How do you resolve this problem?

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Pallas_Athene

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God’s omniscience means that God knows everything, past, present and future. God also knows everything that is merely possible, even if it will never be actualized. These are not my inventions, the Catholic dogmas assert it. The dogmas also say that God’s knowledge does not depend on extra-divine things, in other words God does not know everything because he “observes” the actions. On the other hand, humans are supposed to have free will, and that means that God’s knowledge does not decide what we do.

As such, we have two sets of events: God’s knowledge and our free actions. According to the dogmas and the catechism, neither one “causes” the other, and yet there is a perfect one-to-one correspondence between them.

What kind of explanation can you offer for this correspondance?

Here is the list of dogmans I was referring to. jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm
  1. God’s knowledge is infinite. (De fide.)
  2. God’s knowledge is purely and simply actual.
  3. God’s knowledge is subsistent
  4. God’s knowledge is comprehensive
  5. God’s knowledge is independent of extra-divine things
  6. The primary and formal object of the Divine Cognition is God Himself. (Scientia contemplationis)
  7. God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De fide.)
  8. God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis). (De fide.)
  9. By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De fide.)
 
Pallas_Athene said:
God’s omniscience means that God knows everything, past, present and future. God also knows everything that is merely possible, even if it will never be actualized. These are not my inventions, the Catholic dogmas assert it. The dogmas also say that God’s knowledge does not depend on extra-divine things, in other words God does not know everything because he “observes” the actions. On the other hand, humans are supposed to have free will, and that means that God’s knowledge does not decide what we do.

As such, we have two sets of events: God’s knowledge and our free actions. According to the dogmas and the catechism, neither one “causes” the other, and yet there is a perfect one-to-one correspondence between them.

What kind of explanation can you offer for this correspondance?

Here is the list of dogmans I was referring to. jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm
  1. God’s knowledge is infinite. (De fide.)
  2. God’s knowledge is purely and simply actual.
  3. God’s knowledge is subsistent
  4. God’s knowledge is comprehensive
  5. God’s knowledge is independent of extra-divine things
  6. The primary and formal object of the Divine Cognition is God Himself. (Scientia contemplationis)
  7. God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De fide.)
  8. God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis). (De fide.)
  9. By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De fide.)
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Just because He knows everything we will choose in advance, does that then mean He violates the free will He gave us and force our choices on us.

Dt 30: 19 …I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live…,

We really do have choices. And we really do make them from our free will…
 
Pallas Athene

I see you’ve really studied the subject; you know all the theological words and all.

It’s really very simple:

God knows everything that is going to happen!

He KNOWS what you’re going to choose.

It seems really easy to me. Am I missing something??

God bless you
Fran
 
I am sorry, but so far you both missed the point. If God’s knowledge is not CAUSED by our actions, and our actions are not CAUSED by God’s knowledge… then how is it possible that God’s knowledge has an exact, precise, one-to-one correspondence to our actions?

The simple explanation would be that God observes our actions (and possible future actions) and by observing them he knows about them. Simple and logical… but this would make God’s knowledge contingent upon our actions, and since God is “simple”, his knowledge cannot be separated from his essence, that would make God’s essence contingent upon us… and the dogmas DENY this.

The other simple explanation would be that God’s knowledge is primary (the dogmas say so) and our actions are CAUSED by that knowledge, which would make us “puppets on a string”, simply playing out what God already knows. That would DENY the existence of any "free will’.

But these are both denied. So how is it possible that God’s knowledge and our actions are in perfect synch?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
God’s omniscience means that God knows everything, past, present and future. God also knows everything that is merely possible, even if it will never be actualized. These are not my inventions, the Catholic dogmas assert it. The dogmas also say that God’s knowledge does not depend on extra-divine things, in other words God does not know everything because he “observes” the actions. On the other hand, humans are supposed to have free will, and that means that God’s knowledge does not decide what we do.

As such, we have two sets of events: God’s knowledge and our free actions. According to the dogmas and the catechism, neither one “causes” the other, and yet there is a perfect one-to-one correspondence between them.

What kind of explanation can you offer for this correspondance?

Here is the list of dogmans I was referring to. jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm
  1. God’s knowledge is infinite. (De fide.)
  2. God’s knowledge is purely and simply actual.
  3. God’s knowledge is subsistent
  4. God’s knowledge is comprehensive
  5. God’s knowledge is independent of extra-divine things
  6. The primary and formal object of the Divine Cognition is God Himself. (Scientia contemplationis)
  7. God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De fide.)
  8. God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis). (De fide.)
  9. By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De fide.)
Click to expand...
If you were suddenly given knowledge of future events-involving a friend, say-would that make you the cause of those events? Or if you invented the automobile, would that make you the cause of all automobile accidents? If you invented the automobile and foresaw the poor choices made by drivers that would result in accidents, would* that* make you the cause of those accidents? If you created the drivers, and foresaw their poor choices, would that make you the* cause* of those choices? If, OTOH, a foreseer or inventor or creator were taken out of the picture altogether, would humans then for some reason suddenly become morally responsible for their own actions, with free will operative, where beforehand they weren’t?
 
DavidFilmer said:
It’s not one to one - it is one to many because God also knows what we will NOT do.
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That is nitpicking. For every action we do NOT do, there is a corresponding knowledge on God’s part that we shall NOT perform that action. If you prefer, there is a “huge” knowledge on God’s part, and there are all the actions and inactions on our part. And there is a “perfect mapping” of our actions and inactions into God’s knowledge. Moreover, there is also a perfect knowledge of God, which encompasses ALL the other actions and inactions of every living and non-living objects in the universe.

But that is NOT the question of this thread. How is it possible that there is a perfect correspondence between God’s knowledge and our actions (or inactions) without either one causing the other? THAT is the question. Is there an answer?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
I am sorry, but so far you both missed the point. If God’s knowledge is not CAUSED by our actions, and our actions are not CAUSED by God’s knowledge… then how is it possible that God’s knowledge has an exact, precise, one-to-one correspondence to our actions?
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Doesn’t this assume that direct causation is the only way to get a one-to-one ratio? Because I think that would be a false assumption.

There is probably a one-to-one ratio between people who have stood still on the surface of the moon and people who have walked there. But neither one causes the other. Perhaps, similarly, there is a one-to-one ratio of our actions and God’s foreknowledge, even while neither one causes the other. Does that resolve your difficulty?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
That is nitpicking. For every action we do NOT do, there is a corresponding knowledge on God’s part that we shall NOT perform that action. If you prefer, there is a “huge” knowledge on God’s part, and there are all the actions and inactions on our part. And there is a “perfect mapping” of our actions and inactions into God’s knowledge. Moreover, there is also a perfect knowledge of God, which encompasses ALL the other actions and inactions of every living and non-living objects in the universe.

But that is NOT the question of this thread. How is it possible that there is a perfect correspondence between God’s knowledge and our actions (or inactions) without either one causing the other? THAT is the question. Is there an answer?
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Let us imagine that God has us on surveilance. So he’s got all our actions. Now let’s imagine that he watches the show a couple times later. By the second watching He knows what we are going to do before we do it. So then let’s go ahead and have him watch the show at his own pace a third time. This time we think we are in the now, but God already knows the future.

But then I think God would kinda be cheating if he did it that way. 😉

The other possibility is if time is infinite, maybe we’ve all done these same things on Earth before an infinite number of times? Maybe him watching the Earth turn is like watching an old rerun?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
I am sorry, but so far you both missed the point. If God’s knowledge is not CAUSED by our actions, and our actions are not CAUSED by God’s knowledge… then how is it possible that God’s knowledge has an exact, precise, one-to-one correspondence to our actions?
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I’m intrigued by your assertion of a ‘one-to-one correspondence’. What does this mean to you? Are you being (mathematically) precise in your use here, or are you simply trying to point out that every human action is known by God?
The simple explanation would be that God observes our actions (and possible future actions) and by observing them he knows about them. Simple and logical… but this would make God’s knowledge contingent upon our actions
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No. Our actions are contingent on our existence, which is contingent on God creating us. God and His knowledge cannot be simultaneously necessary and contingent; your argument starts falling apart with this assertion you’re making.
, and since God is “simple”, his knowledge cannot be separated from his essence, that would make God’s essence contingent upon us… and the dogmas DENY this.
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So… God’s knowledge of all of creation, and all that happens in it, does not change. In other words, although God has “knowledge of vision”, it is unlike human vision: it does not develop over time and sequentially. God’s “knowledge of vision” exists timelessly, and therefore, does not violate His simplicity nor makes Him contingent upon us.
how is it possible that God’s knowledge and our actions are in perfect synch?
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Because he knows them timelessly, as He knows all He has created.
 
dmar198 said:
Doesn’t this assume that direct causation is the only way to get a one-to-one ratio? Because I think that would be a false assumption.

There is probably a one-to-one ratio between people who have stood still on the surface of the moon and people who have walked there. But neither one causes the other. Perhaps, similarly, there is a one-to-one ratio of our actions and God’s foreknowledge, even while neither one causes the other. Does that resolve your difficulty?
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Excellent answer. 🙂 It was worth to wait for it.

But it does not resolve the problem. I intentionally left out the full analysis. The number of people “walking” and “standing still” is exactly the same (as you said), and neither one “caused” the other. But there IS an external causative factor - NASA - which caused the people to be transported to the Moon, where they exercised their freedom of staying still, and walking around.

To give another illustration let’s consider the following example: “There is a strong correlation (which is not causation, as we all know) between the average height of the people in a country (in Europe!) and their religious affiliation. Taller people tend to be more Protestant, while shorter people tend to be more Catholic”. (No, this is not a joke.) Now, obviously the religion does not “cause” the height, nor does the height “cause” the religion. So what is the factor which causes the strong correlation? (Can you guess?) The solution is obvious. In the Northern countries of Europe people tend to be taller and Protestantism is more prevalent. In the Southern countries of Europe, people and not as tall, and more people are catholic. So it is possible to have a correlation and/or a causation without a direct causation between the two phenomena, but we must find the external causative agent.

As such the next step in the analysis is that there COULD BE some external causative agent, which causes both God’s knowledge and our actions (or inactions) to correspond to each other. But that cannot be accepted either. It would be the “worst” of the possible solutions, God would not be sovereign and we would be puppets on a string.

So, I guess, we need to dig further for the explanation. Please, keep going.
 
Trident_H said:
Let us imagine that God has us on surveilance. So he’s got all our actions. Now let’s imagine that he watches the show a couple times later. By the second watching He knows what we are going to do before we do it. So then let’s go ahead and have him watch the show at his own pace a third time. This time we think we are in the now, but God already knows the future.

But then I think God would kinda be cheating if he did it that way. 😉

The other possibility is if time is infinite, maybe we’ve all done these same things on Earth before an infinite number of times? Maybe him watching the Earth turn is like watching an old rerun?
Click to expand...
Well, that does not solve the problem. It is not the cheating that is problematic.

The problem is that this would make God’s knowledge CONTINGENT upon our actions. And the “de fide” dogmas say otherwise. Observe:

God’s knowledge cannot be separated from his essence (God is simple).
If God’s knowledge would be contingent upon OBSERVING our actions, then this knowledge would be contingent, too - and as such God would be contingent.

And that is contradicted by the dogmas.
 
Gorgias said:
I’m intrigued by your assertion of a ‘one-to-one correspondence’. What does this mean to you? Are you being (mathematically) precise in your use here, or are you simply trying to point out that every human action is known by God?
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Mathematically precise, of course. We perform and action (or refrain from performing an action) and that is KNOWN to God.
Gorgias said:
No. Our actions are contingent on our existence, which is contingent on God creating us. God and His knowledge cannot be simultaneously necessary and contingent; your argument starts falling apart with this assertion you’re making.
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The catholic dogmas say that God’s knowledge is primary, and as such it is not contingent upon our actions. Yet, our actions are contingent upon our free will - and still there is a perfect, one-to-one correspondence between them.
Gorgias said:
So… God’s knowledge of all of creation, and all that happens in it, does not change. In other words, although God has “knowledge of vision”, it is unlike human vision: it does not develop over time and sequentially. God’s “knowledge of vision” exists timelessly, and therefore, does not violate His simplicity nor makes Him contingent upon us.
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It does not matter. I am not questioning the dogmas, or God’s knowledge, I am looking for the “mechanism” of how this correspondence can exist.
Gorgias said:
Because he knows them timelessly, as He knows all He has created.
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That answers nothing. The “HOW” is still unanswered.

So far we have 3 possible scenarios:
  1. God’s knowledge causes our actions.
  2. Our actions cause God’s knowledge.
  3. Both God’s knowledge AND our actions are caused by some external causative agent.
All three must be discarded. So is there something else?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
Mathematically precise, of course. We perform and action (or refrain from performing an action) and that is KNOWN to God.

The catholic dogmas say that God’s knowledge is primary, and as such it is not contingent upon our actions. Yet, our actions are contingent upon our free will - and still there is a perfect, one-to-one correspondence between them.

It does not matter. I am not questioning the dogmas, or God’s knowledge, I am looking for the “mechanism” of how this correspondence can exist.

That answers nothing. The “HOW” is still unanswered.

So far we have 3 possible scenarios:
  1. God’s knowledge causes our actions.
  2. Our actions cause God’s knowledge.
  3. Both God’s knowledge AND our actions are caused by some external causative agent.
All three must be discarded. So is there something else?
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The only other possibility is that it is really all my fault. I apologize for doing that to everyone. Sorry. 😛
 
Pallas_Athene said:
Mathematically precise, of course. We perform and action (or refrain from performing an action) and that is KNOWN to God.
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OK. Everything that exists in the universe is known by God; everything that every existing entity does (or does not do) is known by God. Good enough start…
The catholic dogmas say that God’s knowledge is primary
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Are you getting that from this: “The primary and formal object of the Divine Cognition is God Himself. (Scientia contemplationis)”…? If so, you’re over-reaching; this line does not assert anything about the entirety of God’s knowledge, as you seem to be implying here.
So far we have 3 possible scenarios:
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  1. Our actions cause God’s knowledge.
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All three must be discarded.
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You haven’t successfully made the case that #2 must be discarded. If God knows everything that happens in the universe – and His knowledge is timeless, since He is eternal and outside of the temporal framework – then how does that part of His knowledge that proceeds from His act of creation present a logical problem? After all, it’s not like He has to ‘wait’ in order for our actions to ‘happen’, before He knows what the actions will be. But, I’m guessing that temporal sequencing isn’t your problem here, right? It’s strictly a matter of causation. The only thing I can imagine is that you’re presuming that the only source of God’s knowledge is Divine Cognition. 🤷
 
Once again, I agree with gorgias (from other posts).

I know my answer is simplistic but here goes:

It’s great to intellectualize what we believe every now and again. Keeps the 'ole brain on its toes. But I think we could go a bit overboard with all this. I mean, is it necessary to understand everything to its most minute point?

Can we truly understand the trinity? Predestination (or lack thereof).?

God is God. If we understood God, we’d be God! He knows all. He created the actual philosophical question Pallas Athene is concerned with.

“The Learned Astronomer”. If you know tooooo much about the moon, it’s not so romantic anymore. Not that we should shut our brain off and not think. But I believe there comes a time to maybe just stop and just love that God became one of us so that we could learn more to become like him (the divine nature).

I feel like I’m interrupting the conversation. And everyone on this forum is so nice. Sorry.

God bless you all
Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Once again, I agree with gorgias (from other posts).

I know my answer is simplistic but here goes:

It’s great to intellectualize what we believe every now and again. Keeps the 'ole brain on its toes. But I think we could go a bit overboard with all this. I mean, is it necessary to understand everything to its most minute point?

Can we truly understand the trinity? Predestination (or lack thereof).?

God is God. If we understood God, we’d be God! He knows all. He created the actual philosophical question Pallas Athene is concerned with.

“The Learned Astronomer”. If you know tooooo much about the moon, it’s not so romantic anymore. Not that we should shut our brain off and not think. But I believe there comes a time to maybe just stop and just love that God became one of us so that we could learn more to become like him (the divine nature).

I feel like I’m interrupting the conversation. And everyone on this forum is so nice. Sorry.

God bless you all
Fran
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Loved your post Fran–it made me laugh. Thanks! 👍
 
Pallas_Athene said:
I am sorry, but so far you both missed the point. If God’s knowledge is not CAUSED by our actions, and our actions are not CAUSED by God’s knowledge… then how is it possible that God’s knowledge has an exact, precise, one-to-one correspondence to our actions?

The simple explanation would be that God observes our actions (and possible future actions) and by observing them he knows about them. Simple and logical… but this would make God’s knowledge contingent upon our actions, and since God is “simple”, his knowledge cannot be separated from his essence, that would make God’s essence contingent upon us… and the dogmas DENY this.

The other simple explanation would be that God’s knowledge is primary (the dogmas say so) and our actions are CAUSED by that knowledge, which would make us “puppets on a string”, simply playing out what God already knows. That would DENY the existence of any "free will’.

But these are both denied. So how is it possible that God’s knowledge and our actions are in perfect synch?
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It is your premise that is faulty and misses the point.

Free will: A gift from God

The power of the will to determine itself and to act of itself, without compulsion from within or coercion from without. It is the faculty of an intelligent being to act or not act, to act this way or another way, and is therefore essentially different from the operations of irrational beings that merely respond to a stimulus and are conditioned by sensory objects
 
Pallas,

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that God’s “knowledge of vision” is precisely the knowledge that comes from observing the actions of free creatures, albeit from a timeless perspective. That’s why it’s called that. So the premise that God cannot have (some) knowledge that’s dependent on the actions of creatures is false.

If you think about it, that only makes sense. If God had never created the universe, He would not have that knowledge, since it’s specifically the knowledge of what actually does happen. So that knowledge cannot be of the same inherent, independent kind as His knowledge of Himself or of all possible things. It is, if nothing else, dependent on His own free decision to create.

Usagi
 
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