough. But really how should I be able to explain this any better then the most learned scholars?

So you believe that GOD who is Spirit is simply symbolic? Do you believe our souls are simply symbolic? GOD and our souls are of course not symbolic.

Check out these verses talking about the make-up of the human body and again mentioning spirit:

1 Corinthians 15
35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I prefer to believe that I am not taking in the flesh and blood of Jesus that is human [which ever part that might be?] and dies, but HIS Spiritual, new and ressurrected Body and Blood. The part of Jesus that is GOD.

Again, you miss the point.

The question post by the OP is How do you know your interpretation is correct?

So I asked you: with regards the Eucharist, which of us has the correct interpretation and how do we know. Your reply above does not address this question.

And no I do not believe that God is symbolic. As a matter of fact it is your interpretation that interprets that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is symbolic.

So we go back to the question. How do we know which interpretation is correct. Who are what authority adjudicates to determine the correct interpretation?

 

[schaick]

*That is not what Jesus said though…He said: “Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them.” “…for my flesh is true food and my blood true drink”. We know this is hard to understand but Jesus did not try to explain it to those who turned their backs - he just reinforced what he said.

Do we understand? No. But we believe because Jesus said it and said it and said it again. If we understood everything we would not need faith.

We have the evidence of 2000 years and I have said it before I think I would have been among the disciples who turned their backs. I would have thought Jesus was cookoo! But then perhaps not - hopefully I would have had the gift of faith and the grace to believe.

Cinette*

Catholics choose to believe they ae taking in jesus human body and blood.

I am taking in Jesus spiritual,ressurrected heavenly Body and Blood.

benedictus - How can you say mine is symbolic? **Jesus true Spiritual Body and Blood are in the Eucharist. ** A symbolic celebration would be mimicing the last supper thinking there was nothing in the Eucharist just the wine and bread.

I should have also asked do you believe that Jesus spiritual body, ressurrected body as mentioned in the below verses is symbolic?

1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

 

[onenow1]

Catholics choose to believe they ae taking in jesus human body and blood.

I am taking in Jesus spiritual,ressurrected heavenly Body and Blood.

benedictus - How can you say mine is symbolic? Jesus true Spiritual Body and Blood ."

If I may; Jesus was human and divine, a divine person.

The Catholic Church esposuses, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

Jesus remains intact.

Remember he asked for something to eat after the resurrection.

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

PS Off top Church hope the above helps !

 

[fhansen]

Catholics choose to believe they ae taking in jesus human body and blood.

I am taking in Jesus spiritual,ressurrected heavenly Body and Blood.

benedictus - How can you say mine is symbolic? **Jesus true Spiritual Body and Blood are in the Eucharist. ** A symbolic celebration would be mimicing the last supper thinking there was nothing in the Eucharist just the wine and bread.

I should have also asked do you believe that Jesus spiritual body, ressurrected body as mentioned in the below verses is symbolic?

1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

This is begging the question. The point is, they are two very different interpretations/understanding of Scripture.

 

[Cinette]

Catholics choose to believe they ae taking in jesus human body and blood.

I am taking in Jesus spiritual,ressurrected heavenly Body and Blood.

benedictus - How can you say mine is symbolic? **Jesus true Spiritual Body and Blood are in the Eucharist. ** A symbolic celebration would be mimicing the last supper thinking there was nothing in the Eucharist just the wine and bread.

I should have also asked do you believe that Jesus spiritual body, ressurrected body as mentioned in the below verses is symbolic?

1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

*What is your authority? From where do you get your interpretation? You do not state your religious affiliation.

I choose to follow Christ. As I said, I trust and believe in Him and so I CHOOSE to accept his Word even thought I may not understand. Jesus said nothing about a spiritual body. Would he not have called back the disciples who turned their backs away from him and explain that what he meant was a “spiritual” body? God, our creator can do everything - all of creation is amazing and beyond our understanding. Even scientists reach a point where they have to acknowledge that there are things that cannot be explained by humans.

The intimacy we experience with Christ in the Eucharist is something he wanted and created.

Cinette*

 

[krbray]

benedictus - How can you say mine is symbolic? **Jesus true Spiritual Body and Blood are in the Eucharist. ** A symbolic celebration would be mimicing the last supper thinking there was nothing in the Eucharist just the wine and bread.

I should have also asked do you believe that Jesus spiritual body, ressurrected body as mentioned in the below verses is symbolic?

Whether or not benedictus says yours is symbolic is irrelevant to his question, which you have still not answered.

Symbolic or not, on what authority do you claim that your interpretation of the doctrine of the Eucharist is correct?

 

[schaick]

Whether or not benedictus says yours is symbolic is irrelevant to his question, which you have still not answered.

Symbolic or not, on what authority do you claim that your interpretation of the doctrine of the Eucharist is correct?

GOD’s Word. I gave you an example showing how it works. Bible verses supporting my interpretation as to what exactly Jesus was talking about.

Eventually with every interpretation you have to take all the verses together and see if they match up. My interpretation has backing from other verses in the New Testament.

 

[benedictus2]

GOD’s Word. I gave you an example showing how it works. Bible verses supporting my interpretation as to what exactly Jesus was talking about.

Eventually with every interpretation you have to take all the verses together and see if they match up. My interpretation has backing from other verses in the New Testament.

But unfortunately, in numerous threads about the Eucharist that I have been engaged in, those explanations you have given, I refuted and did not get any decent come backs. And all from the Bible as well.

As a matter of fact I took into account the entire chapter of John 6 and the other Gospels (much more of the Bible than the ones you gave here).
(I will not write it here so as not to derail the thread but if you are interested in the rebuttal I will give you links to my posts).

So let’s suppose I have given you the rebuttal and it also came from the Bible.

The question remains, of both explanations which is correct and who adjudicates.

 

[benedictus2]

Catholics choose to believe they ae taking in jesus human body and blood.

I am taking in Jesus spiritual,ressurrected heavenly Body and Blood.

benedictus - How can you say mine is symbolic? **Jesus true Spiritual Body and Blood are in the Eucharist. **

What do you mean by True Spiritual Body and Blood. What is your understanding of Jesus’s Spiritual Body and Spiritual Blood. Is it real Body and real Blood?If not, then what sort of Body and Blood is it?

A symbolic celebration would be mimicing the last supper thinking there was nothing in the Eucharist just the wine and bread.

I should have also asked do you believe that Jesus spiritual body, ressurrected body as mentioned in the below verses is symbolic?

1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

As to 1 Cor 15- Jesus Body is a glorified Body. It has physical characteristics (He ate, drank, he showed Thomas his wounds) and yet it has the characteristics of pure spirits as well (He went through doors).

John 6 - If you are trying to say here that Jesus is not really present Body, Blood Soul and Divinity in the bread then that is because you cut off the rest of the chapter.

Here Jesus said the Spirit gives life (which is true, for at the consecration it is the Spirit that transforms the bread and wine into the Body and blood of Christ thereby making it the Living Christ). The flesh counts for nothing means that flesh in general counts for nothing without the Spirit that gives it life. But notice the word He used, THE flesh NOT MY flesh.

He could not say my flesh counts for nothing because in a rather long discourse a couple of verses before, He kept hammering that His flesh certainly counted for something because eating His flesh gave eternal life.

But I will leave my explanation there as anything more will certainly derail the thread.

 

[fhansen]

GOD’s Word. I gave you an example showing how it works. Bible verses supporting my interpretation as to what exactly Jesus was talking about.

Eventually with every interpretation you have to take all the verses together and see if they match up. My interpretation has backing from other verses in the New Testament.

So then this sort of makes you the Magisterium. We have a new Pope! Another new one.

 

[Cinette]

GOD’s Word. I gave you an example showing how it works. Bible verses supporting my interpretation as to what exactly Jesus was talking about.

Eventually with every interpretation you have to take all the verses together and see if they match up. My interpretation has backing from other verses in the New Testament.

Schaick - why am I not surprised that you do not respond to my questions? Why am I not surprised that, like many Protestants, you do not mention John 6 where Jesus speaks on the subject? Why?

The point was made that Jesus ate with the Apostles after the resurrection… Any comment?

Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

So then this sort of makes you the Magisterium. We have a new Pope! Another new one.

You are quite wrong there fhansen. There are over 30,000 incumbent Popes and one being inaugurated every month I think. And then you need to multiply that by the number in each congregation and you literally have an incredible number of popes. And yes, all being guided by the Holy Spirit to differing and even opposing conclusions.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by schaick
GOD’s Word. I gave you an example showing how it works. Bible verses supporting my interpretation as to what exactly Jesus was talking about.

Eventually with every interpretation you have to take all the verses together and see if they match up. My interpretation has backing from other verses in the New Testament.

It is this type of belief,which has led to massive divisions and chaos in the non-Catholic world. So tell me schaick,if a Methodist applied the same principles,but had a totally different view from yours,who would have the correct interpretation?

 

[Nicea325]

Schaick - why am I not surprised that you do not respond to my questions? Why am I not surprised that, like many Protestants, you do not mention John 6 where Jesus speaks on the subject? Why?

The point was made that Jesus ate with the Apostles after the resurrection… Any comment?

Cinette

Isn’t it amazing? So many non-Catholic faiths believe Jesus is God:
Alpha & Omega
Eternal
Incarnated into man
Lived among fallen creatures (humanity)
Healed the blind
Exorcised demons
Walked on water
Rasied the dead
Resurrected from the dead
Ascended into Heaven

But…

It is totally IMPOSSIBLE for Him to give His Body,Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist? It is only symbolic? How arrogant of mere creatures telling God what He is not capable of doing!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Nicea325,

You know … I have noticed that, too!

It is just totally outrageous… and for the Solo Scriptura, this must really be a bitter pill - with John 6 having over twenty references to Christ being the Bread come down from heaven - the New Mana - and we are required to eat His Flesh if we are to have life … and this is just dismissed with the misapplication of “…the spirit gives life…”!!

Of course, there is a practical side to side (at least on this side of this mortal coil) you see, to consecrate the common bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ - you need an ordained priest. And, since these guys abandoned the Church founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16:18) well, we had better come up with something else! And, they did! There answer is - it doesn’t exist except as a memory!

What is really sad is the ones who have been deceived with this foolish and self-serving interpretation.

God bless

Isn’t it amazing? So many non-Catholic faiths believe Jesus is God:
Alpha & Omega
Eternal
Incarnated into man
Lived among fallen creatures (humanity)
Healed the blind
Exorcised demons
Walked on water
Rasied the dead
Resurrected from the dead
Ascended into Heaven

But…

It is totally IMPOSSIBLE for Him to give His Body,Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist? It is only symbolic? How arrogant of mere creatures telling God what He is not capable of doing!

 

[schaick]

If I may; Jesus was human and divine, a divine person.

The Catholic Church esposuses, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

Jesus remains intact.

Remember he asked for something to eat after the resurrection.

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

PS Off top Church hope the above helps !

Yes. Jesus did ask for something to eat in HIS resurrected, glorified and immortal body. It may be a material body but somehow it is definately changed. It was no longer perishable.