How do you respond to abortion and rape/abuse?

[DarkLight]

Not just “what’s the answer.” We all know the answer. But how do you respond? How do you answer a woman who’s afraid for her life, but isn’t confident enough yet to leave? Or isn’t sure she could survive on her own with ptsd and no job? Or is afraid to leave the children she has born with an abuser?

I’ve talked to these people before. I remember, talking to a woman who had gotten pregnant in a severe manic state, who was afraid her abusive parent (upon whom she was financially dependent due to her health and inability to acquire insurance) would injure her or throw her out on the street. What do you say?

 

[JRKH]

I wish I had a good answer for you on this. Sadly I don’t.
Every case is unique so how one responds specifically will depend on a number of factors.
I would say though that generally one needs to respond, calmly, with Love and encouragement. Try to be a stabilizing force in the person’s life. Let them see you as a “rock” - someone solid, not judgmental, willing to listen, supportive and honest.
Pray for them and with them.

Best I can do for now…

Peace
James

 

[Nelka]

There is no excuse for abortion.

There is no reason to commit murder.

In the case of rape why punish the baby for something the man did?

 

[DarkLight]

There is no excuse for abortion.

There is no reason to commit murder.

In the case of rape why punish the baby for something the man did?

Read the examples I gave. I’m not making stuff up. I have spoken to a woman who was afraid she might be killed - in this country - for being pregnant. I’ve known girls barely over 18 who were terrified they would be thrown out of their houses for being pregnant, or forced to submit to unhelpful and blaming “counseling.”

Even without that, the woman may very well feel that she is being punished for her abuse by being pregnant. Depression and even suicidal ideation are real and common reactions to abuse in general, something that pregnancy may very well exacerbate. I lived through abuse, barely - I can’t imagine making it through a pregnancy without feeling like it was 9 months of having my body invaded by something I did not want. Innocent or not I can understand how deep a violation it would be.

We need an answer for how to actually talk to women in this situation. Not just simple “well you can’t have an abortion” to someone who is deeply struggling.

 

[Jared2914]

As Jesus taught us, the best response is love. Be comforting and gentle as you speak with her. Counsel her to the best of your ability. Show her your love for her unborn child. Appeal to her own love for her unborn child. One way to do this is to talk about the endless possibilities for her child. He or she could be the next great scientist or doctor or even a saint. Now that she loves her child, the next business would be dealing with those around her that don’t want the child. There probably is not much you can do here, but a commitment you can make to her is to be there every step of the way. By this I mean be ready to counsel her at any time, so she can get over all of her fears and worries. Finally, pray for her because only she can make this big decision.

 

[Amandil]

One of the first responses I have towards any suggestion that abortion is a valid decision in the case of a rape is that you have no right to punish the child for the sins of the rapist. That by aborting the child you’re doing the very thing which was done to you, namely victimizing an innocent person.

What makes abortion worse is that you’re killing the child, as well as destroying the evidence of the rape.

Also, there’s the counter-argument to the pro-abortion claim of “my body-my choice”. The truth is exactly the opposite; not only do we not own our bodies (thry are a gift to us from God), neither do they own the body growing inside their womb.

I think those are as good of starting points as any.

 

[St_Francis]

Is killing someone the answer?

Many answer no, it is not. And so they hae done something about it. There are organizations all over to help victims of domestic abuse and women who are pregnant and alone.

If you run into many of these cases, it might be a good idea to learn more about the resources in your area so you can refer the woman to those who can help her live and improve her life rather than those who will mask the problem by killing her child.

I also imagine that most of these women are not wealthy. The ACA seems to have expanded Medicaid in many states to cover all those who are below 138% of poverty.

And any time you find yourself in the position of counseling people at a point which is over your head, it may be a good idea to tell them you want to help, but the best way you can help is by helping them get to a place which can help them more than you can. There seem to be some serious psychological issues here which need more help than most of us can give.

May God bless you for your concern and desire to help these women.

 

[DarkLight]

I was definitely thinking from the perspective of people who deal with domestic violence. It’s a complicated issue. Very often women are afraid to leave

And I think we do need a real answer to the psychological aspect. The child may be innocent, but so is the woman. To have a child inside of you that you did not want, that was put there by force against your will - I think we could at least understand how a woman could feel that it was wrong.

To say “it’s not your body” at that time…I’m not even sure how to explain that one. Perhaps in a normal case, but to say that to someone already violated by another taking her body and using it for his own will, just seems like the wrong answer at that time.

 

[Catolico65]

This is a challenging concept. Nonetheless and ironically, these minority event cases are typically projected by the child sacrifices as a reason to justify on demand murders.

Even more ironically is that when the sacrificers do get “therapeutic sacrifices” approved they instantly move to the logical next step to try to de-stigmatize on demand sacrifices. This is a well known fact and in fact has been used and is being used in Colombia and the Dominican Republic where I live.

Since it is a well know fact that those who support child sacrifice aren’t interested in protecting innocent life, it becomes clear the objective of this argument is a means to an end only.

If anybody would like to verify my statements please look up Profamilia and their actions to legalize child sacrifice in Latin America.

 

[YADA]

Not just “what’s the answer.” We all know the answer. But how do you respond? How do you answer a woman who’s afraid for her life, but isn’t confident enough yet to leave? Or isn’t sure she could survive on her own with ptsd and no job? Or is afraid to leave the children she has born with an abuser?

I’ve talked to these people before. I remember, talking to a woman who had gotten pregnant in a severe manic state, who was afraid her abusive parent (upon whom she was financially dependent due to her health and inability to acquire insurance) would injure her or throw her out on the street. What do you say?

First of all - the help the woman needs is not to get an abortion so she can stay in the horrible existence she is in … think about it … the abortion would only enable those who are abusing her to continue to do so … you would be consigning her to remain with her abusers.

There are homes for women to go to and live … live until her child is born and after the birth … there are people who will help her with learning to live independent of her abuser… additionally they will assist her in keeping the child or to help her find adoptive parents … she will be afforded the an assistance to learn job skills, obtain a high school diploma, etc …

Women can become independent and self sufficient without killing her child … you will never help a woman by taking her innocent child’s life

 

[Catolico65]

First of all - the help the woman needs is not to get an abortion so she can stay in the horrible existence she is in … think about it … the abortion would only enable those who are abusing her to continue to do so … you would be consigning her to remain with her abusers.

There are homes for women to go to and live … live until her child is born and after the birth … there are people who will help her with learning to live independent of her abuser… additionally they will assist her in keeping the child or to help her find adoptive parents … she will be afforded the an assistance to learn job skills, obtain a high school diploma, etc …

Women can become independent and self sufficient without killing her child … you will never help a woman by taking her innocent child’s life

 

[Tony_the_mad]

Not just “what’s the answer.” We all know the answer. But how do you respond? How do you answer a woman who’s afraid for her life, but isn’t confident enough yet to leave? Or isn’t sure she could survive on her own with ptsd and no job? Or is afraid to leave the children she has born with an abuser?

I’ve talked to these people before. I remember, talking to a woman who had gotten pregnant in a severe manic state, who was afraid her abusive parent (upon whom she was financially dependent due to her health and inability to acquire insurance) would injure her or throw her out on the street. What do you say?

You just listen. I wish I could tell you what to say, but people (everyone not just those we disagree with) don’t hear things that contradict their beliefs and could take offense for reasons we could not possibly imagine. This is especially true when they are under great stress. Anything that you could say could just as likely make things worse as better.

I wish I could point you to some quality organization that helps women in such circumstances, but too many of them have a political or religious goal that overrides the importance of the mission of helping out the woman (and child) in need. (We will help you but…) That is true for both the right and the left. The Catholic Church, IMHO, is one of the few institutions that has the right intentions for both the mother and the baby, but she does not have the resources, (either in money or people) to deal with the problem as it should be dealt with.

So listen and pray. Pray for her and for all of them and their children. And pray for all of our souls. For, like the rich man with Lazarus at his doorstep we have ignored these women (and even the individual babies killed by abortion). Too many on the right see only a potential monster and too many on the left care only about the choice of the woman who want to have an abortion and not about the choices of those who know that abortion is wrong.

I wish I had some useful advice for you, but the only thing I seem to be capable of is ranting against both sides for letting this happen. When elephants fight it is the grass that suffers. (or when an elephant fights a donkey ) Even now I am fighting the urge to lay in on both the liberals and the conservatives for pitting the weak against the weakest.

Pope Francis is right to emphasize compassion. If we fix the little things (like compassion for all but especially for the weak) then the bigger things (like abortion) will naturally fix themselves. But I worry that it is too little too late, but that may be due to my weakness of faith.

Show compassion and love through words and actions and all else will fall in place with prayer and patience.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

This is a challenging concept. Nonetheless and ironically, these minority event cases are typically projected by the child sacrifices as a reason to justify on demand murders.

Even more ironically is that when the sacrificers do get “therapeutic sacrifices” approved they instantly move to the logical next step to try to de-stigmatize on demand sacrifices. This is a well known fact and in fact has been used and is being used in Colombia and the Dominican Republic where I live.

Since it is a well know fact that those who support child sacrifice aren’t interested in protecting innocent life, it becomes clear the objective of this argument is a means to an end only.

If anybody would like to verify my statements please look up Profamilia and their actions to legalize child sacrifice in Latin America.

I applaud your arguments for their veracity. They are frightfully true. But let us not forget that even your argument is a means to an end. That end is the protection and helping of both the mother and the child and indeed all who are hurting.

To a woman who is hurting your message and in particular your tone give the appearance your ends is not compassion toward her and her child but to defending your philosophy.

I apologize if I am being rude to you. Indeed, there are more than a few people even on this page that have said worse, but I haven’t responded. Perhaps it is because I feel a closer kinship to your lines of thought that I feel more inclined to respond. It is not our enemies that defeat us nor even our allies that are too soft but our friends who take the argument too far or in the wrong direction.

 

[DarkLight]

I know I mentioned this before, but…

The horror of rape and abuse is in the violation of autonomy. It’s not the sexual nature - it’s about having one person behave in a way that says “your body is for me to use how I wish, no matter what you want or choose.” Addressing abortion in that context is difficult.

The child is innocent. But there is a real sense in which its presence is an ongoing violation, something a woman is forced to bear within her body despite neither willing it nor taking any act aimed to cause it. And it seems like the current dialogue has no place to acknowledge and handle that.

 

[Catolico65]

I applaud your arguments for their veracity. They are frightfully true. But let us not forget that even your argument is a means to an end. That end is the protection and helping of both the mother and the child and indeed all who are hurting.

To a woman who is hurting your message and in particular your tone give the appearance your ends is not compassion toward her and her child but to defending your philosophy.

I apologize if I am being rude to you. Indeed, there are more than a few people even on this page that have said worse, but I haven’t responded. Perhaps it is because I feel a closer kinship to your lines of thought that I feel more inclined to respond. It is not our enemies that defeat us nor even our allies that are too soft but our friends who take the argument too far or in the wrong direction.

It is true the OP’s argument and mine are a means to an end. From there the difference ends. My purpose is to save lives and the OP’s argument is used to end lives, it is that simple.

Regarding women in these situations, the Catholic and Christian churches has plenty of resources for theses women so there really is no need to try to establish a moral justification for murder. Finally, it is not logical to create more evil by supposedly diminishing less evil.

 

[St_Francis]

Darklight,
I get the feeling that we are trying to give you–the “counselor”–the information to strengthen you in your discussion with a woman who is in one of these situations, but that what you really want is more of what we would say if we were the “counselors.” Do I have that right?

In one way, I don’t think we can say how to respond in a particular situation because it depends on what the woman in question is saying. In situations like this, listening is the most important thing; asking questions is the next most important thing.*

One thing to remember is that bad things do happen to good people. Good people sometimes have to live with the results of another person’s bad actions.

You posit a woman who is pregnant as the result of rape. Suppose instead she were paralyzed? Sge would have to live with the reminder of that crime for the rest of her life. Since we would be unable to “fix” that, what would we do? Would we not try to help her to come to terms with her situation, help her release her anger and bitterness and vengefulness? Certainly!*

Suppose the rapist injured an organ which could be transplanted, or without the transplant, she would need to be hooked up to a machine? Would she have some sort of right to kill someone else for their organ in order to “fix” her situation?

In the case of a woman pregnant by rape, society has told her she can “fix” her temporary problem by killing the other innocent victim of the crime! In her anguish, she may consider this “solution,” but should we not instead treat her as we would the paralyzed victim?*

All too often we chose the easy way of a superficial solution rather than the hard work of a deeper, more personally challenging solution. To steer someone away from vengefulness is hard. To drive them to an abortion clinic is easy. But in the long run, from the eternal point of view, which is better?

 

[DarkLight]

It is true the OP’s argument and mine are a means to an end. From there the difference ends. My purpose is to save lives and the OP’s argument is used to end lives, it is that simple.

Regarding women in these situations, the Catholic and Christian churches has plenty of resources for theses women so there really is no need to try to establish a moral justification for murder. Finally, it is not logical to create more evil by supposedly diminishing less evil.

I think you mistake the purpose of the thread.

This sort of thread is not aimed at creating or dealing with arguments. It’s aimed at dealing with actual situations containing actual people. I was not presenting arguments at all in my posts . Like I said, we all know the “answer” - but what is hard to say is how to handle that consequence in the moment when you are actually speaking to that woman or to her family. How do we show our love and compassion in a situation where the pregnancy is, in a very real sense, a wrong.

I ask because I know a lot of things don’t help. I can agree that it shouldn’t be “my body my choice” - but I also know that a certain part of recovery from abuse is asserting your right to your own body. Or you may say that pregnancies are all gifts from God - but to someone in that situation that’s going to sound awfully like “God wanted you to be raped.”

Darklight,
I get the feeling that we are trying to give you–the “counselor”–the information to strengthen you in your discussion with a woman who is in one of these situations, but that what you really want is more of what we would say if we were the “counselors.” Do I have that right?

Right, this.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

I think you mistake the purpose of the thread.

This sort of thread is not aimed at creating or dealing with arguments. It’s aimed at dealing with actual situations containing actual people. I was not presenting arguments at all in my posts . Like I said, we all know the “answer” - but what is hard to say is how to handle that consequence in the moment when you are actually speaking to that woman or to her family. How do we show our love and compassion in a situation where the pregnancy is, in a very real sense, a wrong.

I ask because I know a lot of things don’t help. I can agree that it shouldn’t be “my body my choice” - but I also know that a certain part of recovery from abuse is asserting your right to your own body. Or you may say that pregnancies are all gifts from God - but to someone in that situation that’s going to sound awfully like “God wanted you to be raped.”

Right, this.

By the way, thanks for this thread. It has been very thought provoking for me at least.

 

[YADA]

What do you say to someone trapped in the is situation?

Really, its not what you say - its what you say and do … a woman trapped in this situation needs someone to help her escape the situation … and there are plenty of organizations and places for someone to receive the assistance they need …

The woman in your scenario needs someone to lovingly care for her and her unborn child … you cannot help someone in this situation by assisting them in killing the innocent child …

You offer her encouragement to face the real issue - being victimized by an abuser …
You offer encouragement for her to make the decision to stop being a victim …
You encourage her to face her future without becoming a victimizer …

You offer real help - in removing her from her current living situation to a place that is safe …

My great uncle was conceived during a rape … my great grandmother’s life was very hard and she lived during a time when options were very limited and women were often stigmatized …And yet she courageously kept this child - raising him alone for more then 8 years before marrying. His sisters were 10 and 18 years younger then he was. My great uncle’s wife and two daughters never wished he’d never been born … his employees appreciated his success and business acumen. He outlived my grandmother [the sister who was 18 years his junior] and was there to offer her financial assistance during her fight with cancer … I know he never once considered that he would out live her - this small girl who had arrived when he was embarking on adulthood …

My aunt and uncle adopted three little girls - the middle one was placed for adoption because she was a child of incest …And not just my aunt and uncle and my cousins … but her husband and two little girls love her dearly - … in fact - we love all three and they greatly enriched our family.

You cannot help a woman by helping her kill her child - no matter what the circumstances of the conception. To speak or counsel her in any way that diminishes the worth of the child is immoral … to offer help - be it financial, educational, emotional counseling, love and compassion, shelter and real caring alternatives like adoption are all valid … abortion as a solution - never

 

[St_Francis]

Dark Light,
I think first of all that each of the two situations you posited would be handled somewhat differently, as one is an ongoing situation and the other is an event which is finished. So a person caught in one would need a different type of help than the woman caught in the other.

In either case, these are situations which are possibly best dealt with by people with some training in helping women in these situations, and not by people who are not so trained.

As friends, we can listen, which is something many traumatized people need. We can also be supportive of their taking helpful actions, esp those recommended by their counselors (like leaving the &^( who beats them!). Any help we can give in terms of helping them move, providing transportation or a temporary place to stay (if this is safe), is also good.

To discuss plans such as abortion while a woman is in a state of panic and/or in the grip of strong emotions is probably not a good idea. At those times, people often say things they do not mean, and they are also not in a state in which they can hear reason.

In most situations, there would be a time lag between the time of strong emotion and actually having the abortion, and it would be during that time that reason could be brought into conversation. At that time, one can gently bring up some of the points brought up here, or similar points. Having heard them say they were considering an abortion, and some of the reasons why, we may have already prepared ourselves with information to give to the traumatized woman about resources which might be helpful to her.

And of course, we would not help them in that direction. “I will help you move, but I cannot help you get an abortion.”

Hope this helps as a sort of beginning general outline.