How do you pronounce SSPX founder Lefebvre's name?

[jdc209]

Q’est ce qu’on dit “Des Moines”?

I believe it would be pronounced “day mwa” (and again it’s hard to depict.) “S” is not pronounced in “Des” and “Moi” in “Moines” is “mwa” and the following “n” makes it go down kind of? I’m not sure how to describe it. Like in the French pain (bread), a similar nasal vowel for the “n” is produced.

Des Moins = of the monks

But that’s the French pronunciation and not the English one hehe

 

[jdc209]

I had to be amused by this inquiry.

When I (sort of) learned French, the professor very carefully instructed us how to say that particular “re” combination. You basically have to choke on it just a little. And, no, there is no way on earth to compare it to anything in English. It’s a little easier, though not much, to do the little choking thing if you keep the outer edges of your tongue up against your upper teeth in the back. But you still have to very lightly close, or nearly close, your throat for part of it. (Ah! Quanto a dire qual e cosa dura! I know, that’s not French, but I just couldn’t help saying it, because it fits.)

Trying to pronounce "LeFevre reminds me of an old comedy routine in which the comedian (Steve Martin, I think) was going on about the French language and began pronouncing it. That “choking” business became more and more pronounced. He then grabbed his throat and staggered backwards. Then, switching characters, he yelled “He’s dead! He spoke French!”

Anyway, struck me as funny.

Yes the French “r” is a really difficult letter to say. It’s different from the Spanish “r” which is produced at the tip of the tongue, English “r” is produced in the middle, and the French “r” is produced at the back of the tongue, close to the throat.

That’s why certain words are extremely difficult to say: heureusement, heureux

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes the French “r” is a really difficult letter to say. It’s different from the Spanish “r” which is produced at the tip of the tongue, English “r” is produced in the middle, and the French “r” is produced at the back of the tongue, close to the throat.

That’s why certain words are extremely difficult to say: heureusement, heureux

Be careful! You might choke!!!

 

[floresco]

I believe it would be pronounced “day mwa” (and again it’s hard to depict.) “S” is not pronounced in “Des” and “Moi” in “Moines” is “mwa” and the following “n” makes it go down kind of? I’m not sure how to describe it. Like in the French pain (bread), a similar nasal vowel for the “n” is produced.

Des Moins = of the monks

But that’s the French pronunciation and not the English one hehe

You gave the French pronunciation for “des moins” but the city name has an “e” in it.
Because there is an “e” after the “n” the preceeding vowel is not nasalized and the n is pronounced.

The anglicized pronunciation of the city name is “Dee Moyn”

 

[jdc209]

Be careful! You might choke!!!

Hahaha sometimes it does feel like it! French is a dangerous language but you sound cool

 

[jdc209]

You gave the French pronunciation for “des moins” but the city name has an “e” in it.
Because there is an “e” after the “n” the preceeding vowel is not nasalized and the n is pronounced.

The anglicized pronunciation of the city name is “Dee Moyn”

Sorry about that, it’s just when the person asked me, that city came to mind and I never really knew how to spell the city’s name.

 

[Ridgerunner]

When the various parts of the Roman Empire went their own linguistic ways, one has to hand it to the Italians, perhaps most of all, for adapting Latin in a way that can be pronounced. (Besides being melodious, of course) Even Spanish has that very light “th” thing that’s a little hard to do. Hard to know where, exactly, to put the tip of your tongue. And, too, Spanish is a bit too “atonal” to truly suit an English speaker.

I’ll grant, that Italian “rrrrrrr” thing isn’t so easy. Still, I think they made the best linguistic choice. One has this suspicion that the French somehow came to imitate someone with a chronic sinus infection; perhaps Charlemagne or someone. Has any forensic anthropologist disinterred him to see if his remains bear any signs of one? Lots of Kleenex in his coffin or something?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Hahaha sometimes it does feel like it! French is a dangerous language but you sound cool

I agree it sounds cool. I have always been particularly taken with their pronunciation of the name of the city “Rheims”. I has the choking. It has the honking nasal thing. But, (and I know not all Frenchmen do this) it is particularly suited to using that gravelly, growly, throaty sound which many Frenchmen seem to like to use.

Well, I’ll admit it. “Rheims” does not contain that near-spitting sound contained in words like “plutot”. So, it isn’t the perfect French word, though it comes close.

 

[jdc209]

When the various parts of the Roman Empire went their own linguistic ways, one has to hand it to the Italians, perhaps most of all, for adapting Latin in a way that can be pronounced. (Besides being melodious, of course) Even Spanish has that very light “th” thing that’s a little hard to do. Hard to know where, exactly, to put the tip of your tongue. And, too, Spanish is a bit too “atonal” to truly suit an English speaker.

I’ll grant, that Italian “rrrrrrr” thing isn’t so easy. Still, I think they made the best linguistic choice. One has this suspicion that the French somehow came to imitate someone with a chronic sinus infection; perhaps Charlemagne or someone. Has any forensic anthropologist disinterred him to see if his remains bear any signs of one? Lots of Kleenex in his coffin or something?

Is the Spanish light “th” thing you mention, is that the phenomenon called “ceceo” as opposed to seseo? There are many Hispanohablantes of each school, but many have distincion too.

Ceceo (thetheo) = Is when one pronounces Spanish words with “z” and soft “c” as “corathon” (corazon) and “conduthir” (conducir). (S is also said with “th”)

Seseo (seseo) = Is when one pronounces Spanish words with “z” and soft “c” as “corason” (corazon) and “condusir” (conducir).

Distincion = Is when one pronounces Spanish words with z and soft c as “th” while “s” as ssss.

Either extremes, ceceo and seseo, make it difficult to hear the difference when either one pronounces both casa (house) and caza (hunt) according to their rubrics. You’d only be able to understand by hearing the context

 

[Phemie]

You gave the French pronunciation for “des moins” but the city name has an “e” in it.
Because there is an “e” after the “n” the preceeding vowel is not nasalized and the n is pronounced.

The anglicized pronunciation of the city name is “Dee Moyn”

Dai - mwan (that’s dai as in dairy) in French

 

[Phemie]

It is the sound of the second syllable of “elephant” in natural speech (not the way we say it when we are thinking about it.) This sound is called “shwa”.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa

Yes, you’re right, the French ‘e’ very much like the second syllable of elephant, the ‘L’ sound isn’t quite the same though. If you pronounce the ‘le’ in elephant your mouth and tongue behave very differently from the way they do when you say the ‘le’ in ‘le chien’, for example.

Now, any suggestions for the sound of ‘U’?

 

[floresco]

Now, any suggestions for the sound of ‘U’?

There really isn’t an English equivalent. The tongue is in the same position for saying “ee” and the lips are in the position for saying “oo”. Sometimes English speakers can learn it by making the “ee” sound and then moving their lips into position.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, you’re right, the French ‘e’ very much like the second syllable of elephant, the ‘L’ sound isn’t quite the same though. If you pronounce the ‘le’ in elephant your mouth and tongue behave very differently from the way they do when you say the ‘le’ in ‘le chien’, for example.

Now, any suggestions for the sound of ‘U’?

Not immediately, because it’s more fun right now to talk about “le chien”. Reminds me of how, in WWI, the French sometimes referred to the Central Powers as <> Didn’t think too well of either, it appears.

Now, the “u”. I haven’t thought of every French word I know containing the letter “u”, by my general recollection is that it’s not always the same, but often very much like the “umlaut” (sp?) U in German, but without the slight suggestion of an “r” in it that the German letter has in it. Remembering that most French is spoken with the outer edges of the tongue in contact with the upper teeth and a sort of “tunnel” down the center, it is sometimes almost the same as the English “oo”, as in “plutot” or “unis”. But, say, in “bleu” it, in combination with the “e”, is pretty much without English equivalent.

 

[Phemie]

Not immediately, because it’s more fun right now to talk about “le chien”. Reminds me of how, in WWI, the French sometimes referred to the Central Powers as <> Didn’t think too well of either, it appears.

Obviously not.

Now, the “u”. I haven’t thought of every French word I know containing the letter “u”, by my general recollection is that it’s not always the same, but often very much like the “umlaut” (sp?) U in German, but without the slight suggestion of an “r” in it that the German letter has in it.

Remembering that most French is spoken with the outer edges of the tongue in contact with the upper teeth and a sort of “tunnel” down the center, it is sometimes almost the same as the English “oo”, as in “plutot” or “unis”. But, say, in “bleu” it, in combination with the “e”, is pretty much without English equivalent.

Have to say French is my mother tongue so I’ve never had to stop to think of the mechanics of how it’s spoken - until now.

To me the sound of ‘u’ in ‘plutôt’ or ‘unis’ is nothing like the sound of ‘oo’ as in 'BOO!" although that is how I usually hear it spoken by people who have learned French as a second language as adults. For example, the FSL person usually pronounces ‘Beef au jus’, as ‘beef au joo’ and ‘soupe du jour’ as ‘soup doo joor’. That’s far from the way jus and du really sound. Luc & Luke sound very different.

 

[floresco]

Now, the “u”. I haven’t thought of every French word I know containing the letter “u”, by my general recollection is that it’s not always the same, but often very much like the “umlaut” (sp?) U in German, but without the slight suggestion of an “r” in it that the German letter has in it. Remembering that most French is spoken with the outer edges of the tongue in contact with the upper teeth and a sort of “tunnel” down the center, it is sometimes almost the same as the English “oo”, as in “plutot” or “unis”. But, say, in “bleu” it, in combination with the “e”, is pretty much without English equivalent.

The “u” in French is like German umlaut “u”, even in “plutot” and “unis”. The French “ou” is like English “oo” and the French “eu” has no English equivalent.

 

[floresco]

Have to say French is my mother tongue so I’ve never had to stop to think of the mechanics of how it’s spoken - until now.

To me the sound of ‘u’ in ‘plutôt’ or ‘unis’ is nothing like the sound of ‘oo’ as in 'BOO!" although that is how I usually hear it spoken by people who have learned French as a second language as adults. For example, the FSL person usually pronounces ‘Beef au jus’, as ‘beef au joo’ and ‘soupe du jour’ as ‘soup doo joor’. That’s far from the way jus and du really sound. Luc & Luke sound very different.

I majored in linguistics as an undergrad and had a minor in French so, although I don’t speak French especially well, I understand the theoretical stuff. So far in this thread, everything you have written has been right. As I said before, native speakers are often unaware of such things, but you have a very impressive grasp of the linguistics of your language.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I majored in linguistics as an undergrad and had a minor in French so, although I don’t speak French especially well, I understand the theoretical stuff. So far in this thread, everything you have written has been right. As I said before, native speakers are often unaware of such things, but you have a very impressive grasp of the linguistics of your language.

Sacre bleu! C’est difficile!

I’m not sure I did too badly with the pronunciation, though it isn’t always the easiest thing in the world. An odd thing, though. Many years ago, I spent some time on Ste Bart’s. The residents there are French-speaking, but they have been there for 300 years or so, and were all from Normandy. Strange to tell, I could converse with them quite well in French, but could barely eke out a conversation with the French tourists on the island.

It might have been the speed of the conversations, but I don’t think it was. I have sometimes thought that, being from Normandy, long ago, they have perhaps an English influence on their spoken French, (one now perhaps no longer prevalent in France) or perhaps we English speakers have a Norman influence, even in pronunciation, or some of both.

An English speaker can sort of get some sense out of reading something written in German. But the structure is truly different. Some say Dutch is the closest language to English. But having studied French a bit, it has seemed to me that it’s almost more similar to English than it’s different, and may be the closest. Yes, I know, there are those pesky Anglo-Saxon words in English. Still, I’m inclined to think it’s so.

Strange to tell, (and perhaps it’s wrong) but an anthropology person who is very big on linguistics informed me that, notwithstanding English contains very few words of Celtic origin, the structure is fundamentally Celtic, not Germanic. Perhaps it’s not for nothing that the terms “Gallic” and “British” still have currency, notwithstanding that the languages are named after the Germanic Angles and Franks.

 

[Phemie]

Sacre bleu! C’est difficile!

I’m not sure I did too badly with the pronunciation, though it isn’t always the easiest thing in the world. An odd thing, though. Many years ago, I spent some time on Ste Bart’s. The residents there are French-speaking, but they have been there for 300 years or so, and were all from Normandy. Strange to tell, I could converse with them quite well in French, but could barely eke out a conversation with the French tourists on the island.

It might have been the speed of the conversations, but I don’t think it was. I have sometimes thought that, being from Normandy, long ago, they have perhaps an English influence on their spoken French, (one now perhaps no longer prevalent in France) or perhaps we English speakers have a Norman influence, even in pronunciation, or some of both.

There are places in Canada, outside Québec obviously, where the French is more similar to what they spoke in France around 1680 than what is spoken today. Words are used that you might still have found in a Larousse dictionary published in the early 1900s but probably would no longer find today.

I spent a couple of days in one community in Newfoundland where it took me three days to understand what people were saying when they were talking to each other. Because they had little contact with French speaking people outside the area, the French they spoke had not really evolved since they had first settled there 300 years ago. The younger ones who were now going to French schools tended to change their speech when they were talking to an outsider. I’ve also heard people from a community in Nova Scotia who were interviewed on TV and I didn’t understand word one of what they were saying, yet they were apparently speaking French.

My French is more mainstream but because we grew up bilingual my siblings and I will switch from French to English and back again in the same conversation. Because I don’t get to speak French much where I live, I find I now have to search for some words when I’m in conversation. With my brothers when I get to a word I can’t remember I’ll simply use the English word or totally switch to English. I don’t usually do that with other people, conscious of always using proper French away from the family.

 

[mick321]

It’s very difficult to render the sound of French syllables in English. I wracked my brain but just couldn’t come up with anything in English that sounds like ‘u’.

I heard the name “Lefebvre” pronounced several times by SSPX Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais after Mass on Palm Sunday 2010.

He vocalized the word in two syllables: Leh-FEV.

 

[mick321]

Can someone spell it out phonetically? Is it pronounced Le-feb-vray?

I heard the name “Lefebvre” pronounced several times by SSPX Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais after Mass on Palm Sunday 2010.

To my ear, he vocalized the word in two syllables: Leh-FEV.