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RobinHood:
BAYLONIAN TALMUD(Completed in the 6th Century AD)

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary on the Jewish scriptures(Old Testament). They are a look into what a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They couldn’t deny his miracles so they claim that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact. They also admit that Yeshu (Hebrew for Jesus) was hanged (crucified).

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged…He is going forth to stoned because he has practiced sorcery [admission of His miracles] and enticed Isreal to apostasy.”

(The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a.)

**"…*By this means he was able to work miracles and to persuade the people that he was the son of God foretold by Isaiah. With the aid of Judas, the Sages of the Synagogue, succeeding in capturing Jeschu(Jesus), who was then lead before the Great and Little Sanhedrim, by whom he was condemned to be stoned to death and finally hanged." Such is the story of Christ according to the Jewish Kabbalists …"

*(Baring-Gould, quoting Talmud, treatise Sabbath, folio 104, (S. Baring-Gould, The Counter Gospels, 1874))

From all of these, here are the facts found from secular history, as well as from hostile sources(the Jews).

Fact 1: John the Baptist was real and he foreshadowed the coming of Christ through baptism.

Fact 2: Jesus was killed, but it did not stop the movement from growing out of Judea, where it first took root.

Fact 3: Jesus performed instantaneous miracles.

Fact 4: Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced.

Fact 5: They cast lots for His clothes

Fact 6: Jesus was crucified.

Fact 7: Rejected by Jews

Fact 8: Betrayed by a friend

Would it surprise you that all these facts supported by secular history are also messianic prophecies fulfilled from the Old Testament that were written up to 1000 years before Christ? The odds of fulfilling all of these 8 prophecies (which cannot be controlled by any other hopeful messiah) were calculated to be one chance in one hundred million billion. That number is millions of times greater than the total number of people who’ve ever walked the planet. There is no way a different man in human history can fit this exact description. And only with 8 prophecies. There are a little over 100 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

Now, I challenge you to find another man who’s arrival was proclaimed by another and started a movement in Judea, performed miracles, who’s hands and feet were pierced, where others were casting lots for his clothing while being crucified. All because He was rejected by Jews and betrayed by a friend.

God Bless
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Using prophecy is not convincing to skeptics. The more knowledgeable ones believe that Christian writers knew about prophecies(some of the ones you listed are not messianic prophecies actually) and applied these events to the life of Jesus 30 or 40 years after he died. A very gifted Unitarian I know contends that the first gospel was probably just a midrashic story to convey importance to the life of Christ. It is very similiar to the John Shelby Spong books actually. Anyway, as a Christian, I think we find significance in prophecy but the skeptic never seems to.
Brian
 
You mentioned:

“Using prophecy is not convincing to skeptics. The more knowledgeable ones believe that Christian writers knew about prophecies(some of the ones you listed are not messianic prophecies actually) and applied these events to the life of Jesus 30 or 40 years after he died.”

Could you please refer me to where I can find ‘legitimate’ Messianic Prophecies then?

Did you notice the I only used prophecies that could not be controlled by Jesus or His disciples and were attested to by secular history. It is quite hard to fake that. In any event, I would very much appreciate any sites that mention true(or accepted) Messianic Prophecies.

Thank you in advance.
God Bless
 
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Hadith:
I see that many discussions have broken down into angry discussion. Let me use new tactic.

How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God? Because he said so is about as valid as J. Smith’s saying he was told to become Mormon.

So I ask for you to explain to me how I can know this Jesus was the Son of God.
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And just how do YOU know there is Allah??? What proof do you have that he exists or ever existed??? And who is Mohammed anyway? I’ve never met him. How do I know but that someone made up the whole story about him and it’s no more than a fairy tale? And what about the Koran (sorry if I’ve misspelled it). Of what value is that story that was probably made up like some dime novel?

You see, when the tables are turned, you have no legs to stand on. If you were seriously inquiring of the Christian religion, I could be concerned. But it seems from the many posts from Muslims that I see on this forum, you are only here to stir up trouble and try to make Christians appear as fools. I can only speak for myself, but I do not go onto Muslim forums and try to stir up trouble and insult its members. You have studied your Koran and you have faith in your god and Mohammed. We have studied our Bible and have faith in Yahweh God and in Jesus Christ, our Savior. We could quote you the whole Bible but it would do no good because you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of Yahweh God. Members above quoted historical figures who have written concerning Jesus, and you disregard that. They have talked about fulfilled prophecy and you disregard that. You are like the relative of the rich man in Luke 16 who, while in Hades, wanted Father Abraham to send someone from the dead to the rich man’s relative on earth in order to warn them to repent. Father Abraham said, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.” Nothing anyone on this forum says is going to convince you of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice.

This is a quote that unfortunately I cannot give credit for but:

If I believe in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice and it turns out to be not true, I have lost nothing. If you do not believe in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice and it turns out to BE true, you have lost everything.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

What you are throwing away may be the most important thing in your life. If you ARE seriously interested in listening, perhaps you would listen to the testimony of a Muslim who became Catholic. If so, please go to: www.fisheaters.com/responses.html and over on the right side, click on Muslim to Catholic Part I and II. And if I am mistaken and you really are interested in learning if Jesus is the Son of God, then it is my prayer that you will pray to God and ask Him to show you the truth in a way that you can understand and accept. I will pray for you that Yahweh God will show you the TRUTH, which is Jesus Christ died for YOUR SINS and for those of the whole world.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
If we can agree the Jesus was a man who died on a cross in the manor reported, I suggest you read Psalm 22 (21 in some books).
Peace
CS
 
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RobinHood:
Did you notice the I only used prophecies that could not be controlled by Jesus or His disciples and were attested to by secular history. It is quite hard to fake that. In any event, I would very much appreciate any sites that mention true(or accepted) Messianic Prophecies.
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I think there are some problems here:

Fact 1: John the Baptist was real
Ok, I’ll give you that one.

and he foreshadowed the coming of Christ through baptism.
Hardly a “fact”… And just where does secular history refer to it?

Fact 2: Jesus was killed, but it did not stop the movement from growing out of Judea, where it first took root.
Many movements have spread after a leader died - nothing unique here.

Fact 3: Jesus performed instantaneous miracles.
No, it was reported that Jesus performed miracles - there are no facts involved. Also, it was *reported *that many other Jewish holy men performed similar miracles - nothing unique here.

Fact 4: Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced.
Where is this reported in secular literature?

Fact 5: They cast lots for His clothes
Where is this reported in secular literature?

Fact 6: Jesus was crucified.
This is hardly a unique form of punishment in those times.

Fact 7: Rejected by Jews
He was rejected by a few Jews (hardly the entire race of people) but it seems all his original followers were Jews. That’s not much of a rejection.

Fact 8: Betrayed by a friend
Where is this reported in secular literature?
 
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ChristsSoldier:
If we can agree the Jesus was a man who died on a cross in the manor reported, I suggest you read Psalm 22 (21 in some books).
Peace
CS
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Yes, that is, with little doubt, the model for the story of the crucifixion. So either:

  1. *]The psalm is a prohecy of Jesus’ death. There is no reason to believe this from the psalm, either explicitly or implicitly. In addition, the genre of Jewish prophetic writing did not deal with events in the far future - the prophets were always dealing with calling the people to God’s will in the current situation.
    *]The author of the gospel used the common midrash literary technique of using a story from the past to enhance the description of a current event. No contemporary reader would have assumed this to be literal history.
 
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patg:
and he foreshadowed the coming of Christ through baptism.
Hardly a “fact”… And just where does secular history refer to it?
Josephus the historian says it “…piety towards God, and so to come to baptism…”

Fact 2: Jesus was killed, but it did not stop the movement from growing out of Judea, where it first took root.
Many movements have spread after a leader died - nothing unique here. (Not unique but the combination of all the prophecies is what gives it its weight)

Fact 3: Jesus performed instantaneous miracles.
No, it was reported that Jesus performed miracles - there are no facts involved. Also, it was *reported *that many other Jewish holy men performed similar miracles - nothing unique here.
(This historical fact of performing miracles was quoted from the Acts of Pontius Pilate, written before 37 AD). Not unique, maybe, but the sum of all prophecies is what gives its weight.

Fact 4: Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced.
Where is this reported in secular literature?
(this was taken from the Talmud - a hostile witness "Yeshu(Jesus) was hanged - refering to the crucifixion)
Also from the Acts of Pontius Pilate

Fact 5: They cast lots for His clothes
Where is this reported in secular literature?
See above

Fact 6: Jesus was crucified.
This is hardly a unique form of punishment in those times.
Not unique for romans but the Jewish community would stone blasphemers…isn’t it strange that it was foretold hundreds of years before it was started that the messiah would die hung on a tree (cross) with hands and feet pierced?

Fact 7: Rejected by Jews
He was rejected by a few Jews (hardly the entire race of people) but it seems all his original followers were Jews. That’s not much of a rejection. Again, its the sum of all that’s important here.

Fact 8: Betrayed by a friend
Where is this reported in secular literature? It was reported in the Babylonian Talmud from the Jewish elders and commentators. “…with the aid of Judas…capturing Jeschu(Jesus)”
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Now, I challenge you to find another man who’s arrival was proclaimed by another and started a movement in Judea, performed miracles, who’s hands and feet were pierced, where others were casting lots for his clothing while being crucified. All because He was rejected by Jews and betrayed by a friend.

God Bless
 
ACTS OF PILATE!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Are you serious Robin.
There is no reason to date this within 150 years of Christ…at the earliest…
The Talmud is not secular literature.
 
If I’m incorrect, then I sincerly apologize for my inadvertant information.

Could you (BrianH) guide me in finding a legitimate list of messianic prophecies that I could possibly link to secular info?
Again, I apologize.

God Bless
 
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Hadith:
I see that many discussions have broken down into angry discussion. Let me use new tactic.

How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God? Because he said so is about as valid as J. Smith’s saying he was told to become Mormon.

So I ask for you to explain to me how I can know this Jesus was the Son of God.
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Read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel
 
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patg:
but it was a Christian interviewing Christians, so of course there can only be one outcome.
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No thats why he constantly mentions he was atheist. He set out to prove his wife and her religion wrong. You are not being accurate, sorry.

If you want another atheist then try something by CS Lewis.

and not to mention there was lots written about the Jesus Seminars and the Divinci Code, etc for views of the “other side”. In those no one said the view from Jesus side if you will. So if you apply the logic of well Strobel didnt cover the “other side” it does not wash because none of the others did either.
 
Kitty Chan:
No thats why he constantly mentions he was atheist. He set out to prove his wife and her religion wrong. You are not being accurate, sorry.
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Sorry, but I believe you are inaccurate. Others think so too, as indicated in the following comments from bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm
The Case Against 'The Case for Christ’
A study in Christian apologetics
A review and analysis of The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel, by Scott Bidstrup

*The book is very cleverly crafted. **It is often claimed by the proponents of this book that the author wrote it when he was an atheist, and was undergoing the conversion process. *This is not true. From a careful reading (see the last two paragraphs at the bottom of page 14), he makes it quite clear that he wrote it as a fully committed Christian, “retracing” his spiritual path an indeterminate period of time after the fact. As such, it is yet another ordinary piece of apologetic axe-grinding.

*This is not the product I would expect from someone trying to faithfully recount the details of his conversion, having gone through more than one conversion process myself. Rather, this is precisely the structure that I would expect to see from a “market” book, one written for a specific market by or with a skilled propaganda ghost writer. For example, each part is prefaced with a captivating story, ostensibly drawn from the journalist-author’s “experience,” that is designed to underscore the methods the subsequent chapter uses as being valid. It then proceeds to the interview, bringing up each point to reinforce that “experience.” *

The market Strobel’s book was written for, is clear: it is written for the Christian evangelical market. It is really preaching to the choir; it is so blatantly one-sided that I can’t imagine any thinking skeptic being taken in by it, and I’m sure that Strobel realized that. But he’s not selling the book to skeptics. He’s selling it to Christians who either want to reinforce their faith, or think they’re going to convince their skeptic friends with it.
 
Sorry patg

Look at the direct quote from Stobel in your copy of the book. direct source material is the best.

oh and the one sided arguement does not work so its out. something your quoted author says
 
Sorry for the delay Robin. I was tempted to share most of the links that I have but they are from a “Jesus is not the messiah angle”. Although this list is from Wikipedia, I noticed the content of it is very very very similiar to many Jewish sites. I was trying to get my Rabbi friend to approve the list but he has not emailed me back!!!
While I am a Christian, I do think we have been very guilty of picking verses that have nothing to do with the messiah out of context…which we DO NOT need to do and does us a great diservice when we engage in conversation with our Jewish friends.

I think MOST Jews would agree with most of the list…I understand that substantial differences exist in how the Refrom and Orthodox view the messiah but that would not neccessarily be reflected in these references from the Tanakh:

"The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9) "
 
Kitty Chan:
Sorry patg

Look at the direct quote from Stobel in your copy of the book. direct source material is the best.
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That may be but the essence of my dismissal of the direct source material is its utter failure to honestly engage contemporary critics of (Evangelical) Christian apologetics.

In light of Strobel’s frequent reminders that he used to be a hard-nosed, skeptical journalist, one can skim the table of contents and index to see which critics of Christianity he interviewed. In so doing, one discovers a glaring deficiency in Strobel’s journalism: Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks such individuals in his book. For example, Strobel devotes an entire chapter to his interview of Greg Boyd (an outspoken faultfinder of the Jesus Seminar), yet Strobel never interviewed a single member of the Jesus Seminar itself! Likewise, he repeatedly criticizes Michael Martin, author of Case Against Christianity, but he never bothered to get Martin’s responses to those attacks. This hardly constitutes balanced reporting on Strobel’s part.
 
yet again Patg did the Jesus seminar provide a balanced arguement for Christ??

This is why your arguement does not wash, you cannot define one group with one set of rules and another with a different set of rules.

(One would have to read the findings of the seminar then read the Case for to find out both sides of the issue.)

So to be clear you cannot dismiss the Case for Christ because he was not presenting the “other side” because for example the seminar did not present the other side. same rules, sorry thats the way it works.

oh and ps he WAS the critic against Christ thus why he didnt interview any, he wanted to know how they would defend their religion.
 
Kitty Chan:
yet again Patg did the Jesus seminar provide a balanced arguement for Christ??
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They aren’t arguing for or against Christ, they are pursuing the answer to one simple question. There are two very different focuses here.
This is why your arguement does not wash, you cannot define one group with one set of rules and another with a different set of rules. (One would have to read the findings of the seminar then read the Case for to find out both sides of the issue.)
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Ah, but the Jesus Seminar doesn’t pretend to be a group of hard hitting journalists researching a story. They are searching for the answer to one simple question: "IF one applied standard, scholarly, historical-critical analysis to the gospels, what sayings and deeds could be said to have originated with Jesus?". Its funny how nearly everyone totally ignores that critical “If” and assumes the seminar is out to prove the gospels and Jesus are not significant.
So to be clear you cannot dismiss the Case for Christ because he was not presenting the “other side” because for example the seminar did not present the other side. same rules, sorry thats the way it works.
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Again, you are assuming the seminar is presenting a “side” and is out to persuade us of something - that is very far off the mark. I am sorry you can’t see that the purposes and goals are so very different. The statement of their goal is very important to understanding them.
oh and ps he WAS the critic against Christ thus why he didnt interview any, he wanted to know how they would defend their religion.
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As I said, he is quite good at bashing those he disagrees without giving them any chance to speak. I see he doesn’t even allow himself to speak as a critic. One has to wonder what he is afraid of? I doubt his credentials as a historical-critical scholar are worth mentioning (I’m sure he would mention them if they were…). I think he is just interested in selling books to the choir.
 
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