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andyklein
Guest
I’m particularly talking about my ultra-atheistic philosopher friends.
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ClearWater
Guest
Well, were I to attempt to convert an atheist, I would draw from arguments from St. Thomas Aquinas’ 5 proofs for the existence of God.
I usually like the one that talks about something being created, being created by something, being created by something…etc., etc…etc…until we finally get back to the “beginning”, where there was something which was UNCREATED. I then say I don’t believe this pattern of created things can go backwards, indefinitely, that there was a time when it began, when something was NOT created. We call that uncreated being, God.
I would then ask them for their explanation of the beginning. I would ask them if they thought this all went back, back, back, indefinitely, without a beginning, just a string of created beings, indefinitely into infinity.
That’d be one argument. A second argument I would use would be about the probability of this all coming the universe all just magically coming together through some explosion. I don’t doubt the explosion. I just find it curious how this explosion made order from chaos, when normally explosions make a terrible mess.
There is a good video to see, “Expelled: Intelligence not allowed” which was an argument as to why we should teach intelligent design in public schools.
It was saying an example of monkeys typing on typewriters, typing long enough, could eventually reproduce the entire works of William Shakespeare. However, what would the probability of that happening actually be, trillions and trillions to one?
Let’s look at this from another angle. Take my computer. What would you say if I said it was NOT created. It simply evolved, all by itself, as if by magic!
Okay, why would you find that idea unplausible? Well, in the same way it is so unlikely that something as complex as a computer simply materialized, by itself, without any intelligent intervention. So, I find it just as unlikely, if not moreso, that something infinitely more complex than a computer, the human body, the universe just “happened”.
Are we simply to believe that if you stick a bunch of chemicals in a jar that eventually, a person will come out of that? This is all due to chance, randomness, accidents, mutations, and serendipity? I find that highly improbably to a point it’d be virtually impossible.
I can see how, with the human body, we need trillions of things coming together with an incredible precision. If just ONE didn’t come together JUST right, NO life. That could be as simple as temperature…gravity, pH, whatever.
I just see God’s footprint everywhere. It’s just too perfect to be accidental.
I usually like the one that talks about something being created, being created by something, being created by something…etc., etc…etc…until we finally get back to the “beginning”, where there was something which was UNCREATED. I then say I don’t believe this pattern of created things can go backwards, indefinitely, that there was a time when it began, when something was NOT created. We call that uncreated being, God.
I would then ask them for their explanation of the beginning. I would ask them if they thought this all went back, back, back, indefinitely, without a beginning, just a string of created beings, indefinitely into infinity.
That’d be one argument. A second argument I would use would be about the probability of this all coming the universe all just magically coming together through some explosion. I don’t doubt the explosion. I just find it curious how this explosion made order from chaos, when normally explosions make a terrible mess.
There is a good video to see, “Expelled: Intelligence not allowed” which was an argument as to why we should teach intelligent design in public schools.
It was saying an example of monkeys typing on typewriters, typing long enough, could eventually reproduce the entire works of William Shakespeare. However, what would the probability of that happening actually be, trillions and trillions to one?
Let’s look at this from another angle. Take my computer. What would you say if I said it was NOT created. It simply evolved, all by itself, as if by magic!
Okay, why would you find that idea unplausible? Well, in the same way it is so unlikely that something as complex as a computer simply materialized, by itself, without any intelligent intervention. So, I find it just as unlikely, if not moreso, that something infinitely more complex than a computer, the human body, the universe just “happened”.
Are we simply to believe that if you stick a bunch of chemicals in a jar that eventually, a person will come out of that? This is all due to chance, randomness, accidents, mutations, and serendipity? I find that highly improbably to a point it’d be virtually impossible.
I can see how, with the human body, we need trillions of things coming together with an incredible precision. If just ONE didn’t come together JUST right, NO life. That could be as simple as temperature…gravity, pH, whatever.
I just see God’s footprint everywhere. It’s just too perfect to be accidental.
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ClearWater
Guest
Some apologists have gone one better than Aquinas, come up now with 20 proofs for the existence of God.
peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
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philv
Guest
Your own lifestyle, and the way Paul did it by using philosophy with the Greeks. Bible-thumping does nothing to an atheist. Aquinas is great. It helps being able to refer to them as you learn to use philosophy.
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cjforJesus
Guest
By prayer and example.
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Solitaire
Guest
I would stay away from the whole creation issue. The proven science behind evolution is in my opinion irrefutable. The argument about the computer is just nonsense! Computers are not living things that are born live and then die, and in the process in some minute way ‘evolve’ The human body didn’t just happen, it has been evolving for a very long time, it’s complexity to a dull/uneducated mind is not evidence or proof of them being created whole.
My brother is an atheist and he would tare all your arguments to shreds. I honestly don’t know how I would approach the matter if I was to try and convert him. I fear if I was to try I would do more damage than good. As I understand it a person has to have an open mind towards religion in order to be open to the possibility of conversion.
A picture jumps to mind: Holman Hunt’s painting, “Jesus Knocking at the Door.”
“Here I stand knocking at the door. If anyone hears me calling and opens the door, I will enter his house and have supper with him, and he with me.” – Revelation 3:20
In a famous 19th century painting depicting this scene from the Book of Revelation, Jesus is portrayed knocking on a door without a doorknob. When the supposed oversight was brought to the attention of the artist – the Englishman Holman Hunt – he assured the questioners that it was no mistake. He said that the door represents our heart, and our heart only has a doorknob on the inside. We alone have the power to open that door and let Jesus in to our hearts.
My brother is an atheist and he would tare all your arguments to shreds. I honestly don’t know how I would approach the matter if I was to try and convert him. I fear if I was to try I would do more damage than good. As I understand it a person has to have an open mind towards religion in order to be open to the possibility of conversion.
A picture jumps to mind: Holman Hunt’s painting, “Jesus Knocking at the Door.”
“Here I stand knocking at the door. If anyone hears me calling and opens the door, I will enter his house and have supper with him, and he with me.” – Revelation 3:20
In a famous 19th century painting depicting this scene from the Book of Revelation, Jesus is portrayed knocking on a door without a doorknob. When the supposed oversight was brought to the attention of the artist – the Englishman Holman Hunt – he assured the questioners that it was no mistake. He said that the door represents our heart, and our heart only has a doorknob on the inside. We alone have the power to open that door and let Jesus in to our hearts.
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josh987654321
Guest
I would first invite them to a game of poker, I would than rig the deck so that I always got a royal flush, than after 5 or 10 royal flushes in a row, when they accuse me of cheating or rigging the deck, Id just say “you believe we got astronomically lucky to exist, that the creation and the fine tuning for life on earth wasn’t rigged, why don’t you believe that I got so lucky? why do you believe I rigged the deck? My 10 royal flushes in a row is more probable than the fine tuning for life on earth, you should know (as richard dawkins says) it happened by chance because as you can see I just got 10 royal flushes in a row.”
Or do the same with loaded dice, because dice might be easier to rig
Thank you for reading
Josh
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JohnMPhilomena
Guest
Very true. However that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try. First you should pray for the person. Also, before (or during) conversations with the person, you should pray to the Holy Spirit to give you the words.
You never know what words you speak that will finally strike them in their heart. My wife tried for 25 years to convert me. She prayed. She put scapulars under the mattress. She offered communions. Nothing worked.
I just didn’t believe. It was too fantastic. Finally she was reading aloud something that St John Vianney had written and it struck me in the heart, and God finally gave me the grace to believe everything. Miracles, angels, bread and wine turning to body and blood. Everything.
In addition to my patrons, I like to pray to St Ambrose (he converted St Augustine), and St Catherine of Alexandria (a king tried to use philosophers to convert her back from Christianity and she ended up converting them!)
Peace,
John
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Lasting_faith
Guest
I would not even try to. God find those who don’t seek God, and He call them as He want, what they do is up to them, but believe me, God give them every chance they can, God want all of us to made it to Heaven, and those with no faith are selected by deeds. Gods love and eternal forgiveness are possible for all of us, some may need to take a longer road, but we have that option.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I believe that’s true. Arguments don’t work.
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PennyinCanada
Guest
You just made my day.
I know people who have prayed for decades (years and rosaries) to our Blessed Mother for the conversion of sinners and peace in this world because of her request at Fatima. They’ve labored in the Lord’s vineyard for a long time. Now that they’ve gone to their rest, may they continue to pray for us!
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Neofight
Guest
No, no, no! Our baptismal promise is to try! Evangelization in the aid of conversion is a command to every baptized Christian from Christ himself!
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bben15
Guest
We teach, not persuade. The Holy Ghost persuades.
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PennyinCanada
Guest
When a soul is hard hearted, you can pray that God knocks him on the head and bangs him to the ground. He handled St. Paul this way and what an amazing apostle he became!
Living a Catholic life confounds the world. Continue on that path and you will either draw people closer (who are more ready to hear the Good News) or for the hard hearted, they will be repelled. It doesn’t always mean talking about God, but in the workplace let’s say, being kind, generous, avoiding gossip and discouraging gossip, being honorable, trustworthy, unselfish. In some workplaces, just avoiding a potty mouth will get you noticed as being different.
Our Blessed Mother at Fatima asked for rosaries and sacrifices for the conversion of sinners and peace in this world. If you haven’t, start that today.
As talk of God can be a huge turn off, you can find a back door. Have you tried some of the wisdom found in the catechism? Let’s say the cardinal virtues. Now there’s something that is never spoken of! These virtues will serve anyone well who wishes to employ them. Have a look and see if a nugget from here can happen into a conversation…
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm
God bless and guide you today.
Living a Catholic life confounds the world. Continue on that path and you will either draw people closer (who are more ready to hear the Good News) or for the hard hearted, they will be repelled. It doesn’t always mean talking about God, but in the workplace let’s say, being kind, generous, avoiding gossip and discouraging gossip, being honorable, trustworthy, unselfish. In some workplaces, just avoiding a potty mouth will get you noticed as being different.
Our Blessed Mother at Fatima asked for rosaries and sacrifices for the conversion of sinners and peace in this world. If you haven’t, start that today.
As talk of God can be a huge turn off, you can find a back door. Have you tried some of the wisdom found in the catechism? Let’s say the cardinal virtues. Now there’s something that is never spoken of! These virtues will serve anyone well who wishes to employ them. Have a look and see if a nugget from here can happen into a conversation…
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm
God bless and guide you today.
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landon13
Guest
Get the book “Answering Atheism” by Trent Horn here on Catholic Answers. It is a wonderful tool that outlines their “facts” and rebuts them. Or, you could read through the ridiculous work of Dr. Richard Dawkins in “The God Delusion” and show them how their only beliefs are based on ridiculing and mocking other peoples beliefs.
Blessings!
Blessings!
J
josh987654321
Guest
I agree.
Pray to God but row for the shore, If you are Catholic/Christian, it means you learnt it from someone somewhere, we are not born Christians, if this were so than there would have been no need for the prophets or God himself (Christ) to have come and educate us.
I wouldn’t advocate Jehovah Witness tactics though.
Thank you for reading
Josh
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josh987654321
Guest
I have not read “Answering Atheism” by Trent Horn (Although I was almost going to get it), I have instead read “Reason for Belief” by Timothy Keller, and C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity” which I have found to be fantastic (main reason for getting them is that there have been many testimonies of those who have put those books down and been converted to theism, namely Christianity), especially in relation to Richard Dawkins’ “God Delusion” how well do do you think Trent Horn’s book goes?
I also read Razi Zacharias’ “End of Reason” which was really good, but I’m afraid alot of his arguments can often times go right over my head, same with William Lane Craig.
I found Timothy Keller and C.S. Lewis to be the best personally so far.
Thank you for reading
Josh
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ynotzap
Guest
We can predispose a person, make him susceptible to receiving the “Good News” St.Paul predisposed the Gentiles by evangelizing. It was the Father who moved first by calling future converts to hear and accept what Paul preached St.Paul was the instrument. We too are instruments of evangelization. No one goes to Jesus unless the Father calls him, and no one goes to the Father except through Jesus. No one will take the credit that belongs to God in Jesus for conversion. Pray that the Father calls the world.
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Captain_America
Guest
I don’t think philosophic argument is the way to go: for many, this is just a constant ping-pong contest, and even when you get the other guy to pause or stop, he figures he’s just resting and getting together the next round.
Never ends.
I think just telling your personal story is enormously engrossing, and involves/envelopes others.
I think emotions count as well as reason, although you must be clear that reason assists in understanding or trying to understand God.
I think I would just say, “OK, at 2 a.m. at night, when you can’t sleep and look at the ceiling and wonder if this is all there is, that’s when you know God is possible.”
Never ends.
I think just telling your personal story is enormously engrossing, and involves/envelopes others.
I think emotions count as well as reason, although you must be clear that reason assists in understanding or trying to understand God.
I think I would just say, “OK, at 2 a.m. at night, when you can’t sleep and look at the ceiling and wonder if this is all there is, that’s when you know God is possible.”
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