How do you, personally, assist at the NOM?

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At first, I found it rather amusing to sit back and read the attacks unleashed upon me for saying what I did…and then, after a while, well I just felt rather sorrowful…when I reconsidered my post, I realized that what I said, while to some sounds offensive, it was nothing more than my expressing my opinion and how I truly feel…I think the OF is inferior to the TLM or EF. And then, to read the very uncharitable remarks that were directed at me, was astounding…I did not launch a tirade of insults, I gave an opinion. I think the gang mentality is quite apparent on this forum…and so then, if one does not fall into line with the prescribed way of thinking, does that mean that one is not welcome? Catholic tradition exists, and it is not going to go away…
 
At first, I found it rather amusing to sit back and read the attacks unleashed upon me for saying what I did…and then, after a while, well I just felt rather sorrowful…when I reconsidered my post, I realized that what I said, while to some sounds offensive, it was nothing more than my expressing my opinion and how I truly feel…I think the OF is inferior to the TLM or EF. And then, to read the very uncharitable remarks that were directed at me, was astounding…I did not launch a tirade of insults, I gave an opinion. I think the gang mentality is quite apparent on this forum…and so then, if one does not fall into line with the prescribed way of thinking, does that mean that one is not welcome? Catholic tradition exists, and it is not going to go away…
I very humbly and gratefully submit to “the prescribed way of thinking,” which is the teaching of the Holy Mother Church, namely, that there are two forms of Mass, and both are equally glorifying to God and efficacious to man.

To say that one form is “inferior” is a challenge to Holy Mother Church, headed up by Jesus Christ Himself.

Who are you to raise that challenge to Our Lord?

If you personally find the TLM more edifying, then that’s a different thing and yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and your preference in Mass forms.

But that is not what it sounds like you are saying. In your post quoted above, you clearly say, “I think the OF is inferior to the TLM or EF.”

In other words, you are saying that the Catholic Church is propagating error to allow so many Catholics to languish in an “inferior” Mass form.

And saying this, you expect Catholics to simply sit back and say, “Peace be with you! It’s OK for you to believe that our Church is teaching error.”

I think not. I think that one who hurls such a challenge at the Catholic Church should not be surprised when Catholics “gang up” and defend our Church against such insulting accusations.
 
Are you serious? :bigyikes:

Are you hard of hearing that you would want to read a missal during the celebration of the Holy Mass? If not, then you don’t need a missal.
This is a little harsh. I like to read along as the scriptures are being read. I get more out of it. Before Mass begins I read the teachings and info about each scripture that we are to hear.
 
You seem to refute what others have said to you. Forgive me for what I am about to say, since I agree with them, and have a tendancy to be more blunt.


  1. *]People with attitudes like you are more harmful to the Church than beneficial. If I were a non-Catholic thinking about joining the Church and read your post, it would make me do an immediate about-face.

    *]Your post reeks of pride. Pride is the greatest of sins. Pride is the root of all sin. Pride was the original sin. Even your screen name “piouswoman” reeks of pride. The great Saints have never referred to themselves as holy; rather, they would speak of themselves as the most vile sinner.

    *]The N.O. Mass was given to us by the Magisterium of the Church. For you to attack it as inferior obviously means that you believe the Holy Spirit to no longer be guiding our Church and that the Magisterium in error would give us an “inferior” Mass. Such an attitude shows a pride-filled arrogance and disobedience.

    True holiness consists in obedience, which all great Saints practiced to an heroic degree. I respectfully suggest that you should try it.

  1. Absolutely right on response 👍 👍 …I might add that I have never attended a Mass such as she describes. I’m not saying that there aren’t any but to infer that most NO Masses are this way is so insulting to the many wonderful ones.
 
At first, I found it rather amusing to sit back and read the attacks unleashed upon me for saying what I did…and then, after a while, well I just felt rather sorrowful…when I reconsidered my post, I realized that what I said, while to some sounds offensive, it was nothing more than my expressing my opinion and how I truly feel…I think the OF is inferior to the TLM or EF. And then, to read the very uncharitable remarks that were directed at me, was astounding…I did not launch a tirade of insults, I gave an opinion. I think the gang mentality is quite apparent on this forum…and so then, if one does not fall into line with the prescribed way of thinking, does that mean that one is not welcome? Catholic tradition exists, and it is not going to go away…
Well while you were expressing how you truly feel you did it in such a way as to be rude and offensive to a great majority of Catholics. What did you expect?
 
The N.O. Mass was given to us by the Magisterium of the Church. For you to attack it as inferior obviously means that you believe the Holy Spirit to no longer be guiding our Church and that the Magisterium in error would give us an “inferior” Mass. Such an attitude shows a pride-filled arrogance and disobedience
This seems to imply much that is probably not warranted. “The
Magisterium” did not sit down together and compose the Novus Ordo. Rather, a select group did the work, and the capable authorities promulgated it. To imply that the N.O. is somehow “inspired” as Scripture is inspired is simply untrue. It is protected from error or invalidity (if correctly celebrated) but there is no charism that guarantees that it is “the best” formulation.
 
At first, I found it rather amusing to sit back and read the attacks unleashed upon me for saying what I did…and then, after a while, well I just felt rather sorrowful…when I reconsidered my post, I realized that what I said, while to some sounds offensive, it was nothing more than my expressing my opinion and how I truly feel…I think the OF is inferior to the TLM or EF. And then, to read the very uncharitable remarks that were directed at me, was astounding…I did not launch a tirade of insults, I gave an opinion. I think the gang mentality is quite apparent on this forum…and so then, if one does not fall into line with the prescribed way of thinking, does that mean that one is not welcome? Catholic tradition exists, and it is not going to go away…
You didn’t launch a tirade of insults? Let’s replay, and pay attention this time around:

piouswoman: Why assist at an admittedly inferior Mass? (Insulted the Mass) It (the Novus Ordo) is inferior and there are not two ways of looking at it.(Insulted people who don’t think it inferior) It is very difficult indeed to meditate on the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ whilst in the background there is a sense of irreverence,(Blanket insult of the reverence of the people who attend) with the presider (?) talking in an overly cheery voice (Implied that there is an amount of cheeriness that is irreverent), lots of hugging and kissing,(well, no cheeriness, so of course no hugs, either, we’ll let that pass…) passing out the most Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord without any care (Blanket insult of ministers of the Eucharist, both ordinary and extraordinary) and in the hand without kneeling if desired (Implies she, and not the bishops, is the authority on what is and is not a reverent posture for reception of the Eucharist), singing mundane modern tunes,(OK, you don’t have to like the music, that’s an opinion) sometimes now even dancing,(Finally!!! The use of “sometimes”!!) and every other abuse and novelty under the sun (Oops…we’re back to “every”)…simple really, do you like that which is pleasing to God or that which is pleasing to man?(Comparison of self to others in how pleasing to God one is, and finds others wanting…who could imagine that as a proud or insulting remark?)

Allow me to re-iterate: Most of the responses to your posts have absolutely nothing to do with traditional Catholics or Catholic tradition. Do not throw that red herring up and imply that we’re ganging up on Catholic tradition and those who love it. It is not true. We are taking issue with your posts and your strange insistence on being some sort of Pope Piouswoman I of traditionalists, claiming authority you simply do not have.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but I think that if all you did was post your opinions as if they were opinions, and not something you personally carried off of Sinai, you wouldn’t have these problems.
 
You didn’t launch a tirade of insults? Let’s replay, and pay attention this time around:

piouswoman: Why assist at an admittedly inferior Mass? (Insulted the Mass) It (the Novus Ordo) is inferior and there are not two ways of looking at it.(Insulted people who don’t think it inferior) It is very difficult indeed to meditate on the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ whilst in the background there is a sense of irreverence,(Blanket insult of the reverence of the people who attend) with the presider (?) talking in an overly cheery voice (Implied that there is an amount of cheeriness that is irreverent), lots of hugging and kissing,(well, no cheeriness, so of course no hugs, either, we’ll let that pass…) passing out the most Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord without any care (Blanket insult of ministers of the Eucharist, both ordinary and extraordinary) and in the hand without kneeling if desired (Implies she, and not the bishops, is the authority on what is and is not a reverent posture for reception of the Eucharist), singing mundane modern tunes,(OK, you don’t have to like the music, that’s an opinion) sometimes now even dancing,(Finally!!! The use of “sometimes”!!) and every other abuse and novelty under the sun (Oops…we’re back to “every”)…simple really, do you like that which is pleasing to God or that which is pleasing to man?(Comparison of self to others in how pleasing to God one is, and finds others wanting…who could imagine that as a proud or insulting remark?)

Allow me to re-iterate: Most of the responses to your posts have absolutely nothing to do with traditional Catholics or Catholic tradition. Do not throw that red herring up and imply that we’re ganging up on Catholic tradition and those who love it. It is not true. We are taking issue with your posts and your strange insistence on being some sort of Pope Piouswoman I of traditionalists, claiming authority you simply do not have.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but I think that if all you did was post your opinions as if they were opinions, and not something you personally carried off of Sinai, you wouldn’t have these problems.
Again, MY OPINION: I think it is an inferior Mass…and I am not alone in that thinking.
latin-mass-society.org/2005/novusordo.html
It is not enough to just*** “think” that it is not inferior, you must be able to prove ***that it is not inferior. As Catholics we have a duty to know our faith, not settle for anything less than true doctrine. To have blind obedience and no ability to prove why you have such blind obedience is ignorance defined. The truth is the truth, and you cannot build your own ideas, a sort of fantasy truth, out of wishful thinking, and a petulant refusal to observe facts.
If it is not difficult for you to pray and meditate on the Passion of Our Lord, while being exposed to the silliness and irreverence that goes on in the Novus Ordo then kudos to you, I grew up in the Novus Ordo, I am perfectly qualified to make such a statement grounded on fact and reality.
Mind YOU this…most/all? of my posts are not to your liking, plain and simple. You don’t like what I have to say so you turn it around and insult me….personally insult me…I have yet to make a personal insult or attack on anyone. So tell me, is that part of being Catholic? To make personal attacks and insults? Perhaps you would like it if I changed my screen name? You say “we” this and “we” that as though there is a gang here…is there? Or do you just have a mouse in your pocket?
 
Pope Piouswoman I of traditionalists

Thank you for exhibiting true Catholic charity, Easter Joy.
 
I pay close attention, sing, and pay attention to the readings and such. I also spend a little bit of time in private prayer and focusing on our Eucharistic Lord in the Tabernacle. I also sing a little song in my mind to Jesus at the consecration. 🙂
 
There are several important considerations that have to be addressed here. Let’s look at Sumorum Pontificum (Motu Proprio) of P. Benedict XVI.

Art 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the ‘Lex orandi’ (Law of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite. Nonetheless, the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Bl. John XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same ‘Lex orandi,’ and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church’s Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church’s ‘Lex credendi’ (Law of belief). They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.
  1. The Novus Ordo is the Ordinary Form of the mass. Benedict XVI does not question it or suggest that this is going to change with time.
  2. The Gregorian from is the Extraordinary Form and deserving of respect and support because its ancient usage.
  3. He does not want these to be seen as two separate masses, but two forms of the same Roman Rite.
Also observe in the following paragraph of the Motu Proprio that Benedict authorizes the use of the EF for any day of the year, any priest, except the most important celebration of the liturgical year, the Easter Triduum. The Ordinary Form is used on this the most important liturgical time of the year.

**Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. **

Then there is the case of religious priests for those who attend mass at chapels and oratories run by religious, such as colleges, universities, hospitals, schools or any other institution that belongs to the order and not the diocese. Religious priests may celebrate the EF. However, the Holy Father makes it clear that the Major Superior and the rules of the religious order have the final word on the matter, not the bishop nor we the laity.

At Franciscan University many lay people got into an argument with the Franciscan Friars because the Friars would not celebrate the EF on campus. The Friars explained that their community had decided that it was not necessary for the life of the friars and therefore they were not bound to celebrate it. But the laity at the university did not understand this. They took it to the local bishop who explained that he had no authority over the Major Superior of the Friars, but they thought that they were being lied to or deceived.

Art. 3. Communities of Institutes of consecrated life and of Societies of apostolic life, of either pontifical or diocesan right, wishing to celebrate Mass in accordance with the edition of the Roman Missal promulgated in 1962, for conventual or “community” celebration in their oratories, may do so. If an individual community or an entire Institute or Society wishes to undertake such celebrations often, habitually or permanently, the decision must be taken by the Superiors Major, in accordance with the law and following their own specific decrees and statues.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16SummorumPontificum.htm

Finally we need to look at a paragraph in Benedict’s letter to the bishops regarding the sanctity of both forms.

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.

Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.


To maintain communion with the Church and with each other, priests cannot stop celebrating the OF nor can we deny its value and holiness.

As to the SSPX claims the accopanying letter says the following.

**We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. **

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16SummorumPontificum2.htm

Our Holy Father does not support that the break of the SSPX with the Pope and the Bishops was just the mass, but deeper issues involving fidelity, since others also wanted the return of the Gregorian form, but remained faithful to the Holy Father, the Bishops and the Council.

It is time that we think in terms of practicine the mother of all virtues, which is humility. Without humility, all other virtues are like sand in our hands during a windstorm.

JR 🙂
 
It is not enough to just*** “think” that it is not inferior, you must be able to prove ***that it is not inferior.
Um, I think you have it backwards. YOU are the one claiming it to be inferior, thus the burden of proof is on YOU.

I do not have to disprove your criticism.

And, BTW, Pope Benedict has made it clear that the OF is just that, the ORDINARY FORM, and that it is not inferior.

But then again, maybe you think the Pope is wrong? 🤷
 
piouswoman, I am curious to know your response to JREducation’s post citing various documents proving that the NO is not inferior to TLM.

Thank you.
 
At first, I found it rather amusing to sit back and read the attacks unleashed upon me for saying what I did…and then, after a while, well I just felt rather sorrowful…when I reconsidered my post, I realized that what I said, while to some sounds offensive, it was nothing more than my expressing my opinion and how I truly feel…I think the OF is inferior to the TLM or EF. And then, to read the very uncharitable remarks that were directed at me, was astounding…I did not launch a tirade of insults, I gave an opinion. I think the gang mentality is quite apparent on this forum…and so then, if one does not fall into line with the prescribed way of thinking, does that mean that one is not welcome? Catholic tradition exists, and it is not going to go away…
That’s not what you said! While you would still be wrong, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Here is what you said:
Why assist at an admittedly inferior Mass? It (the Novus Ordo) is inferior and there are not two ways of looking at it. It is very difficult indeed to meditate on the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ whilst in the background there is a sense of irreverence, with the presider (?) talking in an overly cheery voice, lots of hugging and kissing, passing out the most Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord without any care and in the hand without kneeling if desired, singing mundane modern tunes, sometimes now even dancing, and every other abuse and novelty under the sun…simple really, do you like that which is pleasing to God or that which is pleasing to man?
“Admittedly?” NO WAY! That’s nothing more than a canard. Your opinion? Fine, but again that’s not what you said.

And for the record in NO WAY does Catholic “tradition” back-up your viewpoint. People become upset with such remarks because they actually run contrary to what the Church teaches and directs.
 
…Allow me to re-iterate: Most of the responses to your posts have absolutely nothing to do with traditional Catholics or Catholic tradition. Do not throw that red herring up and imply that we’re ganging up on Catholic tradition and those who love it. It is not true. We are taking issue with your posts and your strange insistence on being some sort of Pope Piouswoman I of traditionalists, claiming authority you simply do not have…
Amen.
 
This seems to imply much that is probably not warranted. “The
Magisterium” did not sit down together and compose the Novus Ordo. Rather, a select group did the work, and the capable authorities promulgated it. To imply that the N.O. is somehow “inspired” as Scripture is inspired is simply untrue. It is protected from error or invalidity (if correctly celebrated) but there is no charism that guarantees that it is “the best” formulation.
And to suggest the Catholic Church COULD promulgate a flawed or even inferior form of the Mass would be to ignore that God guides us directly through His Church.
 
Again, MY OPINION: I think it is an inferior Mass…and I am not alone in that thinking.
latin-mass-society.org/2005/novusordo.html
It is not enough to just* “think” **that it is not inferior, you must be able to prove ***that it is not inferior…
Actually the burden of proof is on those who are making the ridiculous claim that the OF is an “inferior” form of the Mass.

(An impossible claim to prove by the way using what the Church has published.)
 
The supreme liturgist of the Church is the Pope. Herein lays the problem. This is one of his roles as Pope. If he says that the EF and the OF are
  1. The same mass in different a form, that’s what it is. The keeper of the keys has control over the car, not the passengers.
  2. Whatever from one prefers is not an issue for the Church, there is no reason to argue or be condescending toward others who have a different preference.
  3. No one has the authority to decide which mass has greater theological value. Even theologians can offer their opinion and commentaries, but that’s what they are. They have no authority to make norms. Only the Holy Father has that authority.
  4. However, everyone has the right to select the form that leads her to greater intimacy with God. In the end, the goal of the Christian life is the union of the soul with the Divine.
  5. The only time that the Church has said that the EF is off limits is at an SSPX chapel. But mass at an SSPX chapel would be off limits if it were in the Ordinary Form as well. The prohibition has nothing to do with the form of the mass or its validity, but with the precarious status of the Society. Let’s keep in mind that the two are different. The mass is the mass and the Society is what’s in trouble.
How do I assist at the Ordinary Form? I assist with the same joy, reverence and enthusiasm as I do at the Extraordinary form. I am aware that the form is going to be different, but that the essence is the same. I am also aware that at the Extraordinary Form the focus is placed on the sacrifice and that at the Ordianry Form the focus is placed on the meal where Christ offers us his life with given up for us.

If I were able to put these two concepts in a Venn Diagram, they overlap. Both reflect on the sacrifice and both include the meal. The difference is where one’s attention is drawn. Regardless, one’s attention is drawn to the Paschal Mystery.

JR 🙂
 
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