If a person or persons leave the body of believers (The Church)they are no longer in unity,they have separated themselves from the body of the Church.The Church, the Body of Christ is still in union with the Trinity.
Absolutely, it is easily read via:
I feel the description of “as” is spot on, after all, the unity that the apostles (whom, of course were men) had, could never be exactly “as” the unity of the Holy Trinity.
This may help fly ! In John 14:7-10 Christ says, " ‘If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.’ Philip said to him, ‘Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.’ Jesus replied, 'Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works."
JL: If some leave the Church, the body of Christ, is still ONE body.
Dang, there is that word “as” - Chrysostom had explained in his Homely, Christ does pray that his disciples may be one, as he and his heavenly Father are one; not that the unity may resemble the unity of persons in the divinity, by a perfect and exact likeness; but only as far as it is possible for men to imitate the perfections of God… and I would agree.
FOTW, it seems many LDS have a problem with “mystical” or “mystery”.
[bibledrb]John 6:53-57[/bibledrb]
Just as the Son fulfilled the daily sacrifice in the Jewish temple, so He will fulfill our Sacramental life. He, Who brought the sacrificial practice of the temple to perfection, perfects us in Him, with Him and through Him.
These are gifts of the Holy Spirit given to us through Christ’s Church. The Sacraments are outward signs of an inward grace.
I understand, but you are asking and seeing through the smoke of your Mormon teachings. I can’t see that Mormons in this frame of mind can ever understand. You have to let go, and let God bring you to Him. It is His desire for you.
I think your confusion is the definition of the Church. Once you get this one down you can begin to understand the rest of Scriptures. St Paul describes what the Church is. One body, One Faith, One Spirit. What is One Faith? St Paul also speaks of we sharing of the same bread. St Paul speaks of what he received he will pass on: "that the night He died, He broke the bread and gave thanks…
Yes, Ben, sometimes our own understanding of it all gets in the way.Carlin. I´m no expert, however, Jesus once said the Sabbath was made for man not the other way around. I believe the sacraments were made for man, not The Father and Son. They don´t need them. Indeed they created them. In the afterlife we experience eventually the results of the Sacraments. I too am glad you´re online. God bless:thumbsup:
Peace and Christ’s blessings during this Advent season. CarlanWell okay, I will take it as you say, but it still leaves me wondering why the direct comparison if it does not apply.Absolutely, it is easily read via:
newadvent.org/fathers/240182.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm
I personally use:
clerus.org/bibliaclerus/index_eng.html
I feel the description of “as” is spot on, after all, the unity that the apostles (whom, of course were men) had, could never be exactly “as” the unity of the Holy Trinity.
- which is somewhat difficult to navigate, although a bit more in depth… imo.
Edit: Content.
It seems to totaly reverse the meaning of the words spoken by the Savior, that we may be one in them as they are one in each other, but I will take it as you put forth.
Well yes, not only does Christ pray that His disciples will be one with each other as the Father and Son are one, but He also prays that His disciples will be in Them as They are in each other. It just seems odd that He would pray for this result if that result is not possible.
Theosis. Becoming one with God, though not in essence, to take on some of his divine properties, as steel heated over flame takes on certain properties of fire, it never becomes fire.
I have my understanding of what the church is, but may not match yours.
I do not have a problem with “mystical” or “mystery”. As I said, it is simply a way to say “I don’t know”.
Okay.
I won’t rehash this.
Not sure the purpose of this statement as we beleive we are in the image of God also.
This is great. You know He will do something, but not sure exactly how He will do it…but you understand His limitations.?St Paul taught, all creation groans in anticipation.
I take it from your response above, there may come a time when the Sacraments are no longer needed…?
I am trying to put aside my LDS filter, it is difficult, but that is why I am asking for the understandings of others. I think it will help in discussions of religion.
That is the problem. the understanding. where did you get your understanding of the Church? from whom?
OK, but I wasn’t trying to be controversial or combative. Just, we had a LDS poster here for a while who mocked everything Catholic by saying, “I know, it’s a mystery!” So I apologize for thinking you were coming from the same “place”.
I wasn’t asking you to.
Mormons make God in the image of themselves. You can experience this yourself, if you are awake and are noticing what Mormons say in their meetings.
What limitations?
They will be fulfilled. This is not the same as not being needed. Jesus fulfills the temple sacrifices, our need for Him is great. Our need is infinite, and can only filled by the Infinite.
Yes, I know it is difficult. Pray for the wisdom that only God can give.
It would be an impossibility to be “exactly as” the Father and Son are one, would you agree? Being that humanity it not divine, therefor unable to achieve this same union, only a likeness of said union.
No problem.
I have attending meetings for the last 40+ years and have never experienced what you describe.
Limitations on how that unity will be.
I can understand the difference between being fulfilled and not needed. My question was very simplistic so thanks for the clarification.
No, I would not agree.
I wanted this thread to be a learning experience for me, so did not want arguments about who was right or wrong.
No, I would not agree.QUOTE]
Fly here’s an excerpt regarding the Trinitarian excigesis as understood early on by the Apostles. .
Catholic Understanding :>> In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative. (2) In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matt., xxi, 33 sqq.). (3) He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His commands (Matt., xxiv, 31). (4) He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias—a step long since taken by all the Apostles—but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matt., xvi, 16, 17). (5) Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke, xxii, 66-71).From : The Catholic Encyclopedia
The fundamental essence of heaven is union with God. The Catechism explains that “perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity . . . is called ‘heaven.’ Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness” (CCC 1024). It also states that “heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ” (CCC 1026).
Traditionally theology has explained the chief blessing or “beatitude” of heaven as “the beatific vision”—an insight into the wonder of God’s inner, invisible essence. “Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory ‘the beatific vision’” (CCC 1028).
God from God Light from Light True God from True God One in being with the Father: From our creed.
:newidea: Angels are Gods first creation, the good angels stayed and the bad angels strayed.:sad_yes: It would seem to be our dillemna ? Let God be God !
Hope this helps a little::twocents:
Peace