How do you refute this argument?

[Pag_Hingowa]

PREVENTION IS NOT ABORTION! If there is no conception, there is no fetus or life. Having contraception available to the adults prevents conception and therefore prevents abortion. Irresponsible pro-creation has put many people in misery even using their children to beg on the streets to survive when they could have been in school. We cannot stop people from having sex! So why not give them the tool to plan their family? It’s their decision to have sex and when or how many children they can afford to raise. To see people living on the streets with many children is heartbreaking. But it’s the kind of life many of them can’t run away from because NO ONE CAN PREVENT PEOPLE FROM HAVING SEX! Our politicians and celebrities even flaunt their trophy mistresses and concubines. Therefore, many unwanted children are born into this world only to die from hunger and disease. The RH Bill is not about abortion. It’s about contraception, family planning and maternity health care and education. We are the only country that don’t allow the distribution of condoms that also prevent sexually transmitted diseases. All other catholic countries like Italy where the Vatican sits allow it. So why don’t we? It’s obvious that in this country, our lawmakers are influenced by the interference of the church. They are aware of the “poverty” problem we’ve been having is getting worse and yet, they are still complacent, apathetic and incorrigible in their misguided beliefs. The squatters issue is one of the results of their misguided beliefs. Would they rather see the sufferings of children in slow painful death or prevent the SENSELESS AND IRRESPONSIBLE pro-creation so as to avoid this problem that’s caused by too many unplanned and unwanted children? Again, prevention is not abortion!

 

[CompSciGuy]

PREVENTION IS NOT ABORTION! If there is no conception, there is no fetus or life. Having contraception available to the adults prevents conception and therefore prevents abortion.

The societies in the world that have the most availability to contraception also have the highest abortion rates… so… yeah. Something to think about.

Irresponsible pro-creation has put many people in misery even using their children to beg on the streets to survive when they could have been in school.

I think the best solution is that we direct funding into helping these kids instead of cutting them to pieces before they even have the luxury of taking their first breath.

We cannot stop people from having sex! So why not give them the tool to plan their family? It’s their decision to have sex and when or how many children they can afford to raise. To see people living on the streets with many children is heartbreaking. But it’s the kind of life many of them can’t run away from because NO ONE CAN PREVENT PEOPLE FROM HAVING SEX! Our politicians and celebrities even flaunt their trophy mistresses and concubines. Therefore, many unwanted children are born into this world only to die from hunger and disease. The RH Bill is not about abortion. It’s about contraception, family planning and maternity health care and education. We are the only country that don’t allow the distribution of condoms that also prevent sexually transmitted diseases.

Contraceptives are certainly available in the United States. If you’re suggesting that we give them away for free so that people can live irresponsibly supposedly without consequences, you’ve got another thing coming. As far as contraceptives are concerned, and their effectiveness, see my first point.

All other catholic countries like Italy where the Vatican sits allow it. So why don’t we? It’s obvious that in this country, our lawmakers are influenced by the interference of the church. They are aware of the “poverty” problem we’ve been having is getting worse and yet, they are still complacent, apathetic and incorrigible in their misguided beliefs. The squatters issue is one of the results of their misguided beliefs. Would they rather see the sufferings of children in slow painful death or prevent the SENSELESS AND IRRESPONSIBLE pro-creation so as to avoid this problem that’s caused by too many unplanned and unwanted children? Again, prevention is not abortion!

Ultimately people can decide how they want to control the amount of children they have. I do think this is blowing it out of proportion just a little bit.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Widespread availability of contraceptives has led to a culture that considers sexual activity merely a means of achieving pleasure. The fallout from this is all around us, in the form of decadence.

The availability of contraceptives has, historically, increased the incidence of sexual activity so much that it has increased the number of teenage pregnancies, not reduced it.

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

The societies in the world that have the most availability to contraception also have the highest abortion rates… so… yeah. Something to think about.

I think the best solution is that we direct funding into helping these kids instead of cutting them to pieces before they even have the luxury of taking their first breath.

Contraceptives are certainly available in the United States. If you’re suggesting that we give them away for free so that people can live irresponsibly supposedly without consequences, you’ve got another thing coming. As far as contraceptives are concerned, and their effectiveness, see my first point.

Ultimately people can decide how they want to control the amount of children they have. I do think this is blowing it out of proportion just a little bit.

Thank you. I told her everything you said, but she the logic escapes her. She said, “Well, how is it working for our country now when you talked about direct funding to help the kids?” There’s only so much that people can do to help the needy. They have to help themselves, too. And how can you say that we are “cutting then to pieces before they even have the luxury of taking their first breath? There is NO ONE to cut into pieces if there is no one born into this world that parents can’t afford to raise. PREVENTION IS NOT ABORTION BECAUSE THERE IS NO CONCEPTION! Are you one of those who believe that a man’s sperm is life in itself and therefore has to be created with the woman’s eggs? What if the woman does not want to? Do you insist then that you plant your seeds in someone else’s soil whether the owner of the soil (woman’s body) does not want you to? That’s the argument that I had with my daughter’s father when he insisted that I bear more children for him whether I like it or not and never mind that we had a rocky relationship and both of us did not have a job and relied solely on my mother’s financial help. So I refused and took birth control pills. I only have one child ever since which is good because I would have been stuck in an abusive relationship because I have so many children to tow with me when I left him. There are many women in the Philippines who currently in the situation I was in before and could not leave because of many children. So they suffer with the abuse and miserable life and the innocent children suffer the most! Deprived of proper care and education.”

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Do you insist then that you plant your seeds in someone else’s soil whether the owner of the soil (woman’s body) does not want you to?

That would be rape. No one here is advocating rape. Women have the choice not to have sex, no? Or are women some sort of inferior species, that cannot control their bodies?

Are you – or is she – saying that a person has a right to have sex without any consequences? From what do you derive this right?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

That’s the argument that I had with my daughter’s father when he insisted that I bear more children for him whether I like it or not and never mind that we had a rocky relationship and both of us did not have a job and relied solely on my mother’s financial help. So I refused and took birth control pills. I only have one child ever since which is good because I would have been stuck in an abusive relationship because I have so many children to tow with me when I left him. There are many women in the Philippines who currently in the situation I was in before and could not leave because of many children. So they suffer with the abuse and miserable life and the innocent children suffer the most! Deprived of proper care and education.

So we should empower women to leave abusive relationships!

Is she saying that staying in the abusive relationship, and not having kids, is somehow better than leaving the relationship? Surely not. But then, what is she saying?

(Side note: I’m sure the Philipino children would prefer not to exist.)

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

That would be rape. No one here is advocating rape. Women have the choice not to have sex, no? Or are women some sort of inferior species, that cannot control their bodies?

Are you – or is she – saying that a person has a right to have sex without any consequences? From what do you derive this right?

You are missing the point! There are no children because there was no conception on the first place. Children exist before conception.

 

[bzkoss236]

You obviously don’t understand how the majority, and more widely available, birth control pills work. They attempt to prevent conception, but also cause chemical and evacuative abortions if conception does happen to occur. Plus, we aren’t in the game of providing a lesser evil to combat a greater evil. That isn’t how the world should work. All evils should be done away with.

 

[St_Francis]

PREVENTION IS NOT ABORTION! If there is no conception, there is no fetus or life. Having contraception available to the adults prevents conception and therefore prevents abortion.

ABC gives people the *illusion *that sexual activity and babies are unconnected, that they can have sex without babies. So they have more sex than they otherwise would, and end up with babies they did not expect, and then they seek abortions so they can continue having as much sex as they want or can get.

That is why we so often see a rise in the number and percentage of abortions concurrent with the dessemination of the contraceptive mentality.

Irresponsible pro-creation has put many people in misery even using their children to beg on the streets to survive when they could have been in school.

At the time of Christendom, when whole populations were Catholic and there was no artificial contraception other than herbs and the like, families had more babies. Some of these babies grew up to dedicate their lives to God, and many of them served the poor. Those children did not have to go begging, because they were cared for. We were able to have a replacement birthrate *plus, *which allowed a society to have people whose lives were dedcated to God.

We cannot stop people from having sex!

Well, we *certainly *cannot stop people from having sex if we encourage them to have sex! And making sure they have access to abc is definitely an encouagement to have sex.

So why not give them the tool to plan their family?

Because giving them that tool is extremely dangerous, sort of like giving someone a hammer with a loose head that mght fly off at any time.

We could instead give people the tools to restrain themselves…

It’s their decision to have sex and when or how many children they can afford to raise.

Yes, it is. So you should stop interfering and pushing sex onto them.

To see people living on the streets with many children is heartbreaking.

And what are *you *doing to help these children? Pushing the false illusion that people can have sex without consequences on their parents so there will be more of these sad children!

But it’s the kind of life many of them can’t run away from because NO ONE CAN PREVENT PEOPLE FROM HAVING SEX!

The reality that sex resulted in children once kept people from having sex. It is the illusion that they can have sex without conceiving new babies which makes it difficult to stop people people from having sex.

Can you imagine how much people would eat if there were a pill which made it so calories were not absorbed?

Our politicians and celebrities even flaunt their trophy mistresses and concubines.

Maybe if these people weren’t all protected from the consequences of this bad behavior, they wouldn’t be cavorting around like that. If people stopped voting for them and going to their movies and paying for the magazines which publicize their sin, maybe they’d stop.

Therefore, many unwanted children are born into this world only to die from hunger and disease.

Because people follow the example set for them.

And what will the people want when the birth control fails? They will want abortion!

The RH Bill is not about abortion. It’s about contraception, family planning and maternity health care and education.

in general, It’s not about abortion *yet. *To the extent that it’s about the IUD and the pill, the first of which works only on preventing the implantation of babies already conceived, and the latter of which has that mechanism as a “back-up” if suppression of ovulation does not occur, it is about abortion.

We are the only country that don’t allow the distribution of condoms that also prevent sexually transmitted diseases.

The only nation which has actually reduced the rate of HIV/AIDS is the one which instituted an abstinance program. Thise which have implemented condom distribution programs have seen these rates *rise. *

All other catholic countries like Italy where the Vatican sits allow it.

And if they were to all start jumping off a cliff, would you do the same?

(This may be a cultural reference… in the US, teenagers will sometimes use the argument that everyone else is doing it! to persuade their parents to let them do it. This is the standard response.

Ironically, all these nations actually are jumping off a cliff: the demographic cliff.)

So why don’t we? It’s obvious that in this country, our lawmakers are influenced by the interference of the church. They are aware of the “poverty” problem we’ve been having is getting worse and yet, they are still complacent, apathetic and incorrigible in their misguided beliefs. The squatters issue is one of the results of their misguided beliefs.

These problems seem to have grown in relation to the separation of the society from the Church.

Would they rather see the sufferings of children in slow painful death or prevent the SENSELESS AND IRRESPONSIBLE pro-creation so as to avoid this problem that’s caused by too many unplanned and unwanted children?

If you don’t want to see the suffering if these children, why aren’t you helping them instead of spending all this energy on ABC? What a waste!

Again, prevention is not abortion!

But when prevention fails, what will happen?

In the US, the more abc was legalized, the more the illegitimate rates of births went up. The more sex ed and programs to distribute abc went up, the more abortions went up.

These people are lying, and they are not disclosing their true motivation for pushing ABC on everyone in the entire world.

 

[St_Francis]

Thank you. I told her everything you said, but she the logic escapes her. She said, “Well, how is it working for our country now when you talked about direct funding to help the kids?” There’s only so much that people can do to help the needy. They have to help themselves, too.

ABC is not the only way to prevent people from having children when they are not ready to care for them.

And how can you say that we are "cutting then to pieces before they even have the luxury of taking their first breath? There is NO ONE to cut into pieces if there is no one born into this world that parents can’t afford to raise. PREVENTION IS NOT ABORTION BECAUSE THERE IS NO CONCEPTION!

She obviously does not understand how the IUD works, nor how unreliable ABC is–even the Pill has failures.

Are you one of those who believe that a man’s sperm is life in itself and therefore has to be created with the woman’s eggs?

No.

What if the woman does not want to?

If the woman does not want to have babies, then she must avoid having sex.

Do you insist then that you plant your seeds in someone else’s soil whether the owner of the soil (woman’s body) does not want you to?

This sounds like a crime to me… surely rape is illegal in the Phillipines.

That’s the argument that I had with my daughter’s father when he insisted that I bear more children for him whether I like it or not and never mind that we had a rocky relationship and both of us did not have a job and relied solely on my mother’s financial help.

So you went on the Pill so you could stay with an abusive man who relies on women to support him?

So I refused and took birth control pills. I only have one child ever since which is good because I would have been stuck in an abusive relationship because I have so many children to tow with me when I left him. There are many women in the Philippines who currently in the situation I was in before and could not leave because of many children. So they suffer with the abuse and miserable life and the innocent children suffer the most! Deprived of proper care and education."

Sounds like her taking the Pill allowed her to chose to stay in an abusive relationship far longer than she ought to have. Her use of the Pill allowed an abusive boyfriend to continue to abuse.

And she thinks this is a good thing to inflict on other women?!?!?!?!?!?

Seems to me her efforts would be better used in helping women who are being abused rather than in *aiding their abusive boyfriends. *

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You are missing the point! There are no children because there was no conception on the first place. Children exist before conception.

I’m not missing the point. I’m not making a point about abortion. I am simply saying that no Catholic claims that women have to allow men’s seed in their bodies against their will. That is what you said: “Do you insist then that you plant your seeds in someone else’s soil whether the owner of the soil (woman’s body) does not want you to”. But if a woman does not consent to sex, then sex is immoral and illegal for the man. If a Catholic woman does not want to get pregnant, she can refuse to have sex. Simple as that.

 

[bzkoss236]

Also, I want to add that since it is well known that women can become pregnant from having sex (even when using contraceptives, which are not 100% effective), then by having sex they are accepting this risk. If they become pregnant, then that was something they accepted for themselves. Cases of rape are different, which is why the Church permits the use of a contraceptive pill in the case of a rape if it can be shown that the woman has (without a doubt) not conceived (typically by checking to see whether she she has ovulated or not).

 

[ahs]

You refute it like this: [this is just my version of the same]

PREVENTION IS NOT ABORTION! If there is no conception, there is no fetus or life.

No problem there!

Having contraception available to the adults prevents conception and therefore prevents abortion.

That’s not what the stats and history tell us. Those show that with the increase in availavbe contraceptives, there is a direct increase in abortion rates. So, it seems that having contraception available acts to encourage sex…which then leads to unplanned and unwanted pregnancies…and then to abortion. That’s what the stats show.

Irresponsible pro-creation has put many people in misery even using their children to beg on the streets to survive when they could have been in school.

Re-wording: Irresponsible choices force people into having to deal with the consequences of their actions. I don’t see a problem with expecting people to deal with the consequences of their behavior…it’s part of learning.

We cannot stop people from having sex! So why not give them the tool to plan their family? It’s their decision to have sex and when or how many children they can afford to raise.

The Catholic Church has a GREAT tool for planning the family!! In fact, it’s safer and more effective than ANY contraception on the market. It’s called, “abstian from sex if you don’t want to make babies”. There is also NFP…which kinda follows the same guidelines.

To see people living on the streets with many children is heartbreaking. But it’s the kind of life many of them can’t run away from because NO ONE CAN PREVENT PEOPLE FROM HAVING SEX!

Heartbreaking as it is, it is the natural consequence of their decision to make a poor choice. We reap what we sow. We can’t prevent people from making bad decisions, but we can encourage them to make WISE decisions and allow them to live out the consequences of their decisions so that they can learn from them.

Our politicians and celebrities even flaunt their trophy mistresses and concubines. Therefore, many unwanted children are born into this world only to die from hunger and disease.

What? What kind of logical fallacy is this, where someone flaunting people as “possessions” makes other people sin or cause the death and disease of someone else in a completely unrelated context? Oh, yeah, it’s called a “non sequitur”.

The RH Bill is not about abortion. It’s about contraception, family planning and maternity health care and education.

No, it’s about abortion and allowing people to skip out on the consequences of their lifestyle choices.

We are the only country that don’t allow the distribution of condoms that also prevent sexually transmitted diseases. All other catholic countries like Italy where the Vatican sits allow it.

So what? Just because others do it makes it right? As my mom used to say, “…if Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you jump off too??”

So why don’t we? It’s obvious that in this country, our lawmakers are influenced by the interference of the church.

Or maybe it’s because we have higher moral standards and we don’t mind letting people live with the consequences of the choices they make? Though, I"m doubting that we really hqave higher moral standards here anymore…but maybe we used to.

They are aware of the “poverty” problem we’ve been having is getting worse and yet, they are still complacent, apathetic and incorrigible in their misguided beliefs. The squatters issue is one of the results of their misguided beliefs.

Would they rather see the sufferings of children in slow painful death…

Is the claim here that all unplanned pregnancies result in death and suffering? And is the claim that preventing conception will stop suffering and death? Sounds like an emotional plea absent any objective fact to back it up. The only suffering and death I can see that would apply here would be in regards to abortion, which defintely should be avoided. And the BEST way to prevent that unwanted pregnacy is, as statistics show us, NOT by making contraception available, but by encouraging people to abstain if they don’t want children, and allowing people to deal with the consequences of their lifestyle choices.

…or prevent the SENSELESS AND IRRESPONSIBLE pro-creation so as to avoid this problem that’s caused by too many unplanned and unwanted children?

That’s another logical inconsistency and an emotion plea with no fact to back it up. I argue that irresponsible procreation is NOT due to unplanned pregnancy…but due to the act that LEADS to unplanned pregnancies…which is SEX. Yep, having sex can lead to pregnacy…and the best way to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is to avoid the act that can cause it. That’s as simple as it gets…and doesn’t cost teh tax-payers anyhing either…thus helping to alleviate the whole poverty deal.

Again, prevention is not abortion!

No problem there! “Prevention” is abstaining from an act that can lead to an undesried effect, as opposed to engaing in that act anyway, and just hoping it turns out well for you.

 

[ahs]

OP, I hope you don’t mind, but this was too good not to blog. I’m going to post this exactly as t appears in my response above (might be a couple days before I get to it though… ) Do you want me to cite anyone as a source for the quotes, or was this anonymous?

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

OP, I hope you don’t mind, but this was too good not to blog. I’m going to post this exactly as t appears in my response above (might be a couple days before I get to it though… ) Do you want me to cite anyone as a source for the quotes, or was this anonymous?

Anonymous.

 

[ahs]

Anonymous.

Many thanks!

 

[lynnanine]

Contraception brings a whole host of other problems.

"Consequences of Artificial Methods

1. Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.

Limits to Man’s Power

Consequently, unless we are willing that the responsibility of procreating life should be left to the arbitrary decision of men, we must accept that there are certain limits, beyond which it is wrong to go, to the power of man over his own body and its natural functions—limits, let it be said, which no one, whether as a private individual or as a public authority, can lawfully exceed. These limits are expressly imposed because of the reverence due to the whole human organism and its natural functions, in the light of the principles We stated earlier, and in accordance with a correct understanding of the “principle of totality” enunciated by Our predecessor Pope Pius XII."

That’s from Humanae Vitae.

 

[vlf7973]

I don’t know if anyone said this yet (I didn’t read the entire thread) but some “contraceptives” are actually abortifacient. Stuff in this category are IUDs, the birth control pill (sometimes), and emergency contracpetion (sometimes).

The abortion industry has redefined “pregnancy” to begin at implantation rather than conception, and redefined “abortion” to mean “termination of [redefined] pregnancy” rather than “termination of the child’s life”.

Under these new defintions, a drug that prevents implantation is considered a “contraceptive”. But if conception has already occured then these drugs are actually abortifacients, since preventing an already living child from attaching itself to the uterus will directly result in its death.

 

[marymary1975]

My refutal to that argument is very simple: if contraception diminishes the numbers of abortion, and if we live in society where contraception is easily available to women and PP is giving free contraception to women, then how come half of the women that get abortions cite as reason for the unwanted pregnancy that they were NOT using contraception. If the argument that contraception is prevention then half of abortions should not be happening so obviously there is something wrong with that argument.

Truth is that contraception promotes irresponsible behavior. Women are made to believe that now because there is contraception they can go out and have sex any time with anyone. it disacosiates in the brain the link between pregnancy and sex, so they have more sex irresponsibly and of course unwanted pregnancy rates go up.

 

[djames99]

This is why the Catholic Church uses the “don’t go there” approach to instruction. Put a fire in front of some people, and tell them it is hot, and some will put their fingers in it regardless.
If we obey the original law, then we do not need to worry about the consequences of disobeying it. If we do not, then we can not count on His providence.

There’s an added bonus in giving God the benefit of the doubt. If we follow instruction to the letter, then now that we are in God’s favor he will assist us in the proper raising of children, even if the situation looks dire.