How do you react?

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UnityofTrinity:
Assume that there’s no such thing as God or meaning of life or meaning of after life, I’ll assume love as a reaction, an emotion of an ordinary human which came from a chemical reaction of the brain. Then what good is there for love? Then if I run out of love for my wife, I’ll assume that I’ll just go out there and have an affair with an another woman.
How does thinking about love as an emotional biochemical reaction erode its importance to humans? Love is a rewarding phenomenal experience, that is important to everyone I know, regardless of what causes it. I see no logical justification for attaching notions of immorality to an alternative cause. 😉
Great answer to “Then what good is there for love?

I’ll answer Trinity’s second point, “Then if I run out of love for my wife, I’ll assume that I’ll just go out there and have an affair with an another woman.

That doesn’t follow. Have you never heard, “Hell hath no furty like a woman scorned.” If your spouse discovers you cheating, you could be headed for a nasty divorce where she tries to destroy the financial estate and keep the kids. Therefore, it’s usually in the husbands best interests to try to rekindle those romantic feelings. Buying flowers every week, jewelry on anniversaries, and hiring a counselor is cost-effective.

It’s only when the romantic relationship is kaput and cannot be rekindled that spouses are faced with complex choices. Is it better to live unsatisfied, divorce, seek a mistress, or have one-night stands–and for the last two cases to tell the spouse or not? Many choose not to divorce for reasons related to finances and child custody. Sometimes they stay to support an ill spouse–and they’re only willing to leave when she gets better.

An underestimated reason people remain in marriages is because they’ve become institutionalized:

*Red: These walls are funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough time passes, you get so you depend on them. That’s institutionalized. *
 
A child is unable to commit evil, and that does not make his love meaningless.
I thought this at one point before I accepted the doctrine of original sin. Of course, I should have known better… of course a child is capable of “committing evil” (i.e., sinning). We’ve all experienced a misbehaving child or two–they’re not demigods.
 
I did not mention sin at all. I don’t care about sin. I am talking about the concept of “love”. Love is a state of mind, an emotion.
Unless one uses it as a verb. I may resent doing X for my parents, but if I go ahead and do it without grumbling, then I have shown love for them in that action.
Of course it must be expressed in action, otherwise it is just an empty word.
See, now you’re back on track! 👍
 
I thought this at one point before I accepted the doctrine of original sin. Of course, I should have known better… of course a child is capable of “committing evil” (i.e., sinning). We’ve all experienced a misbehaving child or two–they’re not demigods.
As I said, I am not interested in “sin”. It is just another Christian concept. How can a one-year-old commit an “evil” act? By soiling his pants? By disobeying the parent’s command? By puking out part of his dinner? Misbehaving is not “evil”.
Unless one uses it as a verb. I may resent doing X for my parents, but if I go ahead and do it without grumbling, then I have shown love for them in that action.
No, you show “obedience”, not love. These words are not synonyms.
See, now you’re back on track! 👍
I have not been “off the track”. I said this all along.
 
As I said, I am not interested in “sin”. It is just another Christian concept.
Not really. As G. K. Chesterton noted, original sin “is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved.” It’s patently obvious that humanity is both wonderful and fearful, so to speak (Ps. 139:14).
How can a one-year-old commit an “evil” act? By soiling his pants? By disobeying the parent’s command? By puking out part of his dinner? Misbehaving is not “evil”.
If you must pursue your line of argument that children have no free will (shudder sorry), answer me this: why do we hold the child responsible for his/her actions? If they had no control at all over anything they thought or did, what a cruel charade the process of rearing children would be!

My position, of course, is that children have free will, just like any other human being on that walks the face of God’s good earth. We’re Catholics, Spock, not hyper-Calvinists. 😛
No, you show “obedience”, not love. These words are not synonyms.
I obey them because I love them. If I hated them, I wouldn’t care.
I have not been “off the track”. I said this all along.
Really? Right after you said love was only an emotional state that overcomes us? How can it be something we decide and something we have no control over simultaneously? Quite a paradox, if you ask me.
 
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Spock:
As I said, I am not interested in “sin”. It is just another Christian concept.
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fons_vitae:
Not really. As G. K. Chesterton noted, original sin “is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved.” It’s patently obvious that humanity is both wonderful and fearful, so to speak (Ps. 139:14).
American Heritage:
Original Sin - In Christian theology, the condition of sin that marks all humans as a result of Adam’s first act of disobedience.
Fons, do you accept Chesterton on faith without material evidence or proof, or do you understand and can provide this proof that original sin exists?

Obviously, your proof should not rely on accepting the bible as true, as that’s not proven, and if it were proven, there would be more in Christian theology that could be proven which would contradict his statement.
 
fons vitae:
Originally Posted by Spock
How can a one-year-old commit an “evil” act? By soiling his pants? By disobeying the parent’s command? By puking out part of his dinner? Misbehaving is not “evil”.

If you must pursue your line of argument that children have no free will (shudder sorry), answer me this: why do we hold the child responsible for his/her actions? If they had no control at all over anything they thought or did, what a cruel charade the process of rearing children would be!
We don’t always hold children responsible for their actions, and often we only hold them partly responsible. We even have a separate, more lenient, legal system setup for these cases. Take a child who draws on your new television set with Crayola crayons. Perhaps your first instinct is to “met out God’s justice” on this child with “free will”, but stop and think for a moment first:
  • A toddler probably doesn’t grasp why their mommy said “Yay!” when they drew on paper but now looks down on them in consternation. The toddler is not responsible for his actions.
  • A young child may know they’re supposed to draw only on their paper but may not appreciate the degree of difference between drawing on their brother’s math homework and drawing on the television set.
  • A teenager is usually old enough to know exactly what they were doing and pay for it.
 
Fons, do you accept Chesterton on faith without material evidence or proof, or do you understand and can provide this proof that original sin exists?

Obviously, your proof should not rely on accepting the bible as true, as that’s not proven, and if it were proven, there would be more in Christian theology that could be proven which would contradict his statement.
I don’t accept him on faith. I accept him because he confirms empirical evidence.

Think about history. Given your handle, “LifeIsAbsurd,” you would no doubt agree with me that humans are capable of some pretty absurd and pretty horrific acts. And yet, despite the utopian dreams of some, it seems oddly unconquerable on our own in this life. (The Catholic would offer numerous remedies for this dilemma, but I digress.) As depressing as it may seem, humans are obviously capable of despicable acts. This capability to choose evil when presented with a choice is often what the theological term “original sin” refers to. You may believe that Adam and all that is ridiculous, but that doesn’t change this obvious tendency in human nature.
 
"fons_vitae:
This capability to choose evil when presented with a choice is often what the theological term “original sin” refers to. You may believe that Adam and all that is ridiculous, but that doesn’t change this obvious tendency in human nature.
So, by original sin you mean: being capable of commiting “evil” acts, provided you exist long enough

If “evil” is defined in a reasonable way I can buy that humanity suffers from your definition of original sin.

Note, being capable of evil acts–that is, having the power to commit them–does not mean desiring to nor ever actually commiting them. It occurs to me that if you define your God as omnipotent (having infinite power) then he is also subject to your definition of original sin–even if he has no desire to commit an evil act and never will commit an evil act.
you would no doubt agree with me that humans are capable of some pretty absurd and pretty horrific acts
Some humans have commited horrific acts. Some humans have not yet been given the right circumstances. Some will never choose to participate in horrific acts.

Unless you cheat and do something like define birth/death as horrific. 😛
 
We don’t always hold children responsible for their actions, and often we only hold them partly responsible.
Thus, there is some responsibility. Thus, there is some choice. Children have free will. I agree. 😃
Perhaps your first instinct is to “met out God’s justice” on this child with “free will”
Nope. I can’t “met[e] out God’s justice,” since I’m not divine. By the way, the whole practice of teaching children right from wrong assumes that children can direct their bodies, minds, etc. toward differing paths. In short, that they have free will. If I lack full knowledge, that doesn’t negate my ability to act unless I can’t move or think or speak.

You’re honestly dead set against this whole idea children having a will of their own, aren’t you? I certainly applaud you for your candor in this matter.
 
s, there is some responsibility. Thus, there is some choice. Children have free will. I agree.
You agree only with yourself, as you ignored the case of the toddler.
You’re honestly dead set against this whole idea children having a will of their own, aren’t you?
I’m not sure what you mean. I noticed you and Spock arguing for/against children being responsible for their actions and I presented my belief that it’s a continuum where they at first are not responsible, then they become partly responsible, and finally become fully responsible. That seems to jive with the law and my experience as a parent.
 
Note, being capable of evil acts–that is, having the power to commit them–does not mean desiring to nor ever actually commiting them. It occurs to me that if you define your God as omnipotent (having infinite power) then he is also subject to your definition of original sin–even if he has no desire to commit an evil act and never will commit an evil act.
Not really. Evil is only a lack of the good. If my car is something “good,” and I crumple up the front end on a storm drain (which happened during the last snowstorm, unfortunately), it now lacks that goodness which was there before. Much in the same way, a good motivation/act/etc. that has been altered, smashed up, and rendered lacking will not be so good anymore. And not-so-good seems… well, “bad.” 🙂

God doesn’t lack anything, though. So how could He be bad, if bad implies lack? 😃
Some humans have commited horrific acts. Some humans have not yet been given the right circumstances. Some will never choose to participate in horrific acts.
“Not yet been given the right circumstances”? So they just might? Sounds like they have at least some free will there…
 
You agree only with yourself, as you ignored the case of the toddler.

I’m not sure what you mean. I noticed you and Spock arguing for/against children being responsible for their actions and I presented my belief that it’s a continuum where they at first are not responsible, then they become partly responsible, and finally become fully responsible. That seems to jive with the law and my experience as a parent.
I think we’re quibbling about what “free will” means. I am only opposed to the idea that children have no free will whatsoever… even if it grows over time (i.e., increases along a continuum), that doesn’t mean that the child has no control at all. Same thing with the toddler… they may have limited free will, but it’s free will nonetheless. And if not the child him/herself, who controls them? Something’s moving that baby, and I’d be curious to know what or whom. / : )
 
Not really. As G. K. Chesterton noted, original sin “is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved.” It’s patently obvious that humanity is both wonderful and fearful, so to speak (Ps. 139:14).
I wonder what kind of a proof he had in mind.
If you must pursue your line of argument that children have no free will (shudder sorry), answer me this: why do we hold the child responsible for his/her actions? If they had no control at all over anything they thought or did, what a cruel charade the process of rearing children would be!
What a huge misunderstanding! Of course children have a limited free will, despite the fact that they cannot evil acts. That is the whole point, that free will does not presuppose “evil”. I am amazed that this is not obvious to you.
I obey them because I love them. If I hated them, I wouldn’t care.
Maybe. Or maybe you would be afraid of the repercussions, and would obey despite your hatred.
Really? Right after you said love was only an emotional state that overcomes us? How can it be something we decide and something we have no control over simultaneously? Quite a paradox, if you ask me.
Do I have to spell it out again? Love itself is an emotion, but to act on that love is volitional. Where is the paradox here? I feel like I am talking to people with seriously limited understanding. Do I have to spell out everything in each post?
 
Do I have to spell it out again? Love itself is an emotion, but to act on that love is volitional. Where is the paradox here? I feel like I am talking to people with seriously limited understanding. Do I have to spell out everything in each post?
Hi again Spock. I came across the paragraph below just today. Since I’m not too good at expressing things well, does the paragraph, and the whole post in its context for that matter, contribute anything as an answer or insight to your original question?

*In one of the two greatest lines of world poetry, Dante bows gently toward “The Love that moves the sun and all the stars.” Many moralists speak of love as the one fundamental and universal moral principle, the golden rule honored in all traditions. But what do we mean by love? In English we are hampered by having but one word for many kinds of loves. In Latin at least five different terms are available for five different loves.

The most general term is amor – the term that Dante used for the force that moves the sun and choreographs the stars in their millennial dance across the skies. Amor means pull, attraction, being driven together. One can use it of Earth’s gravity, the passions that pull the sexes to cohabitate, and “the force that through the green grass drives” (e. e. cummings).

A more limited term is affectus – a term referring to those movements of our feelings that kindle within us admiration for our beloved and a desire to be with her, feelings of compatibility and comfort, feelings that tend to have a longer run than the hotter passions, and yield in daily life a quieter security.

The term dilectio introduces a more restricted notion still, that of a love born of deliberation and reflective choice; it comes from, but intensifies, the root electio (choose) and means a love of commitment: “You are the one I choose to love forever.” That love can be relied upon, because it is deliberate; it follows from a weighing of the consequences. I am not swept off my feet. I mean it. It is the love on which friendship is built.

The term amicitia adds to dilectio the note of mutuality. If (perhaps as a teenager) you have ever loved anyone who did not reciprocate that love, you know the pain caused by the lack of mutuality. All the more, you appreciate the gift of love that someone freely makes when she returns the love you offer. Mutual love – amicitia (friendship) – is far more powerful than any love, save one.

That love is a special form of amicitia, but its origin does not lie in us. We would not dream of pretending to it. We would not know how. It exceeds our powers utterly. It is caritas. It is God’s own love, the love that is the fire of his nature, that in him is so strong it generates another Person, and then their mutual love generates a third. Caritas is the inner action of the Trinity.

Now when we Christians speak of the Trinity, the inner being of our God, we know not whereof we speak. The point we seize upon, however, is that our God has spoken of himself in such a way that we are to imagine him – not as one in eternal solitude, as Plato, Aristotle, and many of the ancients imagined him, but rather as more like a community of love and friendship than like any other phenomenon of our experience. No one has seen God. Strictly, no one knows what he is like. Yet he himself points our minds in these directions: He is to be thought of as a Communion of Divine Persons – radiating his presence throughout creation, calling unworthy human beings to be his friends, and infusing into them his love so that they might love with it. Caritas is our participation in a way of loving not our own. It is our participation – partial, fitful, hesitant, imperfect – in his own loving.

We can even say, in a certain way of speaking, that our Creator’s whole point in making the world was that some of his creatures should share in his love. The Love that moves the sun and all the stars is ours to give to others.

To make us able to share in his love, he had to make us capable of reflection, deliberation, choice, and commitment. He had to make us in his image. He had to make us provident of our own destiny, as he is provident. He had to make us free. Responsible, too. Capable of saying “no.” And capable of evil.* Read the whole context here.

Again, does this contribute anything to your question?

I’m also thinking I’ll also post this in our other discussion of yours here and ask a question there. Thanks for reading my poor attempts at answers.
 
Hi again Spock. I came across the paragraph below just today. Since I’m not too good at expressing things well, does the paragraph, and the whole post in its context for that matter, contribute anything as an answer or insight to your original question?

Again, does this contribute anything to your question?

I’m also thinking I’ll also post this in our other discussion of yours here and ask a question there. Thanks for reading my poor attempts at answers.
You chose the Latin versions, and you could have chosen the Greek one, too (eros, filia, storge, agape). It is very true that the poor word “love” has many meanings, though in recent vernacular it pretty much means an “emotional attachment”.

The so-called “divine love”, “caritas” or “agape” have nothing to do with emotion. They simply describe an act in someone else’s best interest, regardless of the presence or absence of any emotion. I don’t like to call this “love”, because it causes confusion. In everyday language it is not even called “love”, usually it is called “charity”. A much better phrase, in my opinion.

Now, for “charity” (or agape), or helping others in need, people like to emphasise the volitional aspect of it (which does not appear in emotions love - one cannot decide to fall in love with someone else). And here we arrive at another problem. I say that the volitional aspect is completely irrelevant. Why does someone help another who needs help, is not the point. Whether someone could choose to help, or decline to help does not add one iota of “value” to the helping act. If someone helps, it is good, for its own sake.

There is yet another problem with “love”. There are two expressions to consider: “God loves us”, and “we love God”. Obviously the two “love-s” are not the same, they cannot be the same. We cannot act in God’s best interest, it would be nonsense. Out “love” toward God must be an emotion. God’s love toward us is “agape”, which does not invlove emotion.

This was just some clarification.

The actual point of this thread was somewhat different. I am arguing against the idea that “love” presupposes “hate”, that without the ability of doing some evil stuff “love” becomes meaningless.
 
I disagree that love is just an emotion. It can be triggered by certain emotions, but it is certainly not just an emotion, if it is even an emotion at all. All people search for 3 things: Life, Truth and Love. They search for these things in various ways. Admittedly, some are perverse ways and obstruct the main purpose of living.

Love is the only Truth that makes Life worth living.

If you tell me that Love is a mere emotion, then you are telling me that Truth is just an emotion just like Life. You cannot put Love on the same level as happiness, sadness, anger, hatred, contentness, disappointment, etc… and then claim that you are “arguing against the idea that ‘love’ presupposes ‘hate’, that without the ability of doing some evil stuff ‘love’ becomes meaningless.” You are right. Love is not meaningless without evil.

I can hear the debates already. I will defend the position that Love is a reality beyond mere emotion. Love has one meaning when it concerns humanity. (“I love this movie” is completely different so we can forget about that meaningless meaning.) “God’s love for us” means the same as “we love God”. Of course, in our belief, God loves us more than we return because we sin and such. But, it means the same and it is NOT a mere emotion if it is an emotion at all.
 
I disagree that love is just an emotion. It can be triggered by certain emotions, but it is certainly not just an emotion, if it is even an emotion at all. All people search for 3 things: Life, Truth and Love. They search for these things in various ways. Admittedly, some are perverse ways and obstruct the main purpose of living.

Love is the only Truth that makes Life worth living.
Irrefutable! 🙂
 
When your child or grandchild comes to you, hugs you and says: “I love you Dad!”, or “I love you Mom!”.

Let me make a guess (based upon your posts here): “you look at him and think: Bah, that is not love! This is just a biological automaton, which is programmed to say those meaningless words! After all he is incapable of doing anything evil, so his love is worthless!”.

Or, maybe, just maybe, your heart melts, tears come into your eyes and you appeciate the selfless love he displays. No hate in his little heart, just pure love. Nah, cannot be. My first guess is the correct one. Or is it?
Sorry this question is confusing to me today!
 
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