How do you refute the argument that the unborn baby is assaulting the mother?

[Bellator]

NeedtoStop:

Science has proven that the unborn child does not assault the mother, especially not in the parasitic manner that Planned Parenthood wishes us to believe. On the contrary, for over 30 years it has been known among embryologists that the fetus actually helps the mother, and continues to do so long after birth. Please read this article from LifeSiteNews which elaborates what I have said, it is truely fascinating.

lifesitenews.com/news/unborn-child-just-a-parasite-cutting-edge-science-shows-fetal-cells-heal-mo

Sincerely,
Bellator

 

[meltzerboy]

This person admits that the unborn are humans (but insists that they are not human beings, and are not people), but insists that the unborn is assaulting the mother, therefore abortion is not murder but self-defense. I pointed out that if everyone took this point of view, then the human race would die out, and he said that wouldn’t be a bad thing.

How do I respond to this person?

This idea may be a distortion of the Jewish belief as found in the Talmud (Oral Law) that the baby who endangers the life of its mother can be aborted since the mother has the right to self-defense. In this instance, the unborn child is considered a “rodef,” or “pursuer.” However, this view certainly does NOT say that all unborn children are assaulting or threatening the life of their mother and should be aborted.

 

[Jeanne_S]

We are not friends. I met him on debate.org and we had a debate about abortion. And according to the people who voted on the debate he won, despite his ridiculous arguments.

He sounds like a troll

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This person admits that the unborn are humans (but insists that they are not human beings, and are not people), but insists that the unborn is assaulting the mother, therefore abortion is not murder but self-defense. I pointed out that if everyone took this point of view, then the human race would die out, and he said that wouldn’t be a bad thing.

How do I respond to this person?

I see variations of this viewpoint on Youtube, on pro-life videos. You can’t argue with these people. They are unable to truly think.

 

[TS_Aquinas]

NeedtoStop:

Science has proven that the unborn child does not assault the mother, especially not in the parasitic manner that Planned Parenthood wishes us to believe. On the contrary, for over 30 years it has been known among embryologists that the fetus actually helps the mother, and continues to do so long after birth. Please read this article from LifeSiteNews which elaborates what I have said, it is truely fascinating.

lifesitenews.com/news/unborn-child-just-a-parasite-cutting-edge-science-shows-fetal-cells-heal-mo

Sincerely,
Bellator

Oh wow, amazing research. Thanks for the link, that is certainly being saved for future debates.

Gives us something else to contemplate of the relation between Blessed Virgin Mary and Christ, His cells subsisted in her throughout her life and unto her Assumption… going to be busy meditating this for awhile.

 

[Alder]

This person admits that the unborn are humans (but insists that they are not human beings, and are not people), but insists that the unborn is assaulting the mother, therefore abortion is not murder but self-defense. I pointed out that if everyone took this point of view, then the human race would die out, and he said that wouldn’t be a bad thing.

How do I respond to this person?

It sounds like the person is trying (not very well) to recite some version of the “violinist argument”.

The words " assault" and “self-defence” probably aren’t the best words to express the idea your debating partner is getting at.

The words “squatting” and “eviction” probably suit better.

 

[austenbosten]

This person admits that the unborn are humans (but insists that they are not human beings, and are not people), but insists that the unborn is assaulting the mother, therefore abortion is not murder but self-defense. I pointed out that if everyone took this point of view, then the human race would die out, and he said that wouldn’t be a bad thing.

How do I respond to this person?

Wow…were do I even begin…those nutjobs really believe that [fecal matter]?
I would just respond with “You’re nuts pal! Go talk to a shrink fast.” and get as much distance away from them as possible.

People like that are just sick and twisted who are seeking to get a ruse out of us. It works for me, but that’s because I have a terrible sense of tolerance for pure nonsense such as that. Just avoid those people like the plague and realize that God will deal with them.

 

[Bookcat]

Prayer.

If someone things that they are King Author …well…pray and try to get them some assistance…but in then end they may not budge from their irrational idea.

 

[tabycat]

Wow…were do I even begin…those nutjobs really believe that [fecal matter]?
I would just respond with “You’re nuts pal! Go talk to a shrink fast.” and get as much distance away from them as possible.

People like that are just sick and twisted who are seeking to get a ruse out of us. It works for me, but that’s because I have a terrible sense of tolerance for pure nonsense such as that. Just avoid those people like the plague and realize that God will deal with them.

:amen:

 

[johnnyjones]

That fact that the person said , “it wouldn’t be a bad thing” if the human race was wiped out means your dealing with a foolish person to begin with (and possibly evil). With answers like that my advise is to preach the gospel and move on.

 

[tabycat]

Maybe all of us should be put in jail for assaulting our birth mothers.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Here is one example refutation:

Assault can only be perpetrated by individuals. Hence, according to his argument, he recognizes unborn children as individuals. As individuals, they are entitled to due process of the law, which includes legal representation and just punishment if convicted of a crime. Abortion deprives an individual of due process and inflicts unjust punishment.

Further, for an offense to be deemed criminal, there both actus reus and mens rea (a guilty act and a guilty intent). Therefore, in order to prove assault, you must legally demonstrate the individual’s* actus reus* and mens rea. Invariably, laws in all modern states exempt very young children from criminal responsibility, hence, there can never be mens rea. Ergo, they can never be guilty of assault.

 

[Needtostop]

Please read carefully and do not take this response out of context.

So, my first question is which is greater, getting this person to change belief systems or healing your wounded human pride for apparently losing the argument on a forum? Is it possible that this person felt you were a unyielding religious fanatic (not saying you are) and so went about the business of pushing your buttons to make you appear to be. Falling to this strategy weakens your position and strengthens his/hers. Why even argue this ludicrous position? It is a foolish debate.

On the other hand, take the lesson of Saul. How many people prayed for him either to be converted or annihilated. His treatment of early Christians was barbaric and bazaar. And yet he has become one of the greatest teachers of the church. The true lesson here is whether or not you can see beyond the words and find the perfection of God in this person even in spite of this proposed position on abortion. Find and pray for that aspect of this person that the expression may become more in alignment with the truth that God has created him/her from. Admit within yourself that God has the ability to take and elevate people such as this to very high causes and we may all be learning from them one day. Use these people and situations as a chance to grow in your faith that God can and does have a plan for everybody even if we cannot understand it at any given point. Do this and you’ll find that this person and their outlandish position will have served to increase your own faith. Then you will be better equipped to respond to the important debates.

I want to change his position. I have to be honest, sometimes it gets to the point where I just want to win the argument, but I try really hard to NOT do it for that reason, but to do it for God’s glory and for the person’s own good, and to save babies from being killed. I guess I should just pray for him, instead of debating.

 

[Needtostop]

NeedtoStop:

Science has proven that the unborn child does not assault the mother, especially not in the parasitic manner that Planned Parenthood wishes us to believe. On the contrary, for over 30 years it has been known among embryologists that the fetus actually helps the mother, and continues to do so long after birth. Please read this article from LifeSiteNews which elaborates what I have said, it is truely fascinating.

lifesitenews.com/news/unborn-child-just-a-parasite-cutting-edge-science-shows-fetal-cells-heal-mo

Sincerely,
Bellator

 

[Needtostop]

Oh wow, amazing research. Thanks for the link, that is certainly being saved for future debates.

Gives us something else to contemplate of the relation between Blessed Virgin Mary and Christ, His cells subsisted in her throughout her life and unto her Assumption… going to be busy meditating this for awhile.

WOW! That’s amazing!

 

[Needtostop]

Here is one example refutation:

Assault can only be perpetrated by individuals. Hence, according to his argument, he recognizes unborn children as individuals. As individuals, they are entitled to due process of the law, which includes legal representation and just punishment if convicted of a crime. Abortion deprives an individual of due process and inflicts unjust punishment.

Further, for an offense to be deemed criminal, there both actus reus and mens rea (a guilty act and a guilty intent). Therefore, in order to prove assault, you must legally demonstrate the individual’s* actus reus* and mens rea. Invariably, laws in all modern states exempt very young children from criminal responsibility, hence, there can never be mens rea. Ergo, they can never be guilty of assault.

 

[Gorillaman]

You ask what the literal response from people if that was put into place?..what if his awesome idea, was put into action?..

Ask him what he thinks people of the earth would do.

Everyone think about that…it makes my eyes water to imagine, the passion and fury humans will come to bat with when there LOVE is threatened…

The most beautiful fact is that yeah if you wanna see the human being as just any other animal this pedejo may have a point…but were not…we endure the pain of life and still push forward,still try. It’s futile, without God.

Put your hands or turn your sites upon my families children…and I will die for them. Die. Fight with a smile on my face for them. Tell this vato to grow up. Or grow a pair.

But that’s just one mans opinion.

 

[Needtostop]

You ask what the literal response from people if that was put into place?..what if his awesome idea, was put into action?..

Ask him what he thinks people of the earth would do.

Everyone think about that…it makes my eyes water to imagine, the passion and fury humans will come to bat with when there LOVE is threatened…

The most beautiful fact is that yeah if you wanna see the human being as just any other animal this pedejo may have a point…but were not…we endure the pain of life and still push forward,still try. It’s futile, without God.

Put your hands or turn your sites upon my families children…and I will die for them. Die. Fight with a smile on my face for them. Tell this vato to grow up. Or grow a pair.

But that’s just one mans opinion.

 

[LilyM]

I’ll simply say that pregnancy is what all normal, healthy female bodies are designed to do naturally. Pregnancy is not a disease, or a disability or an assault on the body.

A minority of women, often enough because of pre-existing undiagnosed health issues, have problems associated with pregnancy. It makes no more sense to call a baby an assailant because of this than it would to say peanuts are assaulting you because you happen to have an allergic reaction to them.

 

[Rudy_Baga]

I want to change his position. I have to be honest, sometimes it gets to the point where I just want to win the argument, but I try really hard to NOT do it for that reason, but to do it for God’s glory and for the person’s own good, and to save babies from being killed. I guess I should just pray for him, instead of debating.

You do realize that his actual position may change according to the debate? It is on a debate site and he may be in it for the debate instead of a debate of truth or fact. It sounds to me like you debate that issue and he has taken up the position of making you appear willing to argue against a ridiculous statement. By doing so, he has weakened your argument. You see, by making you seem to be emotionally attached enough to engage in this discussion, he proves that you are emotional enough to embrace any foolish idea to the point of arguing against reason. Then he can move it to the position of this: If the debater will embrace and engage against something as outlandish as this, then the original point or subject can be questioned as being equally outlandish. By default, you have fallen into a trap that is hard to get out of. That being that you are an unreasonable person who should not be taken serious and therefore cannot be taken serious in your position on this particular topic. Lawyers use this strategy effectively in court to create a sense of questionable credibility.

How do you think Jesus would have approached this debate and debater? Have you supported or weakened the pro-life message by your approach? Have you garnered support or lost it by this debate? How can you better communicate your belief as a valid position and/or know when to disengage?