How do you know your sins are forgiven?

[ltwin]

Well, then where in the Bible does it demonstrate that your interpretation is correct? Where does it show that the common laity or congregation officially or collectively forgave sins and that the practice is of Apostolic origin?

Not precisely, no. But a more interesting question is in the event of a problem with doctrine who overrules or who decides what’s true: the congregation, or the pastor?

Yet, where do you find this principle in the Bible? If churches are essentially autonomous, what authority does an outside authority really have in the affair? And why don’t I find any of these principles in the Bible?

We seem to be veering off the original topic, and I don’t want to derail the thread. I would be happy to discuss these and other subjects in private message or in another thread.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I’d have to do some research to find what actual Pentecostals have written about this verse specifically.

Thank you pm me when you find out - I don’t want to miss learning what you find out

 

[Protos]

Greetings, I am curious about your comment and how Pentecostals relate that with 1 John 5:16-17 “If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one - to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that is not mortal.” Thanks

Interestingly Haydock’s catholic commentary points out this passage cannot be referrign to the catholic conceptions of venial and mortal sin…

“A sin which is not unto death . . . . and life shall be given to him. It is hard to determine what S. John here calls a sin which is not unto death, and a sin which is unto death. The difference cannot be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal; for he says, that if a man pray for his brother who commits a sin that is not unto death, life shall be given to him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin.” (Haydock)

 

[SteveVH]

John 20:23 (and Matthew 18:18) Pentecostals understand as referring to church discipline. Christ has given his disciples on earth discernment and authority through the Holy Spirit to retain the sins of sinners in the church, to pronounce in the name and by the authority of the Lord that they are unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished. Likewise, there is authority to discern when there is true repentance and in the name of the Lord to declare such are forgiven of all their sins.

Any church acting properly in the Spirit may remit or retain sins. For " if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." An offending brother or sister who will not listen to the church is to be regarded as a “Gentile and a tax collector.” Church discipline is not only to be honored by the church congregation but is honored in heaven because discipline is a divinely endorsed function of the church.

Paul also talks about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Christ’s statement presupposes that people will be confessing their sins, otherwise how can the Church either forgive or retain them? Is this practice of confession done in your faith community? If not, then what does this verse really mean to you?

Judging from your statements I think something needs to be clarified. A Catholic priest is not there to pronounce that one is “unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished”. That is God’s job. He is there to offer absolution; to be a minister of God’s mercy. The only time one does not receive absolution is if it is very clear that the person confessing intends to persist in that sin. The most common example in this day and age would be one who confesses that he/she is living with another outside of the bonds of marriage but has no intention of moving out and changing that situation. In such a case the priest cannot offer absolution.

Even then, however, the Church always hopes in God’s mercy and does not limit God’s mercy to the ordinary means of receiving this grace. The Catholic Church has never proclaimed that any particular person is in hell. It regularly proclaims that certain persons have been saved and are in heaven; those are our saints.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

But the Bible doesn’t only say “honor and respect”, it says, “obey your leaders and submit to them.”(Heb 13:17).

Let’s post the whole verse shall we?

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Herein lies the problem: submit. To a person? Oh no, no, no. I’ll submit to a book that I can interpret in a way that I see fit. That way if I don’t like the person leading my congregation I can leave and find another congregation that is more aligned to my views. Or better yet, I can lead my own congregation the way I see fit, because I know exactly how to interpret this book… sigh…

 

[ltwin]

Christ’s statement presupposes that people will be confessing their sins, otherwise how can the Church either forgive or retain them? Is this practice of confession done in your faith community? If not, then what does this verse really mean to you?

One need not confess a sin for the church to know that one is living in persistent, unrepentant sin. Two people shacking up but still acting as if they’ve done nothing wrong, for example, is not a situation where you need a verbal confession. In such a situation, the church is obligated to tell the couple:

1. They are living in sin,
2. No matter how much they ask God, they are not forgiven until they amend their manner of life.

 

[ufamtobie]

For Catholics, EO and some Anglicans we Confess, Receive Absolution and do Penance.

How do the other Christians know that their sins especially the Mortal Sins are forgiven when they confess directly to God?

Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?

Just curious.

SavingGrace,

Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don’t have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests.

EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so.

I know you think I am wrong for say a “copy” and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk.

Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you’re not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us.

We should not ask if “Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?” What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don’t no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not.

And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church.

Ufam Tobie

 

[ltwin]

Let’s post the whole verse shall we?

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Herein lies the problem: submit. To a person? Oh no, no, no. I’ll submit to a book that I can interpret in a way that I see fit. That way if I don’t like the person leading my congregation I can leave and find another congregation that is more aligned to my views. Or better yet, I can lead my own congregation the way I see fit, because I know exactly how to interpret this book… sigh…

I don’t have a problem with submitting to a pastor or other spiritual leaders in any godly thing, and I’ve never met a Protestant pastor teach that they should be ignored.

 

[SteveVH]

One need not confess a sin for the church to know that one is living in persistent, unrepentant sin. Two people shacking up but still acting as if they’ve done nothing wrong, for example, is not a situation where you need a verbal confession. In such a situation, the church is obligated to tell the couple:

1. They are living in sin,
2. No matter how much they ask God, they are not forgiven until they amend their manner of life.

And what about less obvious, personal sins of the flesh; lust, envy, greed? Unless you have ministers who are able to read people’s hearts, no one knows about these sins. They must be confessed in order to be forgiven. So what do you do in that situation?

But lets stick to your comment for a minute. How does your faith community absolve one from their sins? How do they forgive or retain one’s sins? Admonishing someone for the way in which they are living is not the same as forgiving one’s sins or retaining them.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

SavingGrace,

Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don’t have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests.

EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so.

I know you think I am wrong for say a “copy” and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk.

Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you’re not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us.

We should not ask if “Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?” What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don’t no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not.

And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church.

Ufam Tobie

With all due respect, what you write is contrary to current Catholic understanding. You set back ecumenism a 1000 years.

 

[ltwin]

And what about less obvious, personal sins of the flesh; lust, envy, greed? Unless you have ministers who are able to read people’s hearts, no one knows about these sins. They must be confessed in order to be forgiven. So what do you do in that situation?

We confess to God in prayer for any and all sins.

But lets stick to your comment for a minute. How does your faith community absolve one from their sins? How do they forgive or retain one’s sins? Admonishing someone for the way in which they are living is not the same as forgiving one’s sins or retaining them.

By declaring to an unrepentant sinner that they are not forgiven unless they repent. Once repented, declaring that they are forgiven.

 

[SteveVH]

We confess to God in prayer for any and all sins.

Then why did Jesus explicitly give the power to forgive and retain sins to the Church?

By declaring to an unrepentant sinner that they are not forgiven unless they repent. Once repented, declaring that they are forgiven.

But how does one know who is an unrepentant sinner and who is not if people are only confessing their sins to God in private prayer?

 

[ltwin]

Then why did Jesus explicitly give the power to forgive and retain sins to the Church?

Because it is the church who teaches what is and what is not sin. It is the church that must deal with members who continue to live in sin.

But how does one know who is an unrepentant sinner and who is not if people are only confessing their sins to God in private prayer?

Well, if you go to a church that actually cares about pastoral care and the shepherds are doing their jobs, its not the most difficult thing to be informed about people’s personal lives.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I don’t have a problem with submitting to a pastor or other spiritual leaders in any godly thing,

and I’ve never met a Protestant pastor teach that they should be ignored.

LOL

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Because it is the church who teaches what is and what is not sin. It is the church that must deal with members who continue to live in sin.

How does the church retain these sins then? And how does the church forgive these sins?

 

[SteveVH]

Because it is the church who teaches what is and what is not sin. It is the church that must deal with members who continue to live in sin.

But Jesus didn’t say “teach them what is sin and what is not sin”. He said who’s sins you forgive are forgiven and who’s sins you retain are retained". And yes, dealing with members who continue to live in sin is the primary purpose of the Church. We don’t go to Church because we are holy. We go to Church because we are sinners in need of salvation. That includes you and me as well. That is why Christ gave this authority to the Church, so that his mercy could be extended throughout the earth at all times. He didn’t give us this most wonderful sacrament in order to condemn us, but rather to save us.

Well, if you go to a church that actually cares about pastoral care and the shepherds are doing their jobs, its not the most difficult thing to be informed about people’s personal lives.

Really? Who is doing the informing? And who is doing the forgiving? Does your pastor absolve you from your sins? Has he ever said those words to you?

 

[ltwin]

But Jesus didn’t say “teach them what is sin and what is not sin”. He said who’s sins you forgive are forgiven and who’s sins you retain are retained". And yes, dealing with members who continue to live in sin is the primary purpose of the Church. We don’t go to Church because we are holy. We go to Church because we are sinners in need of salvation. That includes you and me as well. That is why Christ gave this authority to the Church, so that his mercy could be extended throughout the earth at all times. He didn’t give us this most wonderful sacrament in order to condemn us, but rather to save us.

I don’t think I ever said anything about condemnation, and if that is all that you will ever take away from any explanation that I give then its best that I just drop out of this conversation altogether.

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t think I ever said anything about condemnation

Originally Posted by Itwin
Christ has given his disciples on earth discernment and authority through the Holy Spirit to retain the sins of sinners in the church, to pronounce in the name and by the authority of the Lord that they are unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished.

and if that is all that you will ever take away from any explanation that I give then its best that I just drop out of this conversation altogether.

Well, that is certainly not all that I have taken away from our conversation. What I am interested in is whether or not you believe that Christ gave the Church the authority to forgive sins. It seems that you do believe this, but when put into practice in your own faith tradition it seems that it is altogether absent.

I’m not trying to pin you down here. I was truly curious, seeing that you do believe that Christ gave this authority, how it is then put into practice. If you can’t answer that question that is fine, but maybe it is something you should think about.

God bless.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I have to hand it to “Itwin”, he’s not near the spectrum as many other fundamentalists are. In fact he may be closer to the Church than even he even knows. At least he considers post-baptism sins as a serious problem and struggle. Many other fundamentalist congregations don’t because of their soteriology.

I will continue to pray for you, sir.

Gandalf the Grey

 

[ltwin]

Christ has given his disciples on earth discernment and authority through the Holy Spirit to retain the sins of sinners in the church, to pronounce in the name and by the authority of the Lord that they are unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished.

That isn’t condemnation. That is church discipline.“For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. ‘Purge the evil person from among you’” (1 Corinthians 5:12-13).

I don’t think people should be kicked out of church. Hearing the word and encountering the conviction of the Holy Spirit is the best thing for people, and no one should be cut off from these means of grace. Yet, those who have been given time to repent of public, notorious sin and still refuse cannot be allowed to fully participate in the life of the church, lest they be upheld in their sin and bring shame upon the entire body of Christ. If they hold offices, they should be removed. If they have responsibilities in the church, they should be relieved. If they take part in Holy Communion, they should be prevented for their own sake and protection.

Well, that is certainly not all that I have taken away from our conversation. What I am interested in is whether or not you believe that Christ gave the Church the authority to forgive sins. It seems that you do believe this, but when put into practice in your own faith tradition it seems that it is altogether absent.

I’m not trying to pin you down here. I was truly curious, seeing that you do believe that Christ gave this authority, how it is then put into practice. If you can’t answer that question that is fine, but maybe it is something you should think about.

I can’t answer the question in the terms in which you frame it because Pentecostals do not put forgiveness and confession in that kind of box.

We believe that confession of sin can be made to God in prayer. Pentecostals see no need to confess to a priest or a pastor, though confession to a person could be appropriate. We are told “confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working” (James 5:16). The church, especially those believers who are spiritual, is called to a ministry of restoration (Galatians 6:1).

The retention of sin could mean telling a person living in known unrepented sin God cannot forgive them and because of this their activities and participation within the church of God is impaired/restricted until such time as repentance is evidenced. Once life is amended, the church can welcome the person back into full participation and fellowship because they are now in a state where forgiveness can be granted.

As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, “Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him” (2 Corinthians 2:5-8). What one person does affects the whole body, and if the church knows about it, it must act. Nothing should be done to condemn, but only to bring back to life and truth.

It could mean pastoral counseling of someone who is racked by continuous guilt over past sins and declaring that God has forgiven them.