How do you read or interpret John 17:20-23?

[flyonthewall]

I am curious to understand how others understand this passage.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

What exactly is this “oneness” that is being prayed for by Jesus?

 

[Wesley7]

Most like the “oneness” Jesus talked about was unity and ‘being united’ in fellowship with Him.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I am curious to understand how others understand this passage.

Quote:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

What exactly is this “oneness” that is being prayed for by Jesus?

I think that Jesus explains this in v. 23
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This is explained more in Ephesians 4

Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[Irish_Polock]

I am curious to understand how others understand this passage.

What exactly is this “oneness” that is being prayed for by Jesus?

+Jn 17,20. “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe.”5

[2.] For since He was dying for them, and said, that “For their sakes I sanctify Myself,” lest any one should think that He did this for the Apostles only, He added, “Neither pray I for these only, but for them also who believe on Me through their word.” By this again He revived their souls, showing that the disciples should be many. For because He made common what they possessed peculiarly, He comforteth them by showing that they were being made the cause of the salvation of others.

After having thus spoken concerning their salvation, and their being sanctified by faith and the Sacrifice, He afterwards speaketh of concord, and finally closeth his discourse with this, having begun with it and ended6 in it. For at the beginning He saith, “A new commandment I give unto you” (c. 13,34); and here,

+Jn 17,21. “That they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me and I in Thee.”

Here again the “as” doth not denote exact similarity in their case, (for it was not possible for them in so great a degree,) but only as far as was possible for men. Just as when He saith “Be ye merciful, as your Father.” (Luke vi. 36).

But what is, “In Us”?7 In the faith which is on Us. Because nothing so offends all men as divisions, He provideth that they should be one. “What then,” saith some one, “did He effect this?” Certainly He effected it. For all who believe through the Apostles are one, though some from among them were torn away. Nor did this escape His knowledge, He evenforetold it, and showed that it proceeded from men’s slack-mindedness.

“That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.”

As He said in the beginning, “By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye love one another,” And how should they hence believe? “Because,” He saith, “Thou art a God of peace.” If therefore they observe the same as those of whom they have learnt, their hearers shall know the teacher by the disciples, but if they quarrel, men shall deny that they are the disciples of a God of peace, and will not allow that I, not being peaceable, have been sent from Thee. Seest thou how, unto the end, He proveth His unanimity with the Father?

+Jn 17,22. “And the glory which Thou gavest Me, I have given them.”8

That by miracles, that by doctrines,9 and, that they should be of one soul; for this is glory, that they should be one, and greater even than miracles. As men 10 admire God because there is no strife or discord in That Nature, and this is His greatest glory, “so too let these,” He saith, “from this cause become glorious.” “And how,” saith some one, “doth He ask the Father to give this to them, when He sixth that He Himself giveth it?” Whether His discourse be concerning miracles, or unanimity, or peace, He is seen Himself to have given these things to them; whence it is clear that the petition is made for the sake of their comfort.

+Jn 17,23. “I in them, and Thou in Me.” “How gave He the glory?” By being in them, and having the Father with Him, so as to weld them 11 together. But in another place He speaketh not so; He saith not that the Father cometh by Him, but, “that He and the Father come, and take up their abode with him,” 12 “there” removing the suspicion of Sabellius, “here” that of Arius. 13

“That they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me.” (c. 14,23).

(He saith these latter words immediately after the other, to show that peace hath more power to attract men than a miracle; for as it is the nature of strife 14 to separate, so it is that of agreement to weld together.

“And I have 15 loved them as Thou hast loved Me.”

Here again the “as” means, as far as it is possible for a man to be loved; and the sure proof of His love is His giving Himself for them. After having told them that they shall be in safety, that they shall not be overturned, that they shall be holy, that many shall believe through them, that they shall enjoy great glory, that not He alone loved them, but the Father also; He next telleth them of what shah be after their sojourning here, 16 concerning the prizes and crowns laid up for them. (Chrysostom on John 82)

I have always thought that the way Chrysostom had articulated it was quite compelling concerning the “oneness” of Christs’ apostles. Although, I would tend to agree with Augustine on verse 22, he understands it as “the glory of heaven”, which he had given, prepared, and designed to give them in heaven. This seems to be the sense by the 24th verse.

 

[flyonthewall]

Most like the “oneness” Jesus talked about was unity and ‘being united’ in fellowship with Him.

Unity in fellowship with Him. Okay, is there more to it than that? If not, there are implications you may want to address, as in verse 21, the “oneness” that Jesus is praying for is the same that exists between He and the Father.
Just trying to understand without reading anything into your words.

 

[flyonthewall]

I think that Jesus explains this in v. 23
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This is explained more in Ephesians 4

Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Please take into consideration that I may not have the same foundational understanding that you do. The way you interpret or understand the scriptures may be different than mine so simply citing a scripture may not clarify my understanding of your belief.

Verse 3 talks about unity of Spirit…is this the same unity as the numerical unity described in verses 5 and 6? Or is it a unity of fellowship as stated by another? And how does that fit with John 17:21?
I don’t want to read anything into your response that may not be there so could you clarify or be more specific
Thanks

 

[Carlan]

Unity in fellowship with Him. Okay, is there more to it than that? If not, there are implications you may want to address, as in verse 21, the “oneness” that Jesus is praying for is the same that exists between He and the Father.
Just trying to understand without reading anything into your words.

Yes, because the Father loves us as he loves Jesus,He want us one in him in unity with the Trinity, Father , Son, and Holy Spirit. Peace, Carlan

 

[jlhargus]

I am curious to understand how others understand this passage.
What exactly is this “oneness” that is being prayed for by Jesus?

[Jn17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.]

JL: He is praying for the apostles and all ,who believe in him, thru their word throughout history. That they may be ONE indivisible BODY, just as he and the Father are indivisible. We in him, they in us thru the Holy Spirit. Not only a spiritual UNITY and oneness but VISIBLE so the world my see and believe the Father SENT Christ. Jesus shares his glory in giving his authority and gifts to the Church.

 

[flyonthewall]

+Jn 17,20. “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe.”5

[2.] For since He was dying for them, and said, that “For their sakes I sanctify Myself,” lest any one should think that He did this for the Apostles only, He added, “Neither pray I for these only, but for them also who believe on Me through their word.” By this again He revived their souls, showing that the disciples should be many. For because He made common what they possessed peculiarly, He comforteth them by showing that they were being made the cause of the salvation of others.

After having thus spoken concerning their salvation, and their being sanctified by faith and the Sacrifice, He afterwards speaketh of concord, and finally closeth his discourse with this, having begun with it and ended6 in it. For at the beginning He saith, “A new commandment I give unto you” (c. 13,34); and here,

+Jn 17,21. “That they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me and I in Thee.”

Here again the “as” doth not denote exact similarity in their case, (for it was not possible for them in so great a degree,) but only as far as was possible for men. Just as when He saith “Be ye merciful, as your Father.” (Luke vi. 36).

But what is, “In Us”?7 In the faith which is on Us. Because nothing so offends all men as divisions, He provideth that they should be one. “What then,” saith some one, “did He effect this?” Certainly He effected it. For all who believe through the Apostles are one, though some from among them were torn away. Nor did this escape His knowledge, He evenforetold it, and showed that it proceeded from men’s slack-mindedness.

“That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.”

As He said in the beginning, “By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye love one another,” And how should they hence believe? “Because,” He saith, “Thou art a God of peace.” If therefore they observe the same as those of whom they have learnt, their hearers shall know the teacher by the disciples, but if they quarrel, men shall deny that they are the disciples of a God of peace, and will not allow that I, not being peaceable, have been sent from Thee. Seest thou how, unto the end, He proveth His unanimity with the Father?

+Jn 17,22. “And the glory which Thou gavest Me, I have given them.”8

That by miracles, that by doctrines,9 and, that they should be of one soul; for this is glory, that they should be one, and greater even than miracles. As men 10 admire God because there is no strife or discord in That Nature, and this is His greatest glory, “so too let these,” He saith, “from this cause become glorious.” “And how,” saith some one, “doth He ask the Father to give this to them, when He sixth that He Himself giveth it?” Whether His discourse be concerning miracles, or unanimity, or peace, He is seen Himself to have given these things to them; whence it is clear that the petition is made for the sake of their comfort.

+Jn 17,23. “I in them, and Thou in Me.” “How gave He the glory?” By being in them, and having the Father with Him, so as to weld them 11 together. But in another place He speaketh not so; He saith not that the Father cometh by Him, but, “that He and the Father come, and take up their abode with him,” 12 “there” removing the suspicion of Sabellius, “here” that of Arius. 13

“That they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me.” (c. 14,23).

(He saith these latter words immediately after the other, to show that peace hath more power to attract men than a miracle; for as it is the nature of strife 14 to separate, so it is that of agreement to weld together.

“And I have 15 loved them as Thou hast loved Me.”

Here again the “as” means, as far as it is possible for a man to be loved; and the sure proof of His love is His giving Himself for them. After having told them that they shall be in safety, that they shall not be overturned, that they shall be holy, that many shall believe through them, that they shall enjoy great glory, that not He alone loved them, but the Father also; He next telleth them of what shah be after their sojourning here, 16 concerning the prizes and crowns laid up for them. (Chrysostom on John 82)

I have always thought that the way Chrysostom had articulated it was quite compelling concerning the “oneness” of Christs’ apostles. Although, I would tend to agree with Augustine on verse 22, he understands it as “the glory of heaven”, which he had given, prepared, and designed to give them in heaven. This seems to be the sense by the 24th verse.

Your response seems to be taken from a web site or other source(s). Could you provide the link so that I may read the whole thing?

The explaination of verse 21 seems to refer back to something else that addressed the word ‘as’, to not mean what it seems to mean. Afterall, this was a prayer that requested a specific type of unity, with a specific comparison, to not really mean what was stated.

 

[Carlan]

Yes, because the Father loves us as he loves Jesus,He want us one in him in unity with the Trinity, Father , Son, and Holy Spirit. Peace, Carlan

Simply, isn’t that what it is all about. Unity, One in Him forever in Eternity, because he created us for himself to love forever? I keep thinking what we were taught in the old Catechism, God created because he loves and wants us to" Love Him and Serve Him so We Can be Happy with Him Forever in Heaven" .Why do you have to debate this and make it sound so complicated. Can’t we just be Catholic Christians of common sense?Peace, Carlan

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is our sacramental view of this life where our understanding comes from. It is speaking about our consecration to God, and Jesus speaking of His consecration to the Father. So we are One in Him, with Him and through Him.

It is a physical and mystical union, one we participate in via the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist. Just as the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb preconfigured the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, our participation in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the Holy Eucharist, preconfigures the life to come.

These scriptures passages speak to all the above.

“In Him, with Him and through Him, through the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory is Yours, almighty Father. Forever and ever. Amen.”

 

[Carlan]

It is our sacramental view of this life where our understanding comes from. It is speaking about our consecration to God, and Jesus speaking of His consecration to the Father. So we are One in Him, with Him and through Him.

It is a physical and mystical union, one we participate in via the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist. Just as the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb preconfigured the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, our participation in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the Holy Eucharist, preconfigures the life to come.

These scriptures passages speak to all the above.

“In Him, with Him and through Him, through the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory is Yours, almighty Father. Forever and ever. Amen.”

Amen, and Amen, The celebration of the Holy Liturgy.Being lived out. Peace, Carlan

 

[flyonthewall]

He is praying for the apostles and all ,who believe in him, thru their word throughout history. That they may be ONE indivisible BODY, just as he and the Father are indivisible. We in him, they in us thru the Holy Spirit. Not only a spiritual UNITY and oneness but VISIBLE so the world my see and believe the Father SENT Christ. Jesus shares his glory in giving his authority and gifts to the Church.

His words indicate that they, this indivisible body, be IN Father and Son just as the Father and Son are IN each other. Does this involve a nature or substance change for the people that make up the BODY?

 

[jlhargus]

I am curious to understand how others understand this passage.

What exactly is this “oneness” that is being prayed for by Jesus?

JL: Jn17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He is praying for the apostles and ALL who will believe in HIM thru their word throughout history. That they ALL be ONE indivisible BODY. Just as the TRINITY are one indivisible BEING. We in them, they in us thru the Holy Spirit. He is praying not only for spiritual UNITY and oneness, but also VISIBLE ONENESS so the world may SEE and BELIEVE the Father sent Him. Jesus shares his glory in giving his authority and gifts to the Church.

 

[flyonthewall]

It is our sacramental view of this life where our understanding comes from. It is speaking about our consecration to God, and Jesus speaking of His consecration to the Father. So we are One in Him, with Him and through Him.

It is a physical and mystical union, one we participate in via the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist. Just as the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb preconfigured the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, our participation in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the Holy Eucharist, preconfigures the life to come.

These scriptures passages speak to all the above.

“In Him, with Him and through Him, through the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory is Yours, almighty Father. Forever and ever. Amen.”

There is that word “mystical”, meaning you don’t know…and it is ok to say you don’t know.
You say it is a physical union too, is there a physical union between Father and Son?
Your response seems to indicate things of this earth life…participation thru the Sacraments, but will there still be Sacraments after this life? If it is the Sacraments that produce the unity, and the unity is supposed to be the same as Father and Son, do the Father and Son require the Sacraments for unity?
My questions may seem rather obvious to you, but the implications that arise need clarification.

 

[jlhargus]

His words indicate that they, this indivisible body, be IN Father and Son just as the Father and Son are IN each other. Does this involve a nature or substance change for the people that make up the BODY?

JL: [Jn14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, **how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.] The Holy Spirit is the soul or life force of the Church and indwells individual members baptized into Christ. The Church has and will alway be ONE no matter how many may leave. The Church loves her Lord and keeps HIS WORD.

 

[jlhargus]

His words indicate that they, this indivisible body, be IN Father and Son just as the Father and Son are IN each other. Does this involve a nature or substance change for the people that make up the BODY?

JL: [Jn14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, **how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.] The Holy Spirit is the soul or life force of the Church and indwells individual baptized members in a state of grace. The Church has and will alway be ONE no matter how many may leave. The Church loves her Lord and keeps HIS WORD.

 

[Carlan]

There is that word “mystical”, meaning you don’t know…and it is ok to say you don’t know.
You say it is a physical union too, is there a physical union between Father and Son?
Your response seems to indicate things of this earth life…participation thru the Sacraments, but will there still be Sacraments after this life? If it is the Sacraments that produce the unity, and the unity is supposed to be the same as Father and Son, do the Father and Son require the Sacraments for unity?
My questions may seem rather obvious to you, but the implications that arise need clarification.

Sorry, I did not realize you were not coming from a Catholic Christian prospective
If you are interested in the Apostolic Faith, I hope you stay visiting, for these are excellent forums from which to learn what we believe. Peace , Carlan

 

[flyonthewall]

JL: [Jn14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, **how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.] The Holy Spirit is the soul or life force of the Church and indwells individual members baptized into Christ. The Church has and will alway be ONE no matter how many may leave. The Church loves her Lord and keeps HIS WORD.
Um, I don’t mean to sound dense but does that mean there will or will not be a change in nature or substance of the people that make up the body of the church?
I am a little confused about how you use the word “church”. “Church” can mean an organization, or it can mean a body of believers. I think you use it as a body of believers. However, if people leave that body of believers, then it is not unified…you don’t see, or hear of the Father, Son or Holy Ghost leaving the Godhead.
I agree and understand with much of what you describe, I just want to be sure I understand the big picture of what you are trying to convey.

 

[flyonthewall]

Sorry, I did not realize you were not coming from a Catholic Christian prospective
If you are interested in the Apostolic Faith, I hope you stay visiting, for these are excellent forums from which to learn what we believe. Peace , Carlan

No I am not Catholic, and part of the reason I am here is to learn of other’s beliefs.
Many times I find we talk past each other because of the difference in the foundational understanding. We may use the same words here and there, but the meanings assigned to them can be nuanced and give different understandings for each party.